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[1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Balance Discussion

#92337

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Yauz wrote:
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FACTION BALANCE:

Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Reasoning: Although they lose more men, the PE player needs to kill 3-4 conscripts per every lost PG to win the manpower war, and this is not happening at all.  If USSR decides to get a 4th conscript, PE will lose map control very quickly.  Like USA, Soviets also cap faster than PGs, and the tank hunters that come later actually add to the rifle fire, making the pressure on the PGs too much to handle.
Solution: There needs to be some sort of slight nerf to CS, conscript, and TH rifles versus PGs.




yauz is right about this one, size squad of conscripts or theire health should be nerfed a bit. conscripts shuldnt be even matched vs PGs

Post Merge: [time]1317473696[/time]

Yauz wrote:
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Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.

this is also true, they are a bit too strong atm and very hard to kill and keep distance from them..

Last edited October 1, 2011 at 12:54 PM by neox88

#92339

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Yeah Neox and I had a nice game yesterday, he was overwhelmed by Partisans, his PGs were wrecked at CQB, but he didn't quite keep them at proper range nor in cover.

They are quite overpowered, but does anyone have their current Vet stat tables, they get Vet 1 from a single dead (3 man) PG squad IIRC, and i had a few of them running around with Vet yesterday and I'm interested in seeing what bonuses Vet offers.
#92360

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Partisans
6 0.85 rec dmg
12 1.2 acc
18 1.2 dmg
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#92364

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Just out of curiosity, are most (or even all) of these concerns Yauz brought up being addressed already? If so then I don't really see a reason why this thread should stay open for TOO long :P. We(the community) have basically addressed every single problem.
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#92366

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Some were addressed by the balance team before this thread was even started. Others have been considered since this thread began and we have taken action (not necessarily those proposed by Yauz).

At the very least, this thread proves why Yau belongs on the team again since most of the issues identified were also identified and discussed by our balance team independently.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#92367

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

I thought Yauz said he(or she, I honestly don't know the gender of anyone in EF) left the balance team voluntary :P?
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#92368

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Fishhunterx wrote:
I thought Yauz said he(or she, I honestly don't know the gender of anyone in EF) left the balance team voluntary :P?


Because of personality clashes with other people...whom won't be named but Yauz will tell you.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#92369

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Zerstörer?
"But risk has always been an inescapable part of warfare."
Grand Admiral Thrawn
#92375

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

OT: BTW what armor does Partisans have?  :P. Im kinda curious since you guys say they destroy Grenadiers :P
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#92382

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

This was due to their weapons that had incorrect long range stats. These have been corrected while short range was not affected much.

They have airborne, one of the weaker armour types.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#92385

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Fishhunterx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, are most (or even all) of these concerns Yauz brought up being addressed already? If so then I don't really see a reason why this thread should stay open for TOO long :P. We(the community) have basically addressed every single problem.


No.  If I see other problems arise, I will add on to the original post.  Again, please read.  If you don't like this thread, just don't feed it by posting here.


And about Zerst, it wasn't just a personality clash.  If for example, IF I personally didn't like Dennis (don't get me wrong, I do), but he was doing a great job leading the balance (which he is), and things were actually being changed and acted upon, I wouldn't leave; I would continue to raise inputs in the balance team.

I mainly left because there was absolutely NOTHING effective being done under Zerst.  It was pointless to stay.  It took thesis papers to get a nerf to Kats before, when they came at 3 CP.  And these nerfs were mainly useless...for example, the main problem was that the Kats came too early, but instead Zerst just raises the cost by 100 and keeps them at 3 CP...  Many things like the Sturmovie spam from previous patches were outright ignored.  In addition Sublime gets called fanboys...

Finally, there's something to be said about credibility.  Dennis and I can 1v1, and he can go toe to toe with me, and come out on top 60% of the time.  As for Zerst, hell I don't think he even plays the mod lol...and if he actually did, I can bet you he's a major noob.  And a noob leading the balance equals epic fail, as you can see with all the previous patches.

Last edited October 1, 2011 at 5:28 PM by Yauz

#92390

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Partisans
6 0.85 rec dmg
12 1.2 acc
18 1.2 dmg


Ehh, not so good (which isn't a bad thing in this case) I guess. Airborne has less received accuracy while on the move IIRC, making them good as intern assault troops before the RBS or Guards come by and say hi, which I believe will be their true calling in the next patch, harassment/assault troops. Be nice if they could get all SMGs through Vet......
#92405

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Show Partisans Are losing there long range, but not there short range?

Not complaining, like the idea, but I need to know for the future.
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

Coh Name: Seeme
#92422

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Yauz wrote:
Again, please read.  If you don't like this thread, just don't feed it by posting here.


Its not that I don't like it :P. I just feel there's no point in restating things that will already be fixed. But I see your point ;)

I guess partisians will now be like Volks :P
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#92450

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

sadness  :'( can i still pop randomly at of a building to destroy an mg holding up my inf advancing?
This game is balanced in everyway. Every Army has its strengths and weaknesses and you use your strengths to attack the enemy's weakness. If both players know this,than it turns into a game of skill.
-FOXYJAGER
#92492

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Since there's some confusion here and the change is basically final (not necessarily the only change to partisans) I'll say exactly what happened. The partisans have an assortment of weapons; 1volk MP40, 2 Strelky PPShs, 1 strelky mosin, 1 gren K98. Since both the strelky mosin and gren K98 are very powerful long range weapons, I replaced them with weaker ones, the conscript mosin and the PG K98 respectively. The conscript rifle is weaker at all ranges than the strelky mosin, which reduces effectiveness however the PG K98 may actually be better up close than the gren K98 but still weaker at long range and not as good vs troops in cover. Nerfed in this way, only their long range should have a noticeable performance drop while their short range damage should remain strong.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#92581

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

hands up for the work on this one m8, nice list!!
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#92584

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Welcome back Snugz :). I don't see a reason to close this topic, until the new patch is out this can be helpful.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#95608

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Yauz wrote:
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Zerstorer is cockblocking Snug and I from the balance team, so I cannot see the current balance changes for the next patch.  I will post all of Sublime's balance concerns for 1.510 here instead.  I will update this original post as new concerns arise as I play.

If you decide to post here, please READ THE WHOLE THING and think over what you are going to write, especially if you are a newbie player.  I don't want to see some irrelevant compstomp comments.  When you post, please quote the specific balance concern you are going to address or reply to.

FACTION BALANCE:

Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Reasoning: Although they lose more men, the PE player needs to kill 3-4 conscripts per every lost PG to win the manpower war, and this is not happening at all.  If USSR decides to get a 4th conscript, PE will lose map control very quickly.  Like USA, Soviets also cap faster than PGs, and the tank hunters that come later actually add to the rifle fire, making the pressure on the PGs too much to handle.
Solution: There needs to be some sort of slight nerf to CS, conscript, and TH rifles versus PGs.

Concern 2) In 2v2 early game, dual Soviets are at a severe disadvantage to both Wehr and PE.
Reasoning Versus dual Wehr, multiple MGs is guaranteed to lock down the high fuel, no matter how many conscripts come.  Even if you flank, it will not be enough, since MGs change directions, and any player worth their salt will have volks guarding.  Versus dual PE, PG spam just dominates the conscripts.  I know I just said PGs were underpowered versus CS and conscripts in 1v1, but apparently in 2v2 where there are large numbers of the squads, this is how it is.  In 2v2s, dual USA is valid because one player goes riflemen, while another can go WSC for snipers and MGs.  Soviets do not have this.
Solution: Make both barracks and the support center cost fuel, but also give the Soviets starting fuel, but only enough to build either the barracks or the support center.  Make the sniper and mortar available right after the support center is built (no upgrade needed).  Put the TH and AT gun together and make them cost an "Anti-tank Upgrade" that costs 2x the current cost of one of the support upgrades, and also make it reduce conscript reenforce cost by 4.

Concern 3) The KV2 is somewhat overpowered.
Reasoning: This is supposed to be an anti-blobbing tank like the StuH, so I understand it is supposed to do major damage to blobs.  However, it even does major damage to individual squads that aren't even blobbed together.  It 1-hit killed an entire volks squad once.  It is also very immune to panzershrecks, which I can kind of understand, since its an anti-infantry tool.  However it is also very resilient to PAK rounds too.  With such a strong gun and strong armor, its too much IMO.
Solution: Make its gun equal to the StuH's, OR make its armor more vulnerable to panzershrecks and PAK shots.

Concern 4) Katyushas are slightly too cost-efficient.
Reasoning: IIRC katyushas cost roughly 1/2 the manpower of a callipope.  The manpower price of the katyushas were based off of the number of rockets each shot.  However, katyushas have much higher damage per rocket and also less scatter.  Admittedly, katyushas have less armor and health and range than a callipope, but a good player will protect them well anyways, so that disadvantage is mainly negated.
Solution: Make the katyusha's manpower price in between 1/2 and 3/4 of a callipope's.

Concern 5) Tank Riders should be vulnerable to small arms fire.
Reasoning: They are currently as bad as kangaroos: 4 men shooting out and are invulnerable when they are on the vehicle.  Tank riders are more expensive than kangaroos, but they also come with guards, and the vehicle has a 76mm cannon attached to it.
Solution: Make the riding guards vulnerable to small arms fire.

Concern 6) Soviet snipers shoot too fast in respect to the other faction snipers.
Reasoning: USA snipers shoot slightly slower than Wehr snipers, since USA has more men per squad and have generally lower reenforce cost per man than Axis squads.  The USSR sniper currently shoots as fast as the USA sniper but the USSR has even more men per squad and generally even lower reenforce cost per man.
Solution: Make the USSR sniper shoot 30% slower than the USA sniper, but let it shoot faster by 15% at vet 1, and another 15% at vet 2, in addition to its current vet bonuses.

Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.
Reasoning: They cost more than a single gren squad, so I understand if they can beat a vet 0 gren squad.  But even at vet 3, grens will still handily lose to partisans.  PGs also get pushed around.
Solution: Please check the combat power of the partisans.


Finally, to end this post, I would like to thank my friends at the balance team: GodlikeDennis, Killar, CranialWizard, and of course, the Sublime-in-training Apeman.    :)  I feel the current balance team has totally turned this mod around under GodlikeDennis's leadership, and has moved EF one giant step forward into a credible and competitive mod.  This post is in no way meant to insult the balance team's efforts; only to point out minor balance problems that were probably unintended or missed.  Thank you for reading.


I haven't been on for a while so its good to be back ^^

OK now 1) Would having 4 scout cars be a more visable option to stopping this? I've seen it work vs riflemen shouldn't it work vs conscripts and CS?

2) I agree with this, though If you changed it wouldn't it change the 1v1 balance?

3) I think of the KV 2 as an AVRE, since churchills show moderate resilience to Paks why not the KV 2? Making it a Stug H would be a joke (since you can just use SU 122 for that.) Why not add a munition cost to the call in?

4) Maybe, I wont comment on this... yet

5) I feel Tank guards are weaker than Guards, I feel they should be snipable (like the Bren carrier) but not to small arms fire.

6) Yeah, that makes sense. Also annoying is it only gives 3 xp when it dies instead of 9 xp to the player who lost it. Not sure if the enemy recieves less xp either but that should also be changed.

7) Leave it to GLD...

OK Im done, Good to see everyone is still here ^^
OIY! Get your filthy hands off the Maus!
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#95667

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

all of these 7 listed points are already reworked/balanced in current beta version...
#95704

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Speaking of which. When will the next patch come out :P? Can we expect it by thanksgiving (Nov. 24 or 25 IIRC :-\)
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#95710

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

The balance team might be able to finish our changes by then but release will depend on the availability of the lead devs who are very busy with RL atm.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.

Last edited October 31, 2011 at 4:13 AM by GodlikeDennis

#96178

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

I would like to apologise in advance because most of the following focusses on thing that either puzzle, irritate or simple frustrate me, while there's been many many good changes as well. There's also most likely elements in my criticism that might balance the gameplay between different factions better and just appear odd or unreasonable to me ("pedantic realism"? hehe). In addition, I haven't been playing for quite a while between now and an wayyy old version, so many changes that probably went gradually appear abrupt to me. I'd like to express my fondness and appreciation in general for the whole EF Mod. You rock! - oh, and excuse me for pouring this into Yauz' thread - for some reason, I cannot create a new topic (nor reply-reply normally) because all my browsers believe the forum server is misconfigured, when I try to do so.

Now for the rant, thoughts, criticism:::


The Nashorn is a nifty addition/Flak replacement and the time needed to move/set-up seems fair. Great concept for a new kind of unit as mobile Flak8, but the rate at which a heavy MG squad destroys a Nashorn is ridiculous - a single HMG unit afflicts more damage/time to it than a lucky Sherman, whihc came close enough to the Nashorn to driving around it a few times. It is supposed to have a the chassis of a Panzer IV and not a motorcycles, right?


The riflemens anti-vehicle bombs do way too much damage on heavy armored cars. In addition, the car gets hit with the sticky bomb even when moving past the soldiers at full +accelerated speed, is often immobilized instantly and half way destroyed, which is way too much of an effect - the damage is basically the same to a scout car, which seems about fair on this one - even though it is quite frustrating to see an engine-damaged scout car (which has a mounted MG42) try to move away from a single squad of rookie riflemen+BAR while they take it apart, barely risking to lose one man out of six while the MG42 fires into their general direction without much of an effect. Something went wrong here with balancing, especially with the heavy armoured car vs riflemen. Scout cars MG42 has too little effect on infantry, the way I see it.

It also seems a little absurd that the vehicle needs to get repaired back to 100% in order for it's engine to work again/immobilization to be lifted. One would think that gaining back mobility has priority in an repair effort made in the field. But here, I can imagine it makes sense for balancing.

An American/Infantry Howitzer barrage aimed at a single civilian building with enemy troops in it is accurate enough as to noticeably damage the building (which looks awesome) but leaves the troops inside unharmed. That's a bit odd to look at.

At random, WM (Terror) Stormtroopers engage enemy troops when camouflaged, even though told to hold fire.

Why was the squad size of soviet shock guards decreased to 4? The way it feels to me from subjective gaming, it is way too likely now that a whole squad gets lost in one lucky hit from mortar/artillery/tiger.

I suspect they were simply too strong - especially with their slowdown (which i really miss... alot) - this made them particularly awesome to fetch enemy weaponry like panzerfaust/lmg42- which they now can no longer pick up at all after being upgraded with mid/short range weapons. I think this is sad.

Before they changed, i liked that they differed from banner strelky by walking combat-ready out of the garrison - without the need to upgrade them any further with a specialisation. On that note, Soviets have plenty of close range specialists already; the mid-range rifles seem the most sensible path.

Producing them requires three upgrades and ALL soviet base structures - isn't that enough? Why even more upgrades to make them work? The small squad size makes them quite disappointing - especially with them being unable to pick up even a single MG42/Panzerfaust. They are supposed to be the best russian infantry squad, afterall.

Why is it that soviet mortar teams can engage cloaked (and holding fire) snipers, even while there's no other sojviet unit around to spot/decloak the sniper for them?

It is very frustrating to witness soldiers getting "overrun" and killed by touching a barely moving enemy tank, running next to it, going faster than the tank with destroyed engine. I'm aware one could technically get crushed from a tank that is only moving very slowly - but at a certain pace and angle of soldier-to-tank, this looks like the soldiers deliberately commit suicide, not the tank killing them.

When i come to think of it - maybe a vehicle like the heavy armoured car should be able to kill infantry while running through them at full force - instead of "bouncing off" of the enemy infantry, what it is occasionally doing at the moment. This might even balance out that two squads of rifle men with sticky bombs have such an easy time disposing off the anti-infantry armoured car.

(AI controlled) tanks occasionally retreat by driving backwards, straight through another tank.

PIAT troops tend to damage/destroy the structure/emplacement they were just repairing because while firing at an approaching enemy vehicle, they miraculously hit what's right in front of them instead of what they are shooting at - even though the arch of the flying PIAT projectile suggests they can fire over an obstacle.

British Vickers MG emplacement efficiency against PE infantry is (suddenly?) ridiculously low - squads of Fallschirmjäger or with Panzerschreck or assault rifles can stroll towards it directly and they take it apart within seconds - the MG does little damage and rarely manages to suppress the enemy infantry even with them being bloody rookies.

The attack movement of british troops, both rifle squads and PIAT-sappers is sometimes rather weird - they walk very very closely to both enemy infantry and vehicles and hence do not fire PIAT or Bren. Especially in open field where there's no cover to direct them to instead of just aiming at the enemy forces, this behaviour is quite disturbing. - What I mark as a positive change is Rifle squads with the Bren upgrade receiving two Brens now, giving them decent to good effectiveness against both infantry and light vehicles. PIAT troops often take awfully long to aim/shoot - as if they'd be waiting for the enemy vehicle to begin moving again, just so they'll miss it.
#96179

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

@Stinkwolf
Nashorn has Hummel's chassis. Just checked and has halftrack criticals(Hummel has the same) and these will be changed to Marder criticals instead.

The Stormtroopers bugged camo should be fixed for the next patch.

About Guards, they aren't supposed to replace Strelky as main infantry, that's why they got nerfed. Also they didn't need to have that huge squad size (previously 6 now 4). We took in consideration that they are late game troops, specialists to support your infantry or tanks and also sometimes is hard to find cover for big squads and that could make some difference in the outcome of a battle ^^.

Bren lmg upgrade has always granted two weapons per Infantry section (IIRC... unless it was bugged until now ^^).

Any AI mortar can target cloaked units not only soviets (that's a "feature" of CoH AI, it can foresee the enemy forces approaching :P).

About the vCoH feedback, that's just Relic stuff and we do not want to mess with it atm.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

Last edited November 7, 2011 at 8:23 PM by blackbishop

#96200

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

That was alot of text to read through. you should try making it into list format so its easier 2 read :D Like this
-Example 1
-Example 2
-Example 3

Anyways the changes you have a concern about like the sticky bombs and the Brits not firing their weps on the move. Those are vCOH and devs don't like to touch those things :P

And Guards are more like KCH. They come late and requre alot since they are so powerful :P

Also Scout Cars are suppose to be like oversized Jeeps or Motorbikes. Dont expect them to destroy rifleman like the AC does
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#96212

Re: [1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

Thank you for the behind-the-scenes insights, Blackbishop, especially about the "features" - i just never noticed this before. And also about the feedback in general, Fishhunterx - yeah, i just kept collecting notes for quite a while and puked them out in one shot.

Well, I figured that I was just spoiled from the shock guards former squad size - and hunting WM panzerschreck squads or PE Panzerjäger was just way too much fun with the suppression ability - so I miss it now. But I guess it makes sense for balancing - they were very very tough if not impossible to kill, even for KCH, who had to get really close to overpower them. And with a few Panzerschrecks, they turned into a tough-to-hit tank on twelve legs.