I'm overreliant on MG emplacements vs Wehr as soviets.

Uh.... yeah. I find that whenever I face a hard wehr cpu, (btw for all intents and purposes please consider me a noob    ;D I get overrun early game by mp40 volks, mg42s, and a sniper or two very quickly and I find that any early composition of conscripts, command squad, strelky, snipers, or mortars just gets mowed down extremely quickly. Snipers seem to do the most but I need to be cautious of counter-snipes. Often I lure the enemy sniper out quite easily with an ingenery as bait but My sniper can't kill the advancing mp40 volks quick enough nor can it fight a war by its own. Mortars do something, but don't have an immediate enough shock effect to lift the pin/advance as they are often sniped but I can't get snipers and mortars out at the same time as they are in different areas of the support barracks. Basically, all infantry get mowed by mp40 volks and mg42 with sniper support. I feel that soviets lack a reliable option early on to break or hold this (under any reasonable cost) other than its machine gun emplacement which has bullet resistance. Other factions like u.s. can make snipers AND machine guns AND mortars from just a WSC which gives them good variety to build what they need but especially the HMG as it cheaply and reliably pins down rushing infantry. Brits can circle bren-carriers with vickers mmg or just infantry in the bren-carriers to break a pin OR build a very cheap mg emplacement freeing up their early game resources. I'm just looking for a reliable way to hold this kind of thing. I find that I built MG emplacements at major access points and that's what keeps me alive. In the last game (btw how do you upload a replay on gamereplays.org? I've done it with starcraft II but I can't find the replays folder for EF. Any help? ???) I stayed alive with one mg emplacement and sealed off other points quickly with barbed wire and tank traps. I repaired the mg nest whenever it was damaged at all. I got sturmovie in the hopes that it would break the pin which it semisuccessfully did but combined firepower of mp40s and a sniper inflicted heavy losses. I made minor gains but then he already had pumas and geschutzwagens rolling around. I tried tank hunters but they got shredded by pumas so I tried su-76s which got shredded by the geshutzwagens. I got "men against tanks" and made a few tank hunters squads and barely managed to push away his pumas, geschutzwagens, and ostwinds (with frequent retreats) but I was under constant attack from mortars and mp40 volks, and flame pios, and snipers, and mg42s. (yes I am getting owned...) The only thing keeping me alive now (I was at the edge of my base. No territroy) were the mg emplacements which seemed to be by far the most cost effective way to hold down his infantry and to stop them from repairing his vehicles in combat. I finally won eventually when I got an isu-152 out which pushed back his geshuctzwagens, panzer IVs, and ostwinds with some difficulty but it had tank hunter support. He still had random units crawling all over and when I would attack his base with my isu-152 (sturmovie and mechanics a short while behind) he would keep attacking my base with flame pios and a random geshutzwagen or two. I eventually won by a small margin but I felt it was realy an underhanded way of winning, relying on a call-in of  the isu-152 to win. Basically, what could I have done better? I plan on uploading replay as soon as possible if I can find it!

Last edited January 29, 2012 at 3:30 PM by bopokippo

TL;DR all of it :P

You really shouldn't rely on MG as SU. You play against Hard Comp which could explain why you are having such a problem (Hard and Expert comp have increased MP rate).

If there are too many Volks with MP40s you could use Strelky with PPSH. Or just keep them at range. And if there are too many MGs early on flank them with Conscripts. And be aggresive with the CS squad b/c you want it to get vet fast. And you can also use your engineers as fighting units (although they wont be awfully effective >_<). And you can use molotovs to make things go smoother

Early on there shouldn't be to many MP40 volks because both AI and human players would save that muni for something else.

And as for sniper, use you CS. IIRC it has large detection. Pretend your CS squad is a walking motorcycle :P

K thanks for the advice. I will try it out!
(btw I never knew that hard ai gets increased resources... I thought it was only experts. >_<)

Hard AI: 125% MP Increase
Expert AI: 150% MP Increase

You're wecome BTW ;)

first of all it sounds like your playing compstomp, no-popcap, annilate games. if you play with humans, its much more fun, and will also help you increase your skill. other than that, it sounds like early game you should get a light vehicle, to stop the volks, and snipers. http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=faq this should help you with the replay posting, and then maybe you can get some more experienced advice.

stealthattack1 wrote:
first of all it sounds like your playing compstomp, no-popcap, annilate games. if you play with humans, its much more fun, and will also help you increase your skill. other than that, it sounds like early game you should get a light vehicle, to stop the volks, and snipers. http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=faq this should help you with the replay posting, and then maybe you can get some more experienced advice.

He doesnt have to play PvP games if he doesn't want to ;). Whats fun to you isn't necessarily fun for him :P

And I dont think gamereplays can really help you, considering how they cover vCOH factions and not SU :P. And you cant really get a fast vehicle out unless you control a majority of the fuel. Its not like Axis where your first or second building has vehicles ready to be built. SU is more infantry based early on. Just get your Support Barracks out ASAP. It only cost 35 fuel for a upgrade, which TBH isn't alot.

And you can use Naval Infantry or Partisans if the T1 spam is realy getting you down :P. Have the Partisans go behind MGs and close the distance. And Naval Infantry are better than Volks. If they have MP40s just back up. Or at least try to.

And build a Outpost. Its will help you secure fuel and it alows you to reinforce. So you dont have to keep retreating. Of corse dont get pinned down in you outpost :P

Last edited January 30, 2012 at 1:00 AM by Hookerhunterx

stealthattack1 wrote:
first of all it sounds like your playing compstomp, no-popcap, annilate games. if you play with humans, its much more fun, and will also help you increase your skill. other than that, it sounds like early game you should get a light vehicle, to stop the volks, and snipers. http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=faq this should help you with the replay posting, and then maybe you can get some more experienced advice.

Eh I would like to play with other people but I can't cause my parents won't let me and I agree. I have quite a bit of studies and PvP games for me are far too addicting.
btw I don't believe I would have enough fuel to get a light vehicle out quick enough... :-X

I used to play starcraft II.... I was 4,000 in NA server... but that was another life... ;D

If you want a early vehicle you need to focus on controlling fuel :P. And IDK how much skill you have but a tip you should follow is you dont have to cap in a line (capping the nearest points to your units). Sometimes you just have to rush to a point (high fuel for example) and cap the smaller strategic points later. Dont wait too long though. Often times the strategic points connect your valuable points meaning you cant just cap one high point and move on to attack :P.

Also you shouldn't cap the VPs immediatley. It isnt so important as it is later on when the VPs start ticking odwn to zero. Its more important you secure territory, no VPs. THe comp may do it but you dont have to.

And also I see ALOT of players send ALL of their troops to cap a single point. This doesn't speed up caturing at all so please dont ever do it unless you expect the original unit capping to die (happens when ppl fight for last VPs). Certain units have faster individual capping speeds so take advantage of that too. However some units also have slow capping speeds (mainly PGs). Try not to use these units to cap. If you must, use them to cap small points (VPs, strategic, low muni or fuel)

And use mines. I often forget this but you should try not to. Put them near choke points, near green cover to surprise ur enemy or by captureable points :P

Last edited February 2, 2012 at 1:51 AM by Hookerhunterx

Mines near doors make nasty traps, especially for weapons teams or small squads. It'll pin them giving you a couple seconds delay before they get garrisoned. I once managed to kill an entire MG42 squad because they all clumped near the door and they all died. Free MG for Brits I say.

Incdy mines also make nasty traps in green cover or near doors.

If a incindeary mine explodes next to a buildng but the units are inside, do they still take dmg? Just curious :P

Flames should spread to the house affecting the units on ground level yep

Ok so I'm trying to find a replay folder and I can't seem to find anything. When I open my Company of Heroes Folder, I see the following folders

CoH
DLC1
DLC2
DLC3
Eastern_Front
EF_LauncherData
EF_Updates
Engine
Milesredist
RelicDownloader
RelicOnline
validators
WorldBuilder
WW2


If clicking on the "CoH" Folder I get two more folders, "Engine" and "OPS", both of which lead to really nothing

Clicking on the DLC1, 2, or 3 folders leads me to two folders, "ARchives" and "movies", both of which lead to AVIs of game cutscenes

Clicking on "Eastern_Front" leads me to

Archives
Data
DataAtrrib
DataSoundHigh
DataSoundLow
Locale
Movies

All of which lead to dead-ends.

Any help please!!!!

1- Click Documents
2- Click My Games
3- Click COH
4- Click playback
5- Find your replay ^^

BTW if you wanna upload it, use a upload website or stick it in a Compressed folder (I had to be taught this :P). Its better to upload it to a website like speedyshare.com or Meguploads.com

Last edited February 2, 2012 at 2:00 AM by Hookerhunterx

Hookerhunterx wrote:
1- Click Documents
2- Click My Games
3- Click COH
4- Click playback
5- Find your replay ^^

BTW if you wanna upload it, use a upload website or stick it in a Compressed folder (I had to be taught this :P). Its better to upload it to a website like speedyshare.com or Meguploads.com

Rofl I fail at life.  ;D

dang... they don't take Human VS CPU matches.... bummer

Its ok :P. I had to have 2 ppl tell me the same exact instructions before I understood it (I think both neos and Killar had to explain it to me :P).

If you intend on uploading a game for us to see(which it sounds like u are) I wouldn't mind looking at it (as I'd imagine the balancers dont wanna watch a comp stomp game >_<). Im a medicore player (maybe not even) but I think I can still help a little :D

The EF team doesn't want Player vs CPU game in the replay thread (IIRC). However you could PM it or just upload it here, as its not the replay thread.

nah its like I really want to upload it but for some reason gamereplays.org physically denies accepting Human VS CPU games.... do you know maybe any other replay sites?

I already said :P :

Hookerhunterx wrote:
BTW if you wanna upload it, use a upload website or stick it in a Compressed folder (I had to be taught this :P). Its better to upload it to a website like speedyshare.com or Meguploads.com

Read the entire thing carefully ;).

oh. sorry...
http://www.speedyshare.com/file/dtVeA/2p-smolensk.2012-01-29.00-17-21.rec
I'm not sure if I did this right....

oh and thanks for all the replies people!

I'll tell you in a sec if it worked ;). I'll watch it dont worry :D


Oh BTW you cant upload EF games on GR.org IIRC. They only deal with vCOH things. Although I've never tried it so who's to say ???

Okay I've watched the replay and I saw alot of mistakes :P. But they are fixable.

-You are playing with high resources. This is fun but its not recommend if you ever want to play competively (as in PvP). This isn't really a issue, I thought I'd just point that out

-You ONLY build engineers at first. This is not something you should do! You need main infantry, paticularly your CS. It grants global vet which will be better than any engineer squad  ::)

-You build a support barracks and THs but there are not vehicles. IDK why you do this but please dont :P. You need Conscripts or strelky (and since you were kinda camping)  a sniper.

-You cap a point using multiple squads (which I already said you shouldn't do). This doesn't help at all and only results in loses.

-You litterally pick a doctrine the minute the game starts. You should always wait to see what the enemy does b/c some doctrines elp more than others.

-You literally block off the entrance to the left of your base and let you opponent have all those resources. You shouldn't do this. If it was a real person, you would be giving them a huge advantage. You need to be more aggresive

-You leave the medium fuel untouched and simply go for low points. You yourself said you couldn't get early vehicles cause you could hold on to the resources. Well that meduim fuel would've been pretty helpful early on.

-You float ALOT of resources. Early on you shouldn't float so many reasources. Spend them

- After you repel the enemy you simply sit there, waiting for him to return. Dont do that. Start decapping points and push him off the map.

-You try to kill a Volks squad using a SU-76. This is a AT tank, not the terminator >_<. Use real infantry to kill them, not a AT tank.

-You leave a crap load of MGs lying around. Many ppl complain that SU doesn't have a supression unit. Well theres your chance. You should have recrewwed those weapons. Later on you build another MG. That wouldn't have been necessary if you had simply recrewd a MG

-You make no effort to retake the strategic points, rendering you without muni or fuel. Thats not good. You should try to reconnect your territory, not just leave it out there.

-You dont support your SU-76 tanks. You simply send them out alone to try and kill the enemy's Geschutzwagens. Please support you AT, not just try and go rambo on the enemy >_<. Also its not a smart idea to have Assault gun take on another assault gun. You needed ZiS-3 AT guns

-You many numerous upgrades yet you dont take full advantage of them. You buy a Sturmitove and Men againt tanks upgrade but only buy one of each :( (later you buy more). Those upgrades are expensive. Make the most of them. Also you buy the SU resource upkeep thing (IDK the name). You dont really need that.

-You blob alot. An important idea of COH is using cover, not just charging the enemy. You need to utilize the green cover around you.

-Your mechanics litteraly just sit around doing nothing while your building is being destroyed. There is a reason they have fix ability :P

-You dont attack Pios and Volks with THs. That why they have AT rifles :P, not snipers or MGs. You especially dont attack anything with mechanics >_>

Those are the things I think you did wrong. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure about these mistakes. Try not to make them in the future :)

God damn, I didn't realize my post would be this long >_<

Nah, you can definitely upload PvP EF matched to GR.org... unless they've changed their minds for some bizarre reason? I doubt it.

BurroDiablo wrote:
Nah, you can definitely upload PvP EF matched to GR.org... unless they've changed their minds for some bizarre reason? I doubt it.

Hmm, never knew that :P. Do you still see the SU troops and all just like you would any regular upload or does it get modified ???

BTW your picture doesn't appear :P (I think its called an avatar?)

Hookerhunterx wrote:
Okay I've watched the replay and I saw alot of mistakes :P. But they are fixable.

-You are playing with high resources. This is fun but its not recommend if you ever want to play competively (as in PvP). This isn't really a issue, I thought I'd just point that out

-You ONLY build engineers at first. This is not something you should do! You need main infantry, paticularly your CS. It grants global vet which will be better than any engineer squad  ::)

-You build a support barracks and THs but there are not vehicles. IDK why you do this but please dont :P. You need Conscripts or strelky (and since you were kinda camping)  a sniper.

-You cap a point using multiple squads (which I already said you shouldn't do). This doesn't help at all and only results in loses.

-You litterally pick a doctrine the minute the game starts. You should always wait to see what the enemy does b/c some doctrines elp more than others.

-You literally block off the entrance to the left of your base and let you opponent have all those resources. You shouldn't do this. If it was a real person, you would be giving them a huge advantage. You need to be more aggresive

-You leave the medium fuel untouched and simply go for low points. You yourself said you couldn't get early vehicles cause you could hold on to the resources. Well that meduim fuel would've been pretty helpful early on.

-You float ALOT of resources. Early on you shouldn't float so many reasources. Spend them

- After you repel the enemy you simply sit there, waiting for him to return. Dont do that. Start decapping points and push him off the map.

-You try to kill a Volks squad using a SU-76. This is a AT tank, not the terminator >_<. Use real infantry to kill them, not a AT tank.

-You leave a crap load of MGs lying around. Many ppl complain that SU doesn't have a supression unit. Well theres your chance. You should have recrewwed those weapons. Later on you build another MG. That wouldn't have been necessary if you had simply recrewd a MG

-You make no effort to retake the strategic points, rendering you without muni or fuel. Thats not good. You should try to reconnect your territory, not just leave it out there.

-You dont support your SU-76 tanks. You simply send them out alone to try and kill the enemy's Geschutzwagens. Please support you AT, not just try and go rambo on the enemy >_<. Also its not a smart idea to have Assault gun take on another assault gun. You needed ZiS-3 AT guns

-You many numerous upgrades yet you dont take full advantage of them. You buy a Sturmitove and Men againt tanks upgrade but only buy one of each :( (later you buy more). Those upgrades are expensive. Make the most of them. Also you buy the SU resource upkeep thing (IDK the name). You dont really need that.

-You blob alot. An important idea of COH is using cover, not just charging the enemy. You need to utilize the green cover around you.

-Your mechanics litteraly just sit around doing nothing while your building is being destroyed. There is a reason they have fix ability :P

-You dont attack Pios and Volks with THs. That why they have AT rifles :P, not snipers or MGs. You especially dont attack anything with mechanics >_>

Those are the things I think you did wrong. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure about these mistakes. Try not to make them in the future :)

God damn, I didn't realize my post would be this long >_<

and I bet you didn't think it would be that bad either... hehe  :-[

but I will say in my own defense  ;D that I made some decisions that I don't usually do.

Agree on your point outs on:
engineers
opening of support barracks
capping strategies
picking a doctrine too fast
lack of aggression
floating resources
support for su-76s
some blobbing
mechanics sitting around
recrewing mg42s
maybe SU resource. It helped a little though but maybe not necessary as you said
Generally don't do as pointed out though are:
using cover. I usually put heavy emphasize on cover but in the charges with tank hunters I made it a goal to try and kill the vehicles as they backed away.
Somewhat on the lack of upgrades usage. well for sturmovie I kind of didn't really want to build too many cause of their munitions upkeep but then again that's me being paranoid but I Think a vet3 sturmovie is pretty good at least... not a total waste. The men against tanks, with my 2 main tank hunter squads, was I believe, pivotal to the defeat of the enemy armor
For using tank hunters against infantry, I know they aren't good, but I was using them as an interim solution as my stronger forces were up north.

I don't know but in general, i felt like sending guys to cap around after a repelled offense would thin my line out too much leaving it vulnerable to a concentrated assault and I was paranoid of losing my central foothold which I eventually did. And I understand that the SU-76 is bad against infantry,  but I was using as once again, an interim solution as the stopgap to the counter which never really arrived hehe....
but in general I was trying something new with the armory at first cause my hope was to get fast sturmovie and push back with sturmovie and SU-76s (yes bad idea trying to rely on a call-in) but usually I do a Red Army Mustering Tent followed by a support barracks with a sniper with an eventual early game comp of a sniper and command squad and some strelky.
but back to the main point my mistakes come from me not being able to keep up with the units coming and capping my territory from all sides and well yeah. I just kind of get overwhelmed as I lose territory left and right and struggle to retake it without leaving my original positions far too weak. but good advice! I will definitely use!

Its ok to rely on a call in (a KT is a call in after all :P ) but you need to use it to your full advantage and when its necessary. There where only HTs running around yet you called in SU-76s. I mean, yeah, its AT but the Volks and snipers were a much bigger problem.

Your THs were ok but you shouldn't be charging them at Pumas and Ostwinds. Its death right there. You needed infantry AT guns to repel armor like that effectively (you retreated you TH blob countless times)

Any enemy only has so many units and if you repel all of them then its safe to cap around. One of your main problems was your lack of main infantry. They would have really helped you repel those Volks squads.

And you also left your mortar there to be captured. Try not to do that ;)

You didn't really do that bad :P. All COH players must start somewhere. And even if they do get used to vCOH, SU is pretty different. Overall, I think you need to play a PvP game. Maybe at some point you can find the time to try one out? Im sure lots of ppl would be willing to play with you :D

yeah... I don't know about PvP cause its in tight with my parents cause I got carried away with Starcraft... lol
but I'm pretty sure I could circumvent the system if I hosted a passworded custom game and someone just happened to... plop in per se.... ;)

but ofc, I still need a lot of work before diving in...

NP :). If you ever want to play just let me know. And if you keep practicing you'll eventually learn more. Losing actually helps you learn more. Winning (for me) just makes me a tad cocky and then I lose the next game  :P. So I've learned to lose more XD. Im JK. You could also play with other ppl. They would also be willing to help you :D

And just play a game or 2 a week :P. No big deal :D.

Hookerhunterx wrote:

BurroDiablo wrote:
Nah, you can definitely upload PvP EF matched to GR.org... unless they've changed their minds for some bizarre reason? I doubt it.

Hmm, never knew that :P. Do you still see the SU troops and all just like you would any regular upload or does it get modified ???

Downloaders will need to run EF in order to watch the replay, like we do here :P Otherwise, they'll just get a synch error.

Hookerhunterx wrote:BTW your picture doesn't appear :P (I think its called an avatar?)

I know, my host has been down for like a week, it happens every few months so they're probably doing maintenance. Hopefully it'll be back up soon...

Last edited February 2, 2012 at 4:18 AM by BurroDiablo

If you use MGs as Soviets vs Wehrmacht, then here are some nice things to help you out.
1: Place guards with your command squad. Guards and command squad can kill even vet 3 KCH over time. If you like variety, give your command squads the PPS, and your guards SVT-40s. Also, use arty barrage often.
2: Heavy mortars and snipers. Snipers are very useful to kill wehr infantry, and mortar barrages can be used to kill spams of infantry. the heavy mortar might as well be a howitzer, use it as such.
3: TANKS! Build KVs, T34s, T-90s, whatever you like, just build as many as you can muster. They overrun wehr infantry, and are effective against most tanks. If you still suffer from Wehr infantry spam;
4: Go propaganda and get katyushas, and then GoW. Katyushas will kill even tanks, and GoW will make the Wehr lose any clusters of infantry, forcing them to disperse and die off to your superior infantry and tanks.

Playing against CPU is not anything to be shy about,I have a Russian colleague who will not play anything except me as British and him as SU with CPU enemies. CoH IA has been so improved that we don't always win against Expert (but that's his fault).

Hi Bo, you have many choices when compstomping Against Wher. Form what i can tell I suggest you try one of two strats.

1. 2 sniper strat: build 3ing/T2/T2b/sharpshooter/upg to sniper. First two ings cap get 2 FPs. You should secure the highest FP as soon as your sniper.  By this time you should have 5-6 SP capped. Build ing/T1/sharp/upg to sniper. Start building conscripts. If you have the MP Strelky are ok but 2 Strelky at this point is enough. You are going to use two-3 squad platoons(aug) Ea platoon consists of two  infantry squads and a sniper. each platoon operates separately to harrass the enemy. cap by all means but uncapping works just as well. Your snipers should be screened by at least one squad. Prioritize the enemies FP and cutoff points. get out an ATG and maybe an MG nest at your outposted FP. use 1ing to build barbed wire and mines. The rest cap or support your augmented infantry platoons. your infantry force should consist of 4-5 conscripts 1-2 strelky. organized into 3platoons (two augmented by snipers). 3 ing will ultimately go Stormovie for a Close Assault Platoon.


2. Fast vehicle strat: Build  ing/T1 /1-2 ing +5 conscripts. Note that ing and cons have no MP maintenance burden. You will have the highest MP gain rate possible. THe same tactics apply as above but 3 Squad platoons may work better here. when snipers are encountered rush them. one assault move and 1-2 move attacks boyond the snipers position will drive them off or better. Push on to T3/Lt Tky. build a CS/upg and a T90. this combo will chew up wehr infantry including MGs.


3. Otto's Fast Lt Tky: 3 ing T2/T2a/TH/OP FP/T3/TH/T3a/TH/T90/T1/CS-upg/T70/2SU76 push on to H TKY with 2KV1s.  I build 2 FP-OPs 1 MP-OP. If I don't have fuel for T1 I buld 2T70s and 2 SU76s. operate tnaks in pairs. 1 ing to support a tank platoon 2ing to support a tank CO(3 Tanks).. -infantry force = 1ng/3 stormovie/ 5 conscripts/3 THs/1 Strelky(recrewing) Tank force 1 t90/1 T70/ 2-3 SU76 / 2 KV85s. Artilery: 1 Btty of 2/ 107mm mortars. ON TO BERLIN!

There's no point in getting Conscripts if you are going sniper start. You already have the capability of getting better infantry. Conscripts are good at decapping and early engagements. Other then that they kinda suck late game :P

You could just do a standard infantry build with Conscripts to Strelky then to AT gun or TH and eventually medium tanks like T-34. Improvising all the while of course :P

Cat wrote:
Hard AI: 125% MP Increase
Expert AI: 150% MP Increase

You're wecome BTW ;)

THe benefit of using conscripts and ings early game compstomping is several fold.

• Neither ings or cons contribite any MP maintenance burden. This keeps the rate of MP growth as high as may be. This is particularly useful when compstomping against an opponent receiving 1.25 to1.5 x your base resources.


• Neither ings or cons have any MP maintenance cost. Cat what is the MP burden of 5 strelky squads? We will ignore the ings for this purpose but they add another 3-4 squads ie up to 9 squads no MP maintenance. 


• Cons do not contribute to the pop cap. THis is 5 squads more than the comp can acquire. Cons cap faster and cost less to reinforce. This increases your rate of resource gain on one hand and reduces the MP drain by what? ~ 27-16 =11MP per man reinforced.

There are three other ways I'm aware of to maintain High MP gain. Build an armory, upgrade it to weapons reserves and build a CS. There is a Threshold of 6 MP maintenance "units", I forget the name. THe CS has 5 and supposedly reduces MP maintence burden by 10%. This is broken for some reason. If you build a CS when no squads besides ings and cons are on map the MP rate drops by about 4.5 MP/min. Hopefully JoJo can figure out where the problem is. his eyes are sharp enough to spot a flyspeck in the code.

QuoteHard AI: 125% MP Increase
Expert AI: 150% MP Increase

You're wecome BTW 

IMO This can't be true.
That way it would mean multiplication with 2.25 hard and 2.50 expert. Expert would get almost tripled res(actually doubled and half)

It is simple math nothing else, will explain it soon.

AFAIK In EF version 1.6.1.0. bonuses are:
- hard 1.5 mp and 1.5 muni means 50% more manpower  and muni
- expert 1.85 mp and 1.85 muni means 85% more mapower and muni

Why 1.5 multiplications means 50%?
Reason is that if you have 200 mp and mult with 1.5 is 300 manpower.
200 + 50%(200) = 200 + 200* 50 / 100 = 200 + 2 * 50 = 300 manpower.
--
300 - 200 = 100 manpower more
100/200 = 0.5 -> 0.5 * 100 = 50%
So without adding 200+50%(200) it is multiplied by 1.5 in other words 1 * 200 + 0.5 * 200 = 200 * (1 + 0.5)= 200 * 1.5 = 300 manpower
--
In the case with 125% mentioned in quotes.
200 + 125%(200) = 200 + 1.25*200 = 200 + 250 = 450 manpower
--
450 - 200 = 250 manpower more
250/200 = 1.25 -> 1.25 * 100 = 125%
--

If am wrong pls correct me.


Here is a little more about CS.
With each veterancy lvl CS gets you 12% reduction to upkeep which means total upkeep value is multiplied by 0.88.
TABLE:
lvl 1 = 0.88 -> means 12% less upkeep -> 1-0.88 = 0.12 * 100 = 12%
lvl 2 = 0.88 * 0.88 = ~0,77-> means 23% less upkeep -> same as upper line
lvl 3 = 0.88 * 0.88 * 0.88 = ~0.68 -> means 32% less upkeep

Example 1 -> this is only for CS not for other units like strelky etc
So upkeep for CS = -10,08 mp/min -> means you lose 10,08 manpower for cs per minute
with vet 1 -> CS upkeep = -10,08 * 0,88 = ~8.87 mp/min -> means you will lose 8.87 manpower for CS squad per minute
with vet 2 -> CS upkeep = -10,08 * 0,77 = ~7.76 mp/min -> means you will lose 7,76 manpower for CS squad per minute
with vet 3 -> CS upkeep = -10,08 * 0,68 = ~6.85 mp/min -> means you will lose 6,85 manpower for CS squad per minute

Example 2 -> if you have 1 x strelky and CS on the field (ignoring threshold)
Strelky upkeep = 8,64
CS upkeep = 10,08

you are losing = 18.72 mp/min
vet lvl 1 -> losing 18,72 * 0,88 = ~16.47 mp/min
vet lvl 2 -> losing 18,72 * 0,77 = ~14.50 mp/min
vet lvl 3 -> losing 18,72 * 0,68 = ~12.76 mp/min

-> armory is build and CS on vet 3 -> 10% upkeep reduction -> 0.9 mult
losing 18,72 * 0,68 * 0,9 = 18,72 * 0,612 = ~11,46 mp/min

-> weapon res upgraded and CS on vet 3
losing 18,72 * 0,612 * 0,7 = 18,72 * 0,43 = ~8 mp/min

So you are losing 8mp/min for CS and 1x strelky, more units on field more upkeep.

If am wrong experts correct me.
If i have sometimes used , and sometimes . for decimal numbers it means same but typing mistake, and lack of time to correct it :).

Hope it helps.

Otto wrote:

Cat wrote:
Hard AI: 125% MP Increase
Expert AI: 150% MP Increase

You're wecome BTW ;)

THe benefit of using conscripts and ings early game compstomping is several fold.

• Neither ings or cons contribite any MP maintenance burden. This keeps the rate of MP growth as high as may be. This is particularly useful when compstomping against an opponent receiving 1.25 to1.5 x your base resources.


• Neither ings or cons have any MP maintenance cost. Cat what is the MP burden of 5 strelky squads? We will ignore the ings for this purpose but they add another 3-4 squads ie up to 9 squads no MP maintenance. 


• Cons do not contribute to the pop cap. THis is 5 squads more than the comp can acquire. Cons cap faster and cost less to reinforce. This increases your rate of resource gain on one hand and reduces the MP drain by what? ~ 27-16 =11MP per man reinforced.

There are three other ways I'm aware of to maintain High MP gain. Build an armory, upgrade it to weapons reserves and build a CS. There is a Threshold of 6 MP maintenance "units", I forget the name. THe CS has 5 and supposedly reduces MP maintence burden by 10%. This is broken for some reason. If you build a CS when no squads besides ings and cons are on map the MP rate drops by about 4.5 MP/min. Hopefully JoJo can figure out where the problem is. his eyes are sharp enough to spot a flyspeck in the code.

You are saving MP but you are then having to waste MP reinforcing semi useless infantry. You are looking at this from a "how much MP can I save" standpoint. But you must remember even if you save enough to get like another squad its a sorta useless squad, especially late game where infantry have vet and upgrades. The reinforce cost of conscripts  isn't high (IIRC its 7 or 9?) but it gets annoying to constantly reinforce and to have to waste time doing so. And conscript vet generally sucks any who so its doesn't really pay of. Its better to just get quality infantry then to worry about saving every ounce of MP IMHO.

Sometimes in team games Allied players who make med centers to get free squads often end up with too many squads and they actually become a burden. Same with conscripts.

Otto wrote:
Otto's Fast Lt Tky: 3 ing T2/T2a/TH/OP FP/T3/TH/T3a/TH/T90/T1/CS-upg/T70/2SU76 push on to H TKY with 2KV1s.  I build 2 FP-OPs 1 MP-OP. If I don't have fuel for T1 I buld 2T70s and 2 SU76s. operate tnaks in pairs. 1 ing to support a tank platoon 2ing to support a tank CO(3 Tanks).. -infantry force = 1ng/3 stormovie/ 5 conscripts/3 THs/1 Strelky(recrewing) Tank force 1 t90/1 T70/ 2-3 SU76 / 2 KV85s. Artillery: 1 Btty of 2/ 107mm mortars. ON TO BERLIN!

I save my extra Resources for tanks and artillery not infantry. 13|7|2 ratio

If you find your medic bunker is a liability as far as pop cap goes blow it up with demos or friendly fire. I consider excess infantry malingerers and decimation is good for discipline. 5 conscripts squads may be low quality infantry but they don't contribute to pop or MP maintenance burden. Using the UC CT that is 35 mosin nagants firing M-L range from cover.

Otto wrote:

Cat wrote:
Hard AI: 125% MP Increase
Expert AI: 150% MP Increase

You're wecome BTW ;)

THe benefit of using conscripts and ings early game compstomping is several fold.

• Neither ings or cons contribite any MP maintenance burden. This keeps the rate of MP growth as high as may be. This is particularly useful when compstomping against an opponent receiving 1.25 to1.5 x your base resources.


• Neither ings or cons have any MP maintenance cost. Cat what is the MP burden of 5 strelky squads? We will ignore the ings for this purpose but they add another 3-4 squads ie up to 9 squads no MP maintenance. 


• Cons do not contribute to the pop cap. THis is 5 squads more than the comp can acquire. Cons cap faster and cost less to reinforce. This increases your rate of resource gain on one hand and reduces the MP drain by what? ~ 27-16 =11MP per man reinforced.

There are three other ways I'm aware of to maintain High MP gain. Build an armory, upgrade it to weapons reserves and build a CS. There is a Threshold of 6 MP maintenance "units", I forget the name. THe CS has 5 and supposedly reduces MP maintence burden by 10%. This is broken for some reason. If you build a CS when no squads besides ings and cons are on map the MP rate drops by about 4.5 MP/min. Hopefully JoJo can figure out where the problem is. his eyes are sharp enough to spot a flyspeck in the code.

Sorry, but ?¿?... Conscripts have absolutely 0 combat power, especially against

1) vehicles of all sorts
2) grenadiers
3) weapon teams

Conscripts are only used earlygame because you have nothing else.
If you already teched to snipers it's just logical to rely on Strelky as basic infantry. Sure they cost more to maintain, however this is worth it because

1) strelky get powerful veterancy
2) they get powerful weapon upgrades with Red banner upgrade
3) they deal much more damage in general than conscripts
4) only cost 50mp more per squad

The 11 mp difference to conscripts is nothing compared to how much a vetted PPsh Strelky can kill. And you have to think this way: you pay 220mp for conscripts, who dont kill, who dont scale and who dont get upgrades.
Compared to conscripts, a Strelky squad costs you only 50mp (270mp-220mp). And until you have used up the 220 mp you saved from not getting conscripts will give you the manpower fully reinforce each of your squads 2 times, which is quite a lot.
And you also inflict much higher casualties to your enemy.

Last edited May 18, 2012 at 6:34 PM by dArCReAvEr

Just to be fair Conscripts can get full rifles upgrade but it's doctrine specific.

Cat wrote:
Just to be fair Conscripts can get full rifles upgrade but it's doctrine specific.

true, however the conscript rifles are less powerful than the strelky rifles, just like it is with Grenadier Kar98 and Volksgrenadier Kar98.
Also, within the same doctrine unlock Strelky can throw grenades, so even then Strelky are still superior to Conscripts.

There is no question that Strelky are more powerfull and usefull than conscripts. If both T1 and T2 are available (as well as that extra 50MP), I would use them or consider waiting even longer for guards, since I am aiming for an early T3. I find conscripts at range and in cover more than sufficent to deal with pios and VG with short range SMGs. I confess If I want early anti-infantry
power my first choice is a T90 working with CS/upgraded.

DarkReaver there are subtleties in SP that are not necessarily apparent to a good MP, such as yourself. In SP you are working against the clock, not another player. Destruction of enemy squads is less an advantage then forcing a retreat. If I KIA an enemy squad the comp can produce an higher quality Squad in @ 12 seconds and advance to combat in short order. The retreated squad is presumably lower quality, has to retreat to base, maybe reinforce and then advance to combat. This delay allows the player to cap at least one more point. THe lower quality comp squad also ties up PoP that the comp could use to build other units of higher quality. THe comp has faster response time and higher resource aguisition (versus time). PoP Cap is independent of time.

Conscripts take up no pop cap :P. This is assuming you are referring to a SU AI.

Even with AI it's better to kill the squad. The AI might have increased MP but it still takes work for it to get stuff out. And the more kills you get the more vet (depending) and XP you get.

Hey Cat.
You probably should ask somebody else about the zero pop for conscripts. There is some fancy accounting procedures to make it work. It works for both AI and player though.

A dead VG is worth 3 exp right? If I kill 3 and force a retreat. Later they come back And I kill 3 more and make them retreat. I think I have gained 18 exp. IF I KIA the whole squad I get 15 exp and have to face grenadiers next time. Cons are better at killing VGs then Grens.

Killing VGs is worth 3CP and 1XP I'm pretty sure.

Otto wrote:

A dead VG is worth 3 exp right? If I kill 3 and force a retreat. Later they come back And I kill 3 more and make them retreat. I think I have gained 18 exp. IF I KIA the whole squad I get 15 exp and have to face grenadiers next time. Cons are better at killing VGs then Grens.

Or the more likely situation:
You kill 3 VG and they run. They come back reinforced and with another conscript squad or worse, a MG. You have 2 conscript squads (lets say you got another one to back you up since in this situation you seem to favor conscripts). Suddenly you are probably going to lose. In fact from the last engagement you lost 3 or even 4 conscripts and deciding that you probably were okay atm you wouldn't need to retreat for reinforce. Now you must retreat :P.

You kill 3 VG and they run. They come back reinforced but this time with a VG squad and a Gren squad. You are in green cover you you are likr "okay I got this". The battle wears on and your conscripts are weak and you'll probably have to fall back soon. Suddenly you notice the volks are getting closer and closer. You think to yourself "Oh well, he is taking more damage anyhow". Suddenly the volks' MP40 upgrade is done and they charge you, decimating your units. You retreat.

Either way the comp isn't just going to wait for you to kill it's units and then get a new one (unless it's honestly out of popcap, but thats gameplay, especially late game)

Come on Cat,

While the AI spends (300 +280 +260)/1.25 (hard) = 672 MP + reinforce and marches up.
The conscript caps the hi FL point and I build T90 + T70 +ing = 680 MP.
The tank platoon eats the wehr infantry company while the ing outposts the hi FL Pt, repairs the tanks and maybe builds an MG nest in the bargain, A 107mm mortar would be cheaper.
Oh yes the conscript reinforces at the outpost too.

QuoteOtto's Fast Lt Tky: 3 ing T2/T2a/TH/OP FP/T3/TH/T3a/TH/T90/T1/CS-upg/T70/2SU76 push on to H TKY with 2KV1s.  I build 2 FP-OPs 1 MP-OP. If I don't have fuel for T1 I buld 2T70s and 2 SU76s. operate tnaks in pairs. 1 ing to support a tank platoon 2ing to support a tank CO(3 Tanks).. -infantry force = 1ng/3 stormovie/ 5 conscripts/3 THs/1 Strelky(recrewing) Tank force 1 t90/1 T70/ 2-3 SU76 / 2 KV85s. Artilery: 1 Btty of 2/ 107mm mortars. ON TO BERLIN!

Last edited May 22, 2012 at 5:17 AM by Otto Halfhand

Tank Depot isnt going to come out as fast as you think. You need 85 fuel (thats alot early on). And the 2 conscripts with outpost will cost more (I had typed the numbers but my page closed and I'd rather not do it again  :'()

It takes about 7m24s to get a T70 and T90 out. THe AI-normal can do it faster though. 125FP for T1/T3/T3a and 70 FP for tanks. You can't produce tanks without T1 BTW.

Last edited May 23, 2012 at 2:20 AM by Otto Halfhand

Otto wrote:
It takes about 7m24s to get a T70 and T90 out. THe AI-normal can do it faster though.

Seems a little too fast TBH