Balancing and Gameplay questionnaire

Hey guys!  :)

After a successful Kalach experiment, I decided to ask community what exactly they want in maps.

As some of you noticed, EF lacks good, interesting and competitive 1v1 maps. Exisitng ones are claimed to be "boring". Most of replays are recorded on Langres or Angoville. It looks like those two maps ( and extra Sylver's maps: Kotelnikovo and Karachev) are most used 1v1 maps in EF. My question is:

what makes them special? what makes people to choose those maps?

I'd be grateful if the answer wouldn't be like "oh, it's balanced, sector layout is cool and they are cool anyways" - answers like this aren't really helpful  :-\ Try to describe details, add picture maybe, and give some tips to mappers, so we can put those best map parts together. Maybe show us your favourite part of any map, a part which makes the gameplay fun.

For me:
- Easy opportunity cut off the enemy from the resources.
- Buildings in strategic positions, one or two.
- Roads that players should avoid them (red cover).
- Very open map, i mean easy to flank MG.
- Not too small and not too big map.
- Interesting arrangement of the points like ammo or fuel.
- Open space with no or green/yellow cover

Maybe later i will write more. :)

• Balanced map layout (few choice points, some open space seperated by impassable areas like wood or hedges; The most balanced map is one where you can draw a middle line and both sides are a mirror like on red balls but that looks ugly. Semois did it very good actally. There is no mirroring but its somehow balanced)


• balanced sector layout (very important; meaning fuel/mun 2/3; if its 1/2 its allied biased; look carefully if a high fuel point is really necessary. It can be a gg for axis id a map has only 1 high fuel and no medium fuel points in the corners.)


• Every starting position should have the same way to the mirroring sector point.


• I like if your basic fuel and mun near your base are directly at the sectors base but 2 sector points are around them. This way you can be cut off like on Duclair. A Medium fuel point next to a medium mun point is boring


• Whats most importan: Every map needs something special. Look at alsace moselle, kotelnikovo or karachev. These maps are well balanced but somehow boring. They look very similar.
  If you would add something special on it, like the big church ruin on Kholm (i love it :D) or a giant building where the VP or a sector point is within the ruins (sevastopol) that would be amazing. Fighting in a destroyed factory hall (no roof because otherwise you cant see ;) ) that would be something special.
  Other ideas:
  Soccer field, a complete industry facility (no random buidlings but when you look at it you can clearly see what it should represent), shipyard, U boat bunker, your basic HQ is the Farmhouse and around it you have complete farmbuildings (no random farmbuidlings, you have to recognize what it should represent), past battlefields (no boring random tankwrecks, but placed how they would have encountered and being destoyed), a town with some more shops and the shop interior is scattered onto the street (like clothes), a tank that fell into the water and you can only see half of it, a dry river bet with a bridge over it and the river bed is filled with stranded rocks and some other goodies, a bridge over a bridge, a tunnel, a car racing field, creative ruins (most ruins are filled with things that are in worldbuilder but dont belong into it like a bed in a factory hall), a zoo (of course without animals), ....

Most of all it must be balanced map layout and sector layout wise and must have something special in it only few maps have already :)

Last edited September 28, 2011 at 5:23 PM by Killar

Killar wrote:

• Balanced map layout (few choice points, some open space seperated by impassable areas like wood or hedges; The most balanced map is one where you can draw a middle line and both sides are a mirror like on red balls but that looks ugly. Semois did it very good actally. There is no mirroring but its somehow balanced)


• balanced sector layout (very important; meaning fuel/mun 2/3; if its 1/2 its allied biased; look carefully if a high fuel point is really necessary. It can be a gg for axis id a map has only 1 high fuel and no medium fuel points in the corners.)


• Every starting position should have the same way to the mirroring sector point.


• I like if your basic fuel and mun near your base are directly at the sectors base but 2 sector points are around them. This way you can be cut off like on Duclair. A Medium fuel point next to a medium mun point is boring


• Whats most importan: Every map needs something special. Look at alsace moselle, kotelnikovo or karachev. These maps are well balanced but somehow boring. They look very similar.
  If you would add something special on it, like the big church ruin on Kholm (i love it :D) or a giant building where the VP or a sector point is within the ruins (sevastopol) that would be amazing. Fighting in a destroyed factory hall (no roof because otherwise you cant see ;) ) that would be something special.
  Other ideas:
  Soccer field, a complete industry facility (no random buidlings but when you look at it you can clearly see what it should represent), shipyard, U boat bunker, your basic HQ is the Farmhouse and around it you have complete farmbuildings (no random farmbuidlings, you have to recognize what it should represent), past battlefields (no boring random tankwrecks, but placed how they would have encountered and being destoyed), a town with some more shops and the shop interior is scattered onto the street (like clothes), a tank that fell into the water and you can only see half of it, a dry river bet with a bridge over it and the river bed is filled with stranded rocks and some other goodies, a bridge over a bridge, a tunnel, a car racing field, creative ruins (most ruins are filled with things that are in worldbuilder but dont belong into it like a bed in a factory hall), a zoo (of course without animals), ....

Most of all it must be balanced map layout and sector layout wise and must have something special in it only few maps have already :)

Just like from the bottom of my heart  ;D

I like maps with not too many buildings and areas of open fields for tank combat and makes you have to build cover :P.I also like nice building where its almost a must to have an MG in :D

That picture inspired me somehow. It shows a battle field trench system in a former forest. The wood is cut in half and destryoed by constant arty rain and leaves a destryoed wasteland. Many green cover positions are possible in such a scenario. A frozen lake in the middle maybe some destroyed and burned military equipment and voila :)



EDIT: A map with a Reichsautobahn would be cool too. Set in Germany at the end of the war it could be one of the final battles. Highway across the map with and divides both enemy sides. Onto the highway are the highest ressource points. Cars drive onto the highway very fast of course but will be threatened by mines ....

Last edited September 29, 2011 at 9:27 AM by Killar

An Autobahn map sounds awesome, you should have abandoned cars strewn across the road and some barricades built on it, in defensive expectations of course

QuoteAn Autobahn map sounds awesome, you should have abandoned cars strewn across the road and some barricades built on it, in defensive expectations of course

There weren't that much cars in germany it was more used and build for the Wehrmacht to deploy faster.

walki1 wrote:

QuoteAn Autobahn map sounds awesome, you should have abandoned cars strewn across the road and some barricades built on it, in defensive expectations of course

There weren't that much cars in germany it was more used and build for the Wehrmacht to deploy faster.

How about France :P?

why not try a 3v3 that has unusual starting positions, such as maybe two in middle and rest on edges, or four in the middle 1 on side. Something different that the usual starting positions to create a unique gameplay experience based on the strategy involved.

Something like that is already made like on Point du Hock. One side starts nearer to the middle than the other side. But directly in the middle is not such good idea

walki1 wrote:

QuoteAn Autobahn map sounds awesome, you should have abandoned cars strewn across the road and some barricades built on it, in defensive expectations of course

There weren't that much cars in germany it was more used and build for the Wehrmacht to deploy faster.

Still, gives it a bit of coolness IMO.

Killar wrote:
Something like that is already made like on Point du Hock. One side starts nearer to the middle than the other side. But directly in the middle is not such good idea

thats not what I meant. I mean directly in center with enough space inbetween mortars cant hit bases. The twist would be that they would be closer to opponets side the there own. It would make it so there is really no front line and the fighting is almost everywhere.

Nice ideas here, though I'd focus on 1v1 maps. We already have quite gamey 3v3s. The main poit is to show mappers what elements you would like to see in 1v1 map.

i think autobahn is cool too. maybe vehicles could get a substantial speed bounus for using it. watch out for mines though ;D

I smell an upcoming operation..  ;D

EDIT:

In a campaign mission we can add the Maus tank, either as defending the factoy where it was build or mission aim is to secure this tank before it gets blown up by the germans (secondary mission target). If you succeed you can use it in the next mission as call in.

Vehicle is already avaiable online as model, animated and textured.

Implementing the Maus tank in a single mission would be cool and unique.

(For the history fans: Maus tank is more likely at the eastern front than IS3. At least we have a battle report about it.The tank was blown up to avoid falling into enemy hands. This was made with most of the KT´s.
There is no valid information of any IS3 taking part in a battle.
But thats NOT for discussion here.)

Yippie ;D! Maus terror at it finest >:D

Quotei think autobahn is cool too. maybe vehicles could get a substantial speed bounus for using it. watch out for mines though ;D

Vehicles already travel faster on roads and are choosing roads to get to their location fast.

I am actually working on an autobahn map, have been for some time.

Just to clarify when you guys say autobann you mean cars right ???

Autobahns are the big German highways that have no speed limit these days. They were built initially to make deployment of the military very fast (since historically that was one of the main ideas behind roads).

These autobahns exist today? Do they have alot? Sounds like in the US where in certain parts of the country there is litterally no speed limit ;D

QuoteAutobahns are the big German highways that have no speed limit these days.

That's not that right actually only 10% have no speedlimit.

Fishhunterx wrote:
These autobahns exist today? Do they have alot? Sounds like in the US where in certain parts of the country there is litterally no speed limit ;D

haha, yes they still exist today, mostly in Germany though. what godlikedennis says about them being big is probably just freeway size for us Americans. then again, idk where you live, its just where i live the freeways are 6 lanes.
and still there are traffic jams.
long live socal :P

Last edited October 3, 2011 at 3:25 PM by stealthattack1

Killar wrote:
EDIT:

In a campaign mission we can add the Maus tank, either as defending the factoy where it was build or mission aim is to secure this tank before it gets blown up by the germans (secondary mission target). If you succeed you can use it in the next mission as call in.

Vehicle is already avaiable online as model, animated and textured.

Implementing the Maus tank in a single mission would be cool and unique.

(For the history fans: Maus tank is more likely at the eastern front than IS3. At least we have a battle report about it.The tank was blown up to avoid falling into enemy hands. This was made with most of the KT´s.
There is no valid information of any IS3 taking part in a battle.
But thats NOT for discussion here.)

i realy like that idea^^

This thread should get a sticky so that people can just make suggestions and the more talented mappers can be inspired.

New ideas:

• Soccer stadium: outskirts of a big town with a damaged former soccer stadium. Even one HQ could be in that.


• Factory hall: Map layout is a big factory hall. One player HQ starts in front of the hall and the other one inside. On most maps Hedges, walls, houses, cliffs block your way.
  In this scenario debris of the factory blocks your way/gives green cover. Could be nice setting because of tools, machines, other parts that the factory used to produce a product layes around.
  But in comparison to Sevastopol the area has to be cleaned so no pathfinding issues and the roof has to be removed. (in Sevastopol its jus too crowded)


• Dambusters: A map in the mountains where a dam was just been destroyed. The big water wafe has destroyed a nice little town that was nearby. All houses are destroyed and half buried under rocks and sand. A Bridge over the former small river has been destryoed too and is now under water. Fields are flooded too.
  I would set the water depth knee deep. Otherwise it would be just too similar to flooded plains which sucks


• Moskau map: I want the Kreml  ;D


• Berlin Tempelhof: I think everybody knows this historic airport.
  Is it possible to implement other planes instead of the crappy henschel? In fact Me262 were there
  


• Forest map: A map in a forest with some impassable areas but mostly scattered and burned wood (destroyed by arty barrage). Important for me are the different heights. Would be nice to have some detail on it rather than just texture.


• Overthrown houses: Is there a texture for houses? A tall house could be not just collapsed but thown over with debris at the side.
  


• Wholes in the street: if you make a street in a town, it could be damaged so the sewery is visible. Gives the scenery more depth
  

... hmmm... Dambusters sound cool... but having water everywhere would severly hamper the gameplay because of negative cover everywhere and reduced movement.

cephalos wrote:
... hmmm... Dambusters sound cool... but having water everywhere would severly hamper the gameplay because of negative cover everywhere and reduced movement.

Thats why i wrote "not like flooded plains" ;)

Only in a particular area that will not disturb the gameplay


2 suggestions:






on the top there is the broken dam. The former river blue) is now dry. At the sides of the river there is destruction (red area). pink rectangles are damaged neutral buildings (village). A road over a bridge in the middle. The HQ (red and blue rectangles) are opposite to each other. At the dam there is a bigger house (brown rectangle) where the machines are in (to produce electricity).

Last edited October 14, 2011 at 2:39 PM by Killar

That's awesome idea, mate! However... any dams on Eastern Front, anyone?

cephalos wrote:
That's awesome idea, mate! However... any dams on Eastern Front, anyone?

Well, you could use some of the walls\support\ objects ;)

MaxiKing6 wrote:

cephalos wrote:
That's awesome idea, mate! However... any dams on Eastern Front, anyone?

Well, you could use some of the walls\support\ objects ;)

yeah, I know, I mean any existing dams in Soviet Russia or German Dams? Battle has to be 'historical'.

Looks like the C&C mission from generals.

looks like a beast

Railway:

In most maps there is a train that got hit by a plane and jumped the rails. -> lame

Why not make a different scenario?

• Collision of 2 trains with full speed


• Destroyed railway cars next to the railway:
  Partisans did blow up supporting trains behind enemy lines. The destroyed railway cars were just left there rotting while the railway was fixed again.


• Train hit a car/tank:
  Destroyed vehicle was moved by the train and the train did jumped the rails


• Partisan attack:
  Rails are blown up and the train had to stop. Battle scars are left like dead soldiers, destroyed rails, burning railway cars


• Train stops in the middle of a forrest without a reason. Powercar is still under fire (smoke comes out of the chimney but there is no personal. Maybe ran away or was shot)


• A train did hit the trainstation with full speed. Pure destruction and the railway cars are scattered on the street in front of the trainstation.

Last edited October 23, 2011 at 3:46 PM by Killar

last dot sounds great  ;D

Killar wrote:
Railway:

In most maps there is a train that got hit by a plane and jumped the rails. -> lame

Why not make a different scenario?

.......
[list]
• A train did hit the trainstation with full speed. Pure destruction and the railway cars are scattered on the street in front of the trainstation.

I thought Lemberg was sorta like this?

yeah, but Lember has still train station. We are talking about total devastation of it :)

What about head on collision of two different trains? Malfunctioning switches or radio operators.

@ Cranial

Added in the list  ;D

Some of these ideas may be realized by me, there will be a Christmas present for EF by Maxi ;)

I get goose bumps when you promise a new mapping project  :o

Will be a 3v3, hopefully well balanced. I rely on my balancer comerades here. EF lacks a decent 3v3 map currently, so I want to fill that gap.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
Will be a 3v3, hopefully well balanced. I rely on my balancer comerades here. EF lacks a decent 3v3 map currently, so I want to fill that gap.

You did well already with the recent Kalach fix.

Looking forward to it  :D

cephalos wrote:
Nice ideas here, though I'd focus on 1v1 maps. We already have quite gamey 3v3s. The main poit is to show mappers what elements you would like to see in 1v1 map.

most of the 1v1 maps i have played on even though there meant for infantry they play heavy on half tracks and tanks espeacly the ai i would love to see a balanced map that plays strictly to infantry and locks out the tanks

Last edited July 6, 2013 at 6:24 AM by wolf420

by the way guys i loved the minsk map it was realy well done looks beautiful and yes i understand why it is so hard to ballance but i may have a few idieas for it

#1 leave the road as is for the tanks but make the other areas only passable by infantry a few well placed bolders other impassable objects would take care of that

#2 extend the map making it longer put the allied base on the other side of the cut off bridge and move the german base back to prevent arty spam you could also add another bridge leading across the river that could be destroyed

#3 make it a 6 to 8 player map for strictly infantry and maybe light support vehicles and more hills like the one by the allied base giving more places to fight over and adding to the fun

i know guys it's an old map but honestly tank rush and arty spam maps are so over done there just isn't enough good infantry larger maps

Last edited July 6, 2013 at 6:15 AM by wolf420