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1.501 Russia VS. PE

Balance Discussion

#90087

1.501 Russia VS. PE


I haven't played this match-up enough to be 100% certain about the following assertions,

but I'm going to throw it out there now and maybe get some tips on how to handle what I think are a couple overly effective tools at turning PE units into kibble. 

I've found the Wehr vs Russia matchup to be pretty well balanced now( I think prop war just brings far too much constant artillery to the table when coupled with a single howitzer emplacement, and that those rocket trucks should at the very least do less damage to vetted tanks than they do, but other than that I think things have really arrived), so I'm not sure what the solution should be to my following issues...

Tank Hunters - are fine in their earliest incarnation.  After the upgrade they are just straight stupid against everything but PE infantry, and panzer IV's with skirts AS WELL AS mgs to prevent getting mobbed while kiting.  Nothing else even needs to be mobbed. 

Stuff just evaporates from the other side of the map when a few upgraded tank hunters get on scene.  They kill fast, at their most extreme range, making light vehicles simply a liability.  This really makes T34's effective, because they will be quite punishing to PE infantry that can't keep marders or AT halftracks alive due to passing target practice. 

Add in guards and everythying else is just gravy.  Guards just do not die, and with their long range rifles, they murder PE infantry.  This makes infantry exchanges seem shockingly unbalanced to me.  It is not like Pe infantry is cheap. 

To get 360 manpower 4 man PE squad slaughtered in moments, and to not be able to return the favor, or to be able to bring any counter to the table because it will combust within firing radius of tank hunters, and to have precious few artillery options to compensate for losing the duke-it-out game(that is by all right's PE's in its other match-ups) leaves a pretty simple road map to game set match for Russia, as far as I can tell. 

Ooh...I will admit to not thinking about using goliaths...that could work so long as there is no command squad in play, but an expensive fireworks display otherwise. 

Is there something I'm missing?
#90091

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

How about an AC ktting TH. Or a mass of G43 PG. MH used to thin out blob? Panther BG ??? Maybe some Hetzers or Jagdpanzer IV to fight T-34? Just throwing stuff out there :P
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#90113

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

@ Joshua9

PE's biggest strength is the ability to wage asymmetrical warfare.  To win, exploit this to the max.

vs Tank Hunters Alone:
Don't fight his Tank Hunters with light vehicles / armored cars.  Instead, kite and use them as bait.  When the tank hunters charge, run the vehicles behind your G43 PGs.  The tank hunters will either retreat or get torn up.  Note that "baiting" does not mean you have to pull your ACs so far back that they cannot do any damage.  You can still kite and do damage to the Tank Hunters, just make sure they have that layer of PG support in front of them.

vs Guards Alone:
Likewise, don't fight Guards or other elite infantry with PGs.  Now is the time to be aggressive with those light vehicles.  As strong as Guards are against PGs, they are near useless vs anything with wheels that is kiting.

vs Tank Hunter / Guard combo:
In the case your enemy blobs both TH and Guards, then such a massive amount of infantry warrants the purchase of a mortar halftrack.  Use the bait trick mentioned and let his blob come charge your G43s.  Time your mortar barrages and rip them apart.

Additional Tips:
Don't buy the 360 manpower PGs btw...they are overpriced manpower-wise and not worth the free Mp44s they come with.  Suck it up and buy G43s instead.  Also, Guards do seem strong vs PGs, but with each level of vet, PGs can increasingly stand toe-to-toe with them.  This is due to the fact that PG vet is better than Guard vet.

If you want more examples, you can download my 1.51 replaypack from the Replays Section.  It has a few PE vs USSR games.
#90114

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Yauz' advice is solid. Also, while Wehr goliaths are now detectable, PE ones still can't be. The CS detection won't be an issue.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#90124

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE


I have to concur that the advice is good, but the practice is so much more complicated.  trying to micro all those things and to  find that pitch perfect range(which I'm still skeptical even exists) with your light vehicles and trying to run away squads that are perishing right and left at the same exact time, while russia simply has to charge forward, or zigzag about, whatever tune he's singing in his head really, does not make for a balanced battle between opponents of equal skill. 

I know from wehr mortars just how effective mortars can be against Russian infantry, so I should definitely try to get those into the mix to stave off  the guard/tank hunter debacle, though I start getting particularly nervous about those light vehicles...maybe it will help me soften the russian infantry and keep them running home, giving me more map control before russia hits that critical mass. 

Given that conscripts just start dissapearing from the game, and yield crap vet(understdandably), and given just how ridiculously hard it is to put down a single guard in a squad(I was focus firing a crawling squad with 3 g43's for 30 seconds, at inbetween close and medium range, and managed to kill 2 before I got run off by the 2 survivors and a backup), I think guards should definitely yield more experience.

I will definitely check out those replays, thanks for pointing me to them.
#90125

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

I agree. Guard are extremely hard to kill with other infantry. I had like 2-3 vet 3 grens with shreck and mg and they couldn't kill it. Reinforcements came and I had to run :'(.

Try using snipers. Hoever I think Guards take several sniper hits to kill like KCH :P
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#90127

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Joshua9 wrote:
I will definitely check out those replays, thanks for pointing me to them.


np.  You can find my replaypack for this current patch here:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=6750.0

Hopefully you can see how my advice is actually executed in-game better when watching those replays.

EDIT: I just checked out those replays in the pack where I played as PE vs USSR, and it seems the games ended very fast, without much heavy Tank Hunter / Guard mob or end-game action.  Perhaps next time I'll post another replay pack where I play more games as PE vs USSR in the future.

Last edited September 15, 2011 at 6:45 AM by Yauz

#90264

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE


I'm not really reassured by those 1v1's...first, nobody used tank hunters in any of them(although this certainly didn't prevent a couple of the games from handily going to the russian player)...which perplexes me given just how devastating they are to every vehicle on the field, and given that they just don't die fast enough to pe infantry to be any sort of liability when built against the wrong strat. 

after playing a bunch more games tonight, this just cannot be a balanced matchup currently. 


Aside from the occasional fast ac, 90 percent of my unit choices are worthless. Tank hunters simply make them combust, presumably by shooting mind bullets.  "Because they are the kwisatz haderach!"

It should not be that easy. 

#90265

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Tank hunters changes for the next patch are already made.
#90266

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Killar wrote:
Tank hunters changes for the next patch are already made.


Sooooo, they're being nerfed ???
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Om Nom Nom Nom
"Panzer-Guppy ready for battle!"
"Ha Ha Ha! We have the ZEAL!"
"Grenadiers! Fall In!!"
#90267

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Adjusted. no spoiler here  ;D
#90270

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Killar wrote:
Adjusted. no spoiler here  ;D


Darn :(. So close and yet so far :P
Forum post image
Om Nom Nom Nom
"Panzer-Guppy ready for battle!"
"Ha Ha Ha! We have the ZEAL!"
"Grenadiers! Fall In!!"
#90338

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE


That is good to hear.  I think their range is just too long.  It would be cool if they had a set up option, like an MG, that would give them that range but lock them in place though(I think modern combat is going to have a unit that works like this), but that's probably too much work to implement.
#90340

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

I don't think there is anything wrong with Tank Hunters tbh.  They're fairly expensive already, costing over a Grenadier squad.  I've yet to see them as OP  ::)  They just do what they are meant to do, and that is kill vehicles, and they can be kited and defeated by infantry.

Joshua9, I would like to play a friendly 1v1 with you and see you prove your point about these Tank Hunters being so OP.  PM me please.
#90341

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Yauz wrote:
Joshua9, I would like to play a friendly 1v1 with you and see you prove your point about these Tank Hunters being so OP.  PM me please.


Can any of you broadcast this?  :D
#90343

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Killar wrote:
Yauz wrote:
Joshua9, I would like to play a friendly 1v1 with you and see you prove your point about these Tank Hunters being so OP.  PM me please.


Can any of you broadcast this?  :D


I will post the replay.  Joshua9 can use the USSR and use those combinations that he thinks are overpowered, such as the Guards and Tank Hunters.  If these unit combinations are truly that overpowered against PE, it will clearly show in the replay.

This is not meant to be a hostile challenge btw, just a friendly 1v1 match to clarify the current balance.  Again, I don't believe Tank Hunters or Guards are OP against PE.  Only the Tank Riders ability was a problem, but that is being fixed.
#90344

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Nonsense imo because these units are adjusted already
#90345

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Why in fucks name would you adjust a unit that there is nothing wrong with.  Tank Hunters are fine.  If you nerf them anymore USSR will have to eat shit versus Wehr T3.

Last edited September 15, 2011 at 8:28 PM by Yauz

#90346

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Only little changes that improve their performance
#90348

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

They don't deserve a performance buff either.  IMO they were perfectly fine.  If you buff them they will be too strong now...  WTF did you guys do?
#90355

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

You did get me wrong. It was only adjusted. Didn´t want to make a spoiler here like said earlier. They are fine now.
#90356

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Something was addressed to adjust their combat vs t3 PE and wehr
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#90364

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Spoiler? It's not a plot twist. What's to spoil?
Steam
CoH name: totalrecall
#90365

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Let me see, it spoils part of the changelog contents for the new patch. That's enough for me :P.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

Last edited September 15, 2011 at 10:08 PM by blackbishop

#90366

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Cranialwizard wrote:
Something was addressed to adjust their combat vs t3 PE and wehr


WTF is so wrong with TH vs PE T3 right now?  ACs vs TH are fine.  You either kite with the AC or the TH kill you.  ACs have the range to kite, and TH have the firepower to kill ACs that don't.  Its plain, simple, and worked perfectly fine...
#90369

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

It was not because of the T3 PE  :P
#90371

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

I find acs to be fairly effective actually, especially given the point where they can enter the game against russia.  The games i've won have revolved around the 2 ketten to ac start, and the mp44 infantry to handle the inevitable tank hunters, which will be popping up at best, right when the acs hit the field. 

This is all that seems to work though, and that's a predictable direction to go in every single game.  Other strategies tend to yield slightly better or oscilating map control, but not enough to put the nail in russias coffin.  The problem is that this is not a stalemate, this is a win for the soviet faction, because as the game progresses it is russia that hits critical mass.  2 guards and a command squad, 3 or 4 lingering conscripts, 2 t34's, 4 or 5 upgraded tank hunters...

one of the things my friend does is to wait on that command squad, and I think this limits the impact of an early pe rush to cutoff.  If I could shoot at his major, I could keep 250 manpower off the field. Insead I get swarmed with conscripts, and killing 7 men is not significantly better than him killing 2 of mine.  Eventually I have to leave to reinforce...when I come back his cutoffs are defended with what must equal to british mg nests for range.  Yeah, this slows down his tech...if my vehicle effectiveness didn't plateu against russia by mid game, this wiould be a win for me.
Post Merge: [time]1316126175[/time]



as to your friendly challenge Yauz, I would like to play you.  I'm not the one playing as russia in my games right now so I'll have to figure out what he's doing and try to recreate it in top-notch form, and if nothing else this may give me some tips on how to approach Russia from a player that is better than myself, though until I attempt to implement those against my buddy who has been evenly matched with me for years, I would be hesitent to say simply because you kicked my butt, that you have the right of it. 

It is significantly a matter of ease of implementation, and using those russian units is just plain easy by comparisson.

my game name is josh9, we'll have to find a time that works.

Last edited September 15, 2011 at 10:36 PM by Joshua9

#90372

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Joshua9 wrote:

as to your friendly challenge Yauz, I would like to play you.  I'm not the one playing as russia in my games right now so I'll have to figure out what he's doing and try to recreate it in top-notch form, and if nothing else this may give me some tips on how to approach Russia from a player that is better than myself, though until I attempt to implement those against my buddy who has been evenly matched with me for years, I would be hesitent to say simply because you kicked my butt, that you have the right of it. 

It is significantly a matter of ease of implementation, and using those russian units is just plain easy by comparisson.

my game name is josh9, we'll have to find a time that works.


I've added you right now.  Hell, I can even play your buddy whos been beating you with Russians if you want.  If I win him with PE, then perhaps you can analyze the replay.

My in-game name is SublimeYauz ofc.  I'm in-game right now, and will probably be on for the next hour or so.

Last edited September 15, 2011 at 10:49 PM by Yauz

#90380

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

I'm at work,

heh.."working"

and won't be free to play until Saturday probably
#90415

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

russian tankhunters are totally OP vs all PE vehicles and wehr t3/t4... as PE its nearly impossible to build vehicles vs TH-spam... this crazy tank-hunter inf kills an ostwind vet1 or PE panzer IV with skirts (both anti-inf-tanks!!! lol!) instant it seems... the problem on that is, that PE grens have serious problems killing this fuXing anti-tank-inf... it seems they have superman armor... its just ridiculous...
#90417

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Again:

Tankhunters were already adjusted for good. Tested already and works very well now.

Even in the current patch tank hunters die like flies when engaging G43 and STG44 Squads
#90421

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Yauz wrote:
They don't deserve a performance buff either.  IMO they were perfectly fine.  If you buff them they will be too strong now...  WTF did you guys do?


i know they were already changed killar, just wanted to respond to yauz's statement....

Killar wrote:


Even in the current patch tank hunters die like flies when engaging G43 and STG44 Squads


... that was the problem... they were specialist in killing tanks and sepcialist in surviving enemy inf fire (even from g43).... so totally op... lets wait and hope for more balanced anti-tank inf...

Last edited September 16, 2011 at 12:13 PM by donthateme

#90670

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

arg....

THOUGHT I had a breakthrough....wasn't really engaging conscripts at the proper range to be killing them fast with my early infantry. was still using htem as if I were playing against US..staying long and kiting...

game still plays out the same in the end.  I don't care what gets nerfed but one of the following should be changed, in my unprofessional opinion...either tank hunters and guards lose their survivability against PE units or just get rid of the goddamn mg nest which in my opinion has no place in the russian army. their mg nest happens to have an incredibly large zone of control.  Do these have brit mg ranges? if so why?  Russians already have that cool little trick of jumping all over the place on the map, and it is VERY effective at making tank hunters and guards even more ridiculous to deal with.  Russians just  don't need static defense to hold territory, let alone the really good shit....it would be nice if I could put them on the defensive somewhere, but with a little bit of resources a huge wing of the map gets protected and I get to focus all my energy defending against overruns and flanks and hit and runs...etc. 

getting rid of mg nests is definitely my favorite option, because right now wehr seems well balanced with russia(prop war arty options still steem too powerful and prolific to me), and given that wehr already need artillery to counter blobs, russian mg nests are negligable in their effectiveness, and wouldn't be terribly missed. 

But PE doesn't have the arty, and it doesn't have the infantry superiority that it enjoys against America or Brit. It has mortar halftracks, which would work if it weren't so damn easy for tank hunters to blitz in(By themselves most of the time), take out the hapless halftrack, and then retreat to their staging point to attack from a new vector. 
As one minor annoying aside, it doesn't seem entirely right to me that the russian Major's artillery outranges the sight range of the people he is dropping it on.  Too often there's no smoke, and having absolutely no warning and not even an ominous presence lurking on the fringes of my vision to give me the presence of mind to back up, I often lose full capping squads that I had no way of knowing were in the line of fire.
#90678

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Quotegetting rid of mg nests is definitely my favorite option, because right now wehr seems well balanced with russia(prop war arty options still steem too powerful and prolific to me), and given that wehr already need artillery to counter blobs, russian mg nests are negligable in their effectiveness, and wouldn't be terribly missed

Maybe you want to replace the MG nest with the 61-k 37 mm AA gun as basic defence structure ? Maybe it can be featured in the Breakthrough doctrine and can be built with Mechs. And about the M-30, maybe it can be doctrinal ? In the Propaganda doc i think. And no defence structure for Urban Doc ?
Who am i?
#90684

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Mr.Q wrote:
Quotegetting rid of mg nests is definitely my favorite option, because right now wehr seems well balanced with russia(prop war arty options still steem too powerful and prolific to me), and given that wehr already need artillery to counter blobs, russian mg nests are negligable in their effectiveness, and wouldn't be terribly missed

Maybe you want to replace the MG nest with the 61-k 37 mm AA gun as basic defence structure ? Maybe it can be featured in the Breakthrough doctrine and can be built with Mechs. And about the M-30, maybe it can be doctrinal ? In the Propaganda doc i think. And no defence structure for Urban Doc ?


I think not.

And MG nest are rarely built in 1v1s or even 2v2s to an extent. They aren't game changing, but when you do see one it's quite a nice flavor to the mix. I never build one in competitive games and I'm sure the other balancers say the same about the MG. It looks like it's here to stay.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#90694

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE


I know they are rarely built in competitive games by better players.  I feel like maybe that's why nobody could imagine how effective a little mg could be for russia. given how well it compliments their other tricks.  You can't just hit a russian mg by flanking it and taking it out when there are no russian infantry there to guard it...because there is never a time when there's no infantry there.  If you make a move they just waypoint retrat to the truck they have parked in the vicinity.  I f you try to park a mortar halftrack out there to take it down, its going to be Very hard to keep it alive, and the ammount of attention and time its going to take is going to be a problem.

#90695

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

I should add it takes a while for a MHT to take an mg nest down. By then your enemy should have already attempted to make an effort to stop you, maybe 2  :(. They're not letting 300mp and 15 fuel go down the drain :P
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Om Nom Nom Nom
"Panzer-Guppy ready for battle!"
"Ha Ha Ha! We have the ZEAL!"
"Grenadiers! Fall In!!"
#90701

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

MG nests are fine.  USA and Brits have them too, and they can actually work well in some rare situations, even in competitive 1v1s / 2v2s.

I'll say this again; don't fuck with what is not broken.
#90707

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

Yauz wrote:
I'll say this again; don't fuck with what is not broken.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#90712

Re: 1.501 Russia VS. PE

As looks like this topic is done, I'll close it.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...