A Proposal to make the A.I. more human...

Just wondering if this is possible because I've seen this kind of thing in other RTS games like starcraft II. How about there are a number of preset builds incorporated into the memory of each A.I. (for example, maybe panzer elite will have the following builds. Fast scout car, mass grens, panzer IV rush) but to accommodate the resource system there are some variables involved like so. If (put resource here)>x amount, then y% chance that z will be performed. In a following case, if fuel income a minute (after lets say a check period of 2 minutes) is greater than 25, then there is a 65% chance that a panzer IV rush will be attempted. Or maybe if fuel income is less than 14, a munitions check will be performed and another strategy follows suit. Is this possible?

Last edited January 25, 2012 at 9:09 PM by bopokippo

wheres robotnik when you need him? anyways, i wouldn't know, but i think most people will agree with me when i say multiplayer games are more fun. stick to that.

As I understand it sounds like a really great idea, because it is not always possible to find a suitable mulitplayer match in ef. and such suggestions will make the computer more fun to play against. but totally agree with stealthattack1 that multiplayer games are more fun.
there are other things I would rather see finished than this ostheer and next patch for example. ;D otherwise a cool idea. ;)

mads wrote:
As I understand it sounds like a really great idea, because it is not always possible to find a suitable mulitplayer match in ef. and such suggestions will make the computer more fun to play against. but totally agree with stealthattack1 that multiplayer games are more fun.
there are other things I would rather see finished than this ostheer and next patch for example. ;D otherwise a cool idea. ;)

In the next patch, multiplayer matches will be easier to find, I guarantee you.

Yeah I agree multi player in any game is more fun, but I have parental limitations (asians) and they believe I will get addicted if I play online at all so I'm trying to maximize my cpu compstomp fun! :)

well, like i said, talk to robotnik. hes kinda the EF ai programmer.

stealthattack1 wrote:
but i think most people will agree with me when i say multiplayer games are more fun. stick to that.

mads wrote:
As I understand it sounds like a really great idea, because it is not always possible to find a suitable mulitplayer match in ef.

That. And some ppl enjoy play against comp. Others practice against comp b4 playing vs players. We should also cater to our Comp playing community too :P

But I dont think giving comp specific build orders for each map is the best idea. Maybe give them a variety of build orders and let them pick and counter on their own.

And can someone please fix the AI and its spam. Limit them to 4 or 5 maybe? I know the chief argument is that other players cant spam themselves but honestly, unless you are playing a compstomp bridge map or you are dominating the enemy, you wont have 6 StuHs or 7 Stormtroopers  ::). In any real competitive match, you wont be able to spam too well.

Last edited January 24, 2012 at 12:40 AM by Fishhunterx

oh yeah just another quick thing, I find that wehr tends to make a lot of AT guns for some reason at times as well as excessive amounts ot StuGs in team games... I dunno it's just that in 1v1s and team games (but more prevalent since you're only facing one guy in 1v1) that the comps do the same opening for the most part.

but in response to the above reply  where it is stated, "Maybe give them a variety of build orders and let them pick and counter on their own". Eh maybe I misphrashed my suggestion but picking build orders an countering on their own fall under the checking system as stated in the first post seeing as, you're not going to try to do a tank build when your fuel income is 5... Its not neccesarily map specific, but just for what territory sectors they have but yes, that is somewhat map specific but in reality, contrary to the original post, there would be maybe 20 builds to choose from. And in reponse to the counter system as asked, maybe there could be a 50% chance of creating a coutner when a unit is first seen in the fog of war to not make it too predictable, and when two of a unit is seen, there is a 75% chance, and when three are seen, 85, and so forth...

It is true that wehr spams a LOT of Paks and doesn't train too many Volks.

They need more Grens. At least they are pretty useful :P

They spam HMGs StuGs and PaKs.

Also, they always seem to make an mp40 volks squad with 1-2 snipers with support and 2 mg42s with a pak a few minutes later followed by a puma and then STuGs.

Also some ideas for wehr strats

Mass Volks with MP40s- Transition to pak support and mortars with the same volk mp40 support

Mass grens with schreks and LMGs

Fast Puma with volks

fast grens (no wehrmacht quarters). Save munitions for grenades

Nebelwerfer/puma push

fast sniper with pioneers capping

fast HMG

And add counter-response probabilities to each one. Anti vehicle could be schreked grens, Paks, or upgunned pumas.

The fast Gren idea wouldn't work cause AI doesn't cordinate its units like people do. Its would be complete domination by human  :-\. Regular people would piospam and use them together, not just alone.  And they would buy Support vet and get flamers. You suggest saving muni for nades. They wont work as well as you think they will. AI would use them and let them die 1 by 1. And they would walk straight into MG fire without a care in the world.

Usually Volks spam will lead to fast T3 or T4, not mortars and Grens with paks. You would be too behind on teching IMO

Fast snipers are susceptable to WSC strat. without bikes its much harder  :-\

Nebel/Puma rush would entail a heavy T1 stategy. WHich has already been touched on

I dont know what you mean by fast HMG. It can litterally be your first T1 unit

I honestly think the AI spam needs to be changed. Thats all for now in terms of quick fixes. And I've already given my justification :P

Last edited January 25, 2012 at 10:14 PM by Fishhunterx

eh yeah that one above for me was crud. But I'm just trying to give some variation. Getting sick of seeing the same stuff over n over again...

Fishhunterx wrote:
The fast Gren idea wouldn't work cause AI doesn't cordinate its units like people do. Its would be complete domination by human  :-\. Regular people would piospam and use them together, not just alone.  And they would buy Support vet and get flamers. You suggest saving muni for nades. They wont work as well as you think they will. AI would use them and let them die 1 by 1. And they would walk straight into MG fire without a care in the world.

Usually Volks spam will lead to fast T3 or T4, not mortars and Grens with paks. You would be too behind on teching IMO

Fast snipers are susceptable to WSC strat. without bikes its much harder  :-\

Nebel/Puma rush would entail a heavy T1 stategy. WHich has already been touched on

I dont know what you mean by fast HMG. It can litterally be your first T1 unit

I honestly think the AI spam needs to be changed. Thats all for now in terms of quick fixes. And I've already given my justification :P

and the point of this all is to at least let you try different things because when the AI does the exact same thing every  game it gets dull. Fast HMG as in that is his first unit. Susceptable to WSC for sniper? Good cause your doing SOMETHING DIFFERENT. You know, I wonder if sometime in the future they will develop awesome game A.I.s that's exactly like a person....

I don't think CoH engine is that good.

actually the ai does have pre-programmed strategies for the beggining phase of the game, what i call static ai. the thing is we want the ai to get into dynamic AI as soon as possible, dynamic AI is when the AI starts thinking on its own.

yes you could make it so that the AI follows a build strategy throughout the whole game, but that would be predictable and we would run into some problems. an example being lets say the ai is going for a fast stug. in the build order it says:

get grenadier-> get grenadier-> get stug

now then the opponent takes the AI's only fuel point and the computer has very little fuel income. so instead of building units that wont require fuel, the AI will instead follow the build order and continue to do nothing until it reaches the required fuel, which is very stupid.

there is also of course the fact that the ai wont know how to specifically use the units, for example the ai wont know how to properly micro units in a piospam strategy, or a medbunker strategy.


i am trying to implement a better ai, but the lack of any debugging option and little documentation on how the ai works or how to make it work, makes it kinda hard to make a more complex ai

robotnik wrote:
actually the ai does have pre-programmed strategies for the beggining phase of the game, what i call static ai. the thing is we want the ai to get into dynamic AI as soon as possible, dynamic AI is when the AI starts thinking on its own.

yes you could make it so that the AI follows a build strategy throughout the whole game, but that would be predictable and we would run into some problems. an example being lets say the ai is going for a fast stug. in the build order it says:

get grenadier-> get grenadier-> get stug

now then the opponent takes the AI's only fuel point and the computer has very little fuel income. so instead of building units that wont require fuel, the AI will instead follow the build order and continue to do nothing until it reaches the required fuel, which is very stupid.

there is also of course the fact that the ai wont know how to specifically use the units, for example the ai wont know how to properly micro units in a piospam strategy, or a medbunker strategy.


i am trying to implement a better ai, but the lack of any debugging option and little documentation on how the ai works or how to make it work, makes it kinda hard to make a more complex ai

For the taking fuel and pointlessly trying to continue getting the fast StuG, that would be fixed by a check system which I am not sure is possible but as stated originally in my post. After X-minutes or every Y-minutes, it checks if (insert resource type) is greater than Z and if so, proceeds with the build.

AI could focus more on infantry, they always automatically get into cover in a firefight automatically which should offset lack of AI micro and also it would be nice if they retreat if they lose more than half their squad. Now a conscript squad retreats if they lose 3 men out of 8. Starting infantry (like conscripts) should  cover the retreat of the better (strelky/ guards) infantry.

A.I. isnt always the smartest with Infantry :P. THey often timres run into MGs or refuse to cut wire.

BTW can the AI be changed to cut wire ???. It seems so dumb that they wont do so :P

Hi all,
Am writing this cuz recently i was playing with AI and AI stuff. I will explain what i have found.
Also I don't mean to offend anyone with this post. Just wanted to tell my opinions, thought etc.

QuoteI wonder if sometime in the future they will develop awesome game A.I.s that's exactly like a person....

Am not sure that anyone wants that kind of AI.
You probably wonder why?

Here is little explanation.
We all know AI is not human, so AI can't learn. Lets say for example simple game like Connect4 and that AI is able to learn.
First few games you win AI yeah and you are so happy, but to forget that AI can learn so AI learned something from your experience and AI knows 90% of your tricks makes AI harder to beat. After more games AI has more experience and more knowledge about game and playing. After more and more games that makes AI unbeatable cuz AI learned that he will lose at certain points so he want make same mistakes again. Makes AI master of game :) who always wins. You will lose every time and i think you will sooner or later give up :). I think it is called something like "neuron net".

QuoteBTW can the AI be changed to cut wire . It seems so dumb that they wont do so

Maybe am not sure as far as i know AI does not use some stuff wires, tank traps and sandbags.

QuoteFor the taking fuel and pointlessly trying to continue getting the fast StuG, that would be fixed by a check system which I am not sure is possible but as stated originally in my post. After X-minutes or every Y-minutes, it checks if (insert resource type) is greater than Z and if so, proceeds with the build.

Actually AI works similar to that will explain some other time.

Quoteactually the ai does have pre-programmed strategies for the beggining phase of the game, what i call static ai. the thing is we want the ai to get into dynamic AI as soon as possible, dynamic AI is when the AI starts thinking on its own.

Yes AI has some Build orders but those build orders are often interrupted by some stuff. They also don't have to be "static". Lets say BO goes 2x pio - T1 - sniper - sniper. AI can decide if he rly needs 2nd sniper lets say first died by jeep then ok i don't want to build another one that might get killed by jeep i will build volks or something else.

Also AI has some priorities for build orders. For example on low fuel map lets start with hmg spam on big maps lets use puma spam etc etc. :)
Another example lets suppose BO like 3x pio -> 2-3 x OP -> T2 -> grens. If american opponent plays similar this will not get interrupted but if american opponent pushes and plays aggressive bo will get interrupted :).

Quoteyes you could make it so that the AI follows a build strategy throughout the whole game

Am not sure that this can work like that the longer BO is it has more chance to get interrupted or not to be chosen by AI.
For example we want make AI that will fight only with pios AI will build some pios but after some time or some stuff AI will reject that and he will build something else.

Quotepoint of this all is to at least let you try different things because when the AI does the exact same thing every  game it gets dull.

Am not sure that AI does same stuff in all games there are some BOs that are mostly chosen in small maps, some are mostly chosen in vp games. If you have 1BO for small map AI will do same stuff every game :).

QuoteAlso some ideas for wehr strats

Mass Volks with MP40s- Transition to pak support and mortars with the same volk mp40 support

Mass grens with schreks and LMGs

Fast Puma with volks

fast grens (no wehrmacht quarters). Save munitions for grenades

Nebelwerfer/puma push

fast sniper with pioneers capping

fast HMG

And add counter-response probabilities to each one. Anti vehicle could be schreked grens, Paks, or upgunned pumas.

Can you write it better, like fast HMG is build 2x Pio - t1- HMG - etc
Thanks.

QuoteI honestly think the AI spam needs to be changed. Thats all for now in terms of quick fixes. And I've already given my justification

What do you think what has to be changed?

Otto made topic for Compstompers be sure to check it, write about your experience vs AI etc. http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7872.msg115171#new

No offence to anyone by this post :).
Cheers.

Last edited April 6, 2012 at 12:06 PM by jojorabbit

JoJo's observations are pretty much on the nut as are Robotnik's posts; which he quotes from. It is not too hard to develop different AI personalities. (Well the programming logic is easy enough). Implementing different AI's into the game is a little problematic. Some RTS games have  made it easy to load different AI personalities into the game engine, (the GUI in Civilization is very nice). IE each slot could conceivably have a different AI BO. To my knowledge Relic doesn't have a GUI to facilitate this. Every time you would desire a different AI in the game it would be necessary to manually load it before you open the EF application, (Warcraft). This would involve changing switching filenames. Not to hard to do, (IIRC Total War's Batch file for this was developed by its modders).  ;D From what I've gleaned from various postings on EF and Relic threads there is a glitch involved. Implementing these changes seems to frequently disrupt one or more play modes including MP.  :P

There is no reason to suppose these difficulties cannot be overcome. Time conquers all. But Murphy is a perpetual "Lurker at the Threshold". I am  certain the EF developers' time is fully absorbed with getting Ostheer ready. If all of the above is not gobble de gook to you and you have the requisite skill sets; you could help. Jojorabbit is.

Hi all,

After few days/nights, observations, tons of tests.
I present you something what i like to call USSR v.1.0 aka "Under Soviet Sniper Roast" :P.

It is (maybe first) "dynamic" AI build order, here is how it looks:


Test results will be posted soon. Build order will get improved so it is not final.
NOTE: After Strelky AI goes "full dynamic".

I would like to hear more feedback from EF players, experts, anyone.
What do you think about this kind of build orders?
What do you think will "dynamic build orders" improve AI to be more smarter? At least on the start.

Suggestions, comments, critics all welcome.

Thanks.

Hey JoJo! Looks promising.  I think you need to build a couple of Conscripts before you go 2nd Sniper or CS. Your map control will suffer if you don't.  See the AI Clearing house thread in off topic. I'll run a test on Sov AI map conrtrol later today.  Are you using Normal or Hard AI. Probably need to run it on both.

This graph looks cool :). Now lets see if it works ;)

Cat wrote:
This graph looks cool :). Now lets see if it works ;)

Thanks. It works don't worry will show more when i will have more tests and feedback.
But the graph now looks like on image below :P making AI more "human like" on game start.



Comments, suggestions :)?

Honestly Im not sure if this will be AS effective vs PE. They have access to fast vehicles and Im not talking bikes. Im talking HTs and ACs which can ruthlessly hunt down your snipers. I think you should counter it with mines or Sturmovie

Cat wrote:
Honestly Im not sure if this will be AS effective vs PE. They have access to fast vehicles and Im not talking bikes. Im talking HTs and ACs which can ruthlessly hunt down your snipers. I think you should counter it with mines or Sturmovie

As I told am not expert player, I don't have any feedback from experts, I need more tests. (No offense)
There is only and only one snipe vs PE if PE is going T2 for Infantry HTs so Soviet AI makes Tank Hunters :).
Only if PE is trying to blob like 3-4 PGs then there are 2 snipes :).

What would you do if you were Soviet facing PE and lets say HT spam -> PE plays 2xPG - T2 - 2xIHT?
What if you don't have enough fuel for medium support?
What do you think is best to do after "Is vs PE"?
Thanks for helping.

Last edited April 8, 2012 at 6:48 PM by jojorabbit

I think THs. Draw the enemy close by pick off their infantry with snipers. They will be forced to either fall back or rush in with vehicles. Then they will hit your mines and your THs can open fire.

Although I am no pro so take my advice with a grain of salt ;)

Cat wrote:
Then they will hit your mines and your THs can open fire.

AI makes mines but not as much as human player would make them. I would like exclude mines for now from build orders. Mines will be accomplished later :).

JoJo:
1. your revised flow diagram has a problem. The AI will always blob PGs early in the game because they are a T0 build. AI rarely builds kets.
2. Consider revising your logic to using the conditional:  if x=y,(T2b,T2a).
3. What kind of flag does the AI use to initiate Wether the opponent is Wher or PE.
4. You are ignoring the early game FP dynamic built into Sov v1.6. You start with 35FP you can build T1 or T2 not both. It will take ~2-3 minutes to accumulate enough FP to build the other T(structure). At this time T2 first is not really an option.

Otto wrote:
JoJo:
1. your revised flow diagram has a problem. The AI will always blob PGs early in the game because they are a T0 build. AI rarely builds kets.
2. Consider revising your logic to using the conditional:  if x=y,(T2b,T2a).
3. What kind of flag does the AI use to initiate Wether the opponent is Wher or PE.
4. You are ignoring the early game FP dynamic built into Sov v1.6. You start with 35FP you can build T1 or T2 not both. It will take ~2-3 minutes to accumulate enough FP to build the other T(structure). At this time T2 first is not really an option.

1. Function goes like x = y(3PG, T2 ) if i correctly understood you :). So AI checks if you have t2 building then you are probably going with HTs so AI will make Tank Hunters.

2. Will try :).

3. Hm not sure what do you mean by "what kind of flag"? Flag can be 1 or 0, lets say 0-wehr, 1-PE. AI "looks" if there are PE players on other side.
AI as soviet can play vs 2PE (there are PE players on other side), 2 Wehr(no PE players on other side), 1PE 1Wehr.

4. Am not an expert player :) can't always decide what is better, basic BO is from some other topic and goes to Tank Hunters or Strelky :).

5. What would you do if you were Soviet facing PE and lets say HT spam -> PE plays 2xPG - T2 - 2xIHT?
6. What if you don't have enough fuel for medium support?
7. What do you think is best to do after "Is vs PE"?
8. What would you do after 1st sniper?

Thanks for help.