[1.51] Tank Riders

I'll be blunt.  There's a serious problem with the Tank Rider call-in that I think the balance team overlooked.

Currently, the call in gives PPS43 guards and a T34/76 or 85.
Tank Riders call-in cost:
TOTAL OF: 650 mp (regardless of cannon)

Here are the normal unit costs:
T34/76: 360mp 70 fuel
T34/85: 400mp 80fuel
PPS43 Guards: 340mp, 60 mun
TOTAL OF: 700-740 manpower, 70-80 fuel, 60 munitions

Its a difference of 50-90 manpower, 70-80 fuel, and 60 munitions.  Not to mention that the Tank Guards are invulnerable to small arms when on the tank.  The call-in is also instant, instead of having a build time like the normal units, and also bypasses all prerequisites, such as the Tank Hall.

I don't think the balance team intended this, and it was probably just overlooked, but fix this shit.

Tank Riders can be killed on the tank IIRC.

That still dosent change the cost.

I agree this should be changed. Maybe 800 MP?

Cranialwizard wrote:
Tank Riders can be killed on the tank IIRC.

Yes

Yauz wrote:
Not to mention that the Tank Guards are invulnerable to small arms when on the tank.

Please read.  And stop ignoring the rest of the post.  Even if they are vulnerable to everything when they are on the tank, there is still a clear problem.

Swearing is not too much of a problem here, but please do not swear in that manner.

Last edited September 9, 2011 at 6:10 PM by WartyX

Yauz wrote:
Please fucking read.  And stop ignoring the rest of the post.  Even if they are vulnerable to everything when they are on the tank, there is still a clear problem.

That they are invulnerable to small arms im not quite sure. This must be changed ofc.

Considering that tankriders are too cheap. 750mp would be a good price but not more. (400mp + 340mp max)

Dont use the word fuck here.

Its the internet.  Don't be so sensitive.  750 manpower is still not good enough.  Being doctrinal doesn't mean you can call in PPS43 Guards and T34s without fuel and munitions without further compensation.  If this were the final ability on the tree like Tiger / KT / IS-3 I wouldn't mind the no fuel cost, but right now, no.

Every other faction has to pay fuel out of the ass for their tanks.  Other call-ins like StuH / Hetzer / Churchill also do not cost fuel but are much worse than this call-in, since they are only half-assed tanks.  A Jagpanzer IV (no upgrades) costs around the same as this call-in of PPS43 guards and T34s.

Last edited September 9, 2011 at 12:42 AM by Yauz

What do you suggest than?

Killar wrote:
What do you suggest than?

Still thinking about it atm, but definitely not just 750.  The problem is the call-in is a little too weak to be end-game call-in like Tiger / ISU, etc, but is way too strong to be a normal 4 CP call-in like Jagdpanzer / Hetzer / Churchill.

It was probably only tested against Wehr, where vetted shreck grens and PAKs can tear it apart, but against PE that has to pay fuel for all their AT cannons, its really OP.

If you make it even more expensive mp wise it will get unattraktive again.

Its a 5CP call in btw.

750MP is a right price. It ballances the cheapness of a 2.602 StuH and Tiger I. But the call in should allways be a T-34/76.

Multiply call-ins were allways cheaper. OMCG, PE Panthers and early COH StuH and Tiger (with Stormtroopers) callins were all cheaper. Ostheer Foreign Groop will probably be fairly cheap.

Yauz wrote:
It was probably only tested against Wehr, where vetted shreck grens and PAKs can tear it apart, but against PE that has to pay fuel for all their AT cannons, its really OP.

T-34 gun could also be nerfed vs Hetzer armor (just like M-10/M-18 gun is).

I'll count not having a build time or prerequisites, and the tank riding thing as a compensation for being doctrinal.

If its 750 manpower, there's still a difference of 70-80 fuel and 60 munitions.  80 fuel is a lot; as much fuel for a Panzer 4.  Also, the fact that you don't have to pay for the PPS43s makes the future IL-2 strike more spammable.

With PE Panther Battlegroup, you need to pay a lot of fuel to unlock it.  This call-in on the other hand, just comes after 5 CPs; 0 fuel required.

Last edited September 9, 2011 at 5:23 AM by Yauz

750 mp and 20 fuel ??? Would that float your boat? :P. Any higher and it would seem....not fully worth it? I mean really who has 800+mp sitting under their arse unless they're waiting for something big like an IS-3 or several IS-2's ::). And the tank guards are vunerable enough :P. MG fire can  do a number on them but then again, the tank can do a number on the MG :P

Are the tank riders vunerable to sniper fire on the tank?

Yauz wrote:
If its 750 manpower, there's still a difference of 70-80 fuel and 60 munitions.  80 fuel is a lot; as much fuel for a Panzer 4.  Also, the fact that you don't have to pay for the PPS43s makes the future IL-2 strike more spammable.

With PE Panther Battlegroup, you need to pay a lot of fuel to unlock it.  This call-in on the other hand, just comes after 5 CPs; 0 fuel required.

Remember its a doctrinal unlock. You can´t compare it with a panther battlegroup, that is always buildable.

Paciats idea actually is quite good.

the point is you cant make it more expensive
the isu-152 costs only 50mp more (if we increase the costs to 750mp) it makes the whole call in totaly unattractive if it becomes too expensive.

i think 750mp are realy good
and if you want to get the 85mm version you still need to research the upgrade (which isnt cheap)


and yes plz dont use the fuck word :D

Maybe the tank rider ability should be 2 cp and just unlock(!) the ability for guards to ride all produced(!) t-34?
but then on the other hand Isu-152 would come to early
i never liked the t-34 call in anyway cause you can just build the units...
the lend lease sherman was kinda cool 8)

LL sherman sucks hard. Though Pauly3 is right, why don't give guards posibility to ride on produced tanks?

we have a solution already  :)

the guards on the tanks suck ass, snipers or german units with autoguns will tear them a new one so fast that the tank can't even turn its' turret,so it's basicaly just a call-in t-34 with camo-painting :D

cephalos wrote:
LL sherman sucks hard. Though Pauly3 is right, why don't give guards posibility to ride on produced tanks?

For aesthetics reasons :).

I talked to Dennis.  750 manpower and a restriction of only calling in T34/76s was the bottom line.  I've grudgingly accepted it, since I trust his judgement.  Case closed.

wait wait wait.... just increase the cooldown time, its only a little longer then an Su 76 call in, that would bring better balance as to stop any spam. the cp it takes to get it is already enough. as for manpower if its a regular t34 it can be 600. if its an upgunned 85 then 650. then you might asked, well im not gonna get an upgrade to save 50 manpower. well, then what are you gonna pierce panther/tiger armour with???

lock pls