"Opposite vampire", "Bunker HQ" and "Sabotage squad"

Hello again.
I have some more or less simple suggestions for the Ostheer. I don't think any of them will break balance, but make ostheer more unique.

First: Opposite Vampire

A halftrack like the vampire, which doesn't lock down in enemy sector but in your own sector. When you lock it down in a sector it will transfer the resources to HQ, even if the territory is disconnected.
Price: Around 250 manpower. Its not a powerfull tool, and very situational. Has no weapons.

Second: Bunker HQ

This one is very simple - but hard to make. Its a mix of the British trucks and the standard HQ. You build a huge bunker (the skin from the mortar bunker can be used.. Will have mortar inside). This bunker will be the HQ, once build. Buildcap of 2! You can build it anywere in connected territory, but once disconnected the new sector will work like when you park the British HQ there. So you can actually build a HQ in a sector (it will NOT lock it down like the Brit truck), and you have your new HQ.
It will cost around 700 manpower and 100 munitions, since it is a very powerfull bunker. It can train "Sdkfz. 9 - famo" and eventually Landsers.

Third: Sabotage squad

Reward for the brandenburgers. Will infiltrate like FJs, and be armed with MP40s. They specialize in sabotage. They can lay demolitions, AI mines and other types of explosives. They ain't powerfull in combat, but they can be used to sabotage and lay traps. Powerfull but require a lot of micro!
Squad is 3 man, and cost 350 MP.

Brandenburgers are meant to have a similar role than the Sabotage squad.

Atm we are discussing the Bunker HQ idea, but we aren't sure if use the mortar bunker model(IMO would be ok :P).

For the Oppostie Vampire, don't know if it is codeable, probably not.

Andreas wrote:

Third: Sabotage squad

Reward for the brandenburgers. Will infiltrate like FJs, and be armed with MP40s. They specialize in sabotage. They can lay demolitions, AI mines and other types of explosives. They ain't powerfull in combat, but they can be used to sabotage and lay traps. Powerfull but require a lot of micro!
Squad is 3 man, and cost 350 MP.

That kinda contradicts itself. MP40s but weak in combat?!

blackbishop wrote:
Brandenburgers are meant to have a similar role than the Sabotage squad.

Good to hear. But as far as i understand it, they parachute in. Then the enemy will knoe they are there and look for them in the exact moment they are deployed  ???

Cireva wrote:
That kinda contradicts itself. MP40s but weak in combat?!

MP40s are good at close range. So if the squad have bad stats, they will be killed even before they can close in - and they are outnumbered badly. But ofc they can take on engis and the like.

Maybe but at least they will have camo; as they paradrop from a JU-52, I think they are not going to need smoke to designate the landing zone. If you hear and see the big plane, then you know now have some new neighbors :P.

One mod made it that you can shoot down the enemy plane, before it can drop paratroopers

Well, in that case I can set up the plane to drop the brandenburgers as survivors where the plane crash if they have not being dropped yet :). Terrific idea Killar ;).

These all modify balance in a their own way, possible gamebreaking

Andreas wrote:
Hello again.
I have some more or less simple suggestions for the Ostheer. I don't think any of them will break balance, but make ostheer more unique.

First: Opposite Vampire

A halftrack like the vampire, which doesn't lock down in enemy sector but in your own sector. When you lock it down in a sector it will transfer the resources to HQ, even if the territory is disconnected.
Price: Around 250 manpower. Its not a powerfull tool, and very situational. Has no weapons.

Players should be able to hold onto their territories if they become disconnected? Sorry, don't think so. If you can't hold your territory and protect it from flanks and cut offs then you need to re-think your play.

Quote
Second: Bunker HQ

This one is very simple - but hard to make. Its a mix of the British trucks and the standard HQ. You build a huge bunker (the skin from the mortar bunker can be used.. Will have mortar inside). This bunker will be the HQ, once build. Buildcap of 2! You can build it anywere in connected territory, but once disconnected the new sector will work like when you park the British HQ there. So you can actually build a HQ in a sector (it will NOT lock it down like the Brit truck), and you have your new HQ.
It will cost around 700 manpower and 100 munitions, since it is a very powerfull bunker. It can train "Sdkfz. 9 - famo" and eventually Landsers.

So, this is like a fortified FHQ basically, only it will have the same capabilities of the regular HQ? Hmm...it's quite costly and producing Famos...I don't like this idea. The british set up system was always broken anyway.

Quote

Third: Sabotage squad

Reward for the brandenburgers. Will infiltrate like FJs, and be armed with MP40s. They specialize in sabotage. They can lay demolitions, AI mines and other types of explosives. They ain't powerfull in combat, but they can be used to sabotage and lay traps. Powerfull but require a lot of micro!
Squad is 3 man, and cost 350 MP.

The 3rd seems like a decent idea. However it seems to resemble both the Partisans and Engineers too closely to be considered. They can infiltrate like Partisans, carry a group of weak SMGs and are a weak unit (Like Engys) and can lay mines and demos (Like Engys).

3 men for a call in is sorta scarce, and 350 for a squad that can just lay mines and has no other practical use is a bit pricey. Perhaps you may want to reconsider the idea slightly.

I kinda like the "Oppisite Vampire" but it guess it screws with gameplay balance :(. But I really love the name ;D


"Oppisite Vampire reporting for duty!"; "Is it oppisite day for Vampire?"

what is the oposite of a vampire anyway? a hipster? a preppy? i wouldnt know.

Cranialwizard wrote:
These all modify balance in a their own way, possible gamebreaking

Hi. I don't think you are right in all of your points, even thougt you are a “balancer”. Here I will explain why:

Cranialwizard wrote:
Players should be able to hold onto their territories if they become disconnected? Sorry, don't think so. If you can't hold your territory and protect it from flanks and cut offs then you need to re-think your play.

250 Manpower is a huge price for a vehicle which can be destroyed by everything above rifles. It will bring some strategical potential like being able to hold a point far from base. But think about: It will still be incredible hard. If the enemy have capped around, we presume the sector is surrounded. So it will be a tight spot – but it will come with some more unconventional strategies which I think is nice. The more dynamic, the better?

Cranialwizard wrote:
So, this is like a fortified FHQ basically, only it will have the same capabilities of the regular HQ? Hmm...it's quite costly and producing Famos...I don't like this idea. The British set up system was always broken anyway.

Building Famos is because its the standard “builder unit” of the Ostheer.

The Brit truck can move. Generate huge amount of resources, locks the sector, costs nothing to move and all the other trucks are incredible cheap.
This bunker cant: Lock down, generate resources, move and its expensive. On the other hand it has a mortar – but the mortar is immobile.

I don't think the Brit truck is broken right now. Why? Because there is balance in the game.,

Cranialwizard wrote:
The 3rd seems like a decent idea. However it seems to resemble both the Partisans and Engineers too closely to be considered. They can infiltrate like Partisans, carry a group of weak SMGs and are a weak unit (Like Engys) and can lay mines and demos (Like Engys).

3 men for a call in is sorta scarce, and 350 for a squad that can just lay mines and has no other practical use is a bit pricey. Perhaps you may want to reconsider the idea slightly.

Well.. i didn't have partisans in my thoughts. But if you follow this logic, the partisans are resembling the FJs waaaay too much.
And BTW: Laying mines and other stuff behind enemy lines, without him knowing, IS a very powerful ability. But since the brandenburges will be like this anyway – i don’t think those is necessary.

Best regards

Last edited February 14, 2012 at 9:42 AM by Andreas

Having sectors cut off is one of the most important aspects of the game. Brits and your proposed reverse Vampire/Lockdown bunker screw around with the basic territory and resource mechanics, causing imbalances that cannot be fixed.

If you read the suggestion you would see the bunker doesn't make lockdown on the sector.

But i think it would be good together with the "fortress troops" doctrine where forward HQs can work in cutted territory.

The doctrines in the preview weren't final, or close to it. The HQs in forward territory is a very impractical doctrine ability and doesn't stay.

Ill' put up a scenario:

1v1 match. One ostheer and one allied faction. As the game proceed the one playing Ostheer puts up a bunker beside one of the points in the corner. This sector is now HQ sector.
His base original base gets overrun, but he still have access to call in units and other stuff b/c the bunker. Because he isn't brit, he will have a hard time getting armor because his original sector (and arrival point) is controlled by the enemy. He will be in a tough situation, but will still be able to give a good fight.

It will not be like the british, where you just pack up your truck and place it on a high point because of the resources. This bunker is used to place you HQ sector in a strategical sector and then play "from there".
As said ealier you can have -two- HQ bunkers at the same time. The first will always be in the start sector like any other nation. If you build another bunker - would you then have two HQ sectors? No you won't. The other one will then "just" become a normal sector with a mortar bunker inside.
And it would be rather stupid to pay such a huge amout of resources for a protected mortar.

Some of the main problems with the britsh trucks are:

They can move in to a sector and lock it down giving a huge amount of resorces at no cost. You will NOT get this problem with the bunker HQ  :)

They can move all over the place. Bunker HQ is out of concrete. Concrete can't move.

They can do it in the initial phases of the game. Bunker HQ cost too much, you cant (or it will at least screw your early game quite badly). The bunker costs extra. A truck is just a new Tier - and therefore isn't much more expensive than it would be anyway.


And seriously, i don't think it will be used much in 1v1. It will be possible to make a strategy with it, but just like the V1. Then why add it, since EF and CoH is aimed for competitive 1v1? B/c a huge part of the players plays huge 3v3 and 4v4 - and this would be a nice addition to those games.


I can agree that the "Opposite vampire" is maybe a bad idea. But i would still fear the vampire waaay more :o


Best regards - Andreas

I didn't say the big concrete bunkers wouldn't be used, only that they will still obey the laws of sector cutoffs and FHQs, and will not lock down the sector.

The FHQ will not obey the law of sector cutoff.

When you build the bunker the bunker WILL BE YOUR HQ

You can be cutoff by cutting off around the HQ sector  - meaning cutting around the sector the HQ is placed in.

OFC the sector can't be captured, since it the new HQ sector. But thats just like building a OP or placing a SC in a sector. Then they can be captured either - but it will not generate extra resources.

I dont see how this, in anyway, will obey the laws?

The british does not obey the laws either. When you place a truck on a high point, it locks the sector. But high points have easy-to-take cutoffs, meaning they can be cutoff from the restt of the map by ONE SINGLE point. It will be the same with this one  :)

No.

Perhaps the Mortar bunker can be a Secondary HQ with its own retreat button. It however cannot be deleted just to make it less abusive.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
No.

I'll second the notion to stop this idea. It just sounds too radical.

That idea is not going to be implemented. Our current FHQ plan sticks to what our balancers have wrote here: it'll be under the cuttoff laws, unless the Improved Communications upgrade from the Fortress Army is purchased.

Hurray! another Ostheer feature revealed.

actually, it was already in an update. the one with doctrines.

It wasn't stated how it was going to be at all, in fact until some days ago it was going to be a normal ambient building ;).

i was talking about the improved communications upgrade, but are you saying the othseers FHQ will be like a bunker or other buildable structures?

Yes, it probably will be buildable.

This thread has Kinda inspired me... I threw together a little something that I like to call the "Stronghold Bunker", made from existing buildings/items only. The image will be posted here: http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7176.msg127536#msg127536

AS for how it would work, I think it would be best to treat it like the Wher/Ami FHQs, with the following exceptions:
> Build limit of 1 (at a time)
> Lock-down the sector (upon building an upgrade for it - radar/com dish on roof or some such), but still obeys sector cut-off effects.
> Limited/specific training - I think this part is already covered, there being only the 'Panzerfusiliers' trainable... I'd like to see other infantry trainable here too (if already unlocked anyway).

~JD

Last edited August 2, 2012 at 1:02 AM by jonarus_drakus