Regarding 1.501 Conscripts

Desert_Fox wrote:
Conscripts are now good only in early game and with Molotov upgrade; totally useless in late game.

k guys,  I know a lot of people did not like removing conscript vet because it took away their scaling.  I didn't like the removal either, but it was apparently not up to the balance team, since it was shoved down their throats.  So as a compensation, the balance team gave them a gradually reducing reenforce cost to scale better late game, and also an option of full rifles when you go FTML.  A lot of people still see them as useless late game however, and at first it may appear that way.  I will attempt to explain the mechanics.

COMBAT: "How can my conscripts stand up to vet 3 infantry late game?"
They're actually pretty angry with full rifles and at 8 reenforce per man with no upkeep.  You can get a maximum of 5 conscript squads, and assuming you get full rifles for all the squads, you have 40 guns shooting at something.  If you focus fire with 40 guns, I'm pretty sure you will hit something.  Please continue reading, since reenforce cost ties heavily into combat.

REENFORCE COST / UPKEEP
Now lets compare reenforce cost.  A single grenadier (we can assume he is vet 3) costs 37 reenforce.  A conscript costs 8 reenforce late game.  To win the manpower war a single vet 3  grenadier will have to kill 4 conscripts before getting killed himself.  If you put it in that scenario, 4 conscripts vs a single vet 3 grenadier is actually a very close fight.  Victory will depend on who has better cover / micro, and whether the conscripts have Command Squad global bonuses to help them.  Also please factor in the fact that conscript squads have no upkeep, while Axis squads do have upkeep.

SUPPRESSION AND OTHER FACTORS
You won't just have your conscripts.  You will have the Command Squad and other extra squads, so the conscripts can also serve as a buffer shield.  Also, if you went For the Motherland to access the full rifles, you can activate it to break suppression.  This, along with the CS Charge ability makes MG42 suppression less of an issue.  Also, even though conscripts are frail, they happen to take an extremely long time to suppress if they are sitting in green.

Sure they die like flies to proper blob counters like mortars and artillery, but then all infantry, even Rangers, Falls, Guards, KCH, etc do too.  The trick is to use micro with them.  Finally, as for the 50 munitions cost, it does sound a bit hefty, but this is because the conscript spam was meant to compliment a fast vehicle strategy, and once you do spend 250 munitions for all 5 squads you can actually stand toe to toe with vet 3 infantry (don't forget that Wehr vet or PE weapons also cost resources).  I've personally used this strategy, and I think it is effective if used right, or a disaster if used wrong, which does indicate good balance.

Last edited August 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM by Yauz

Although these points are true, this means that players are now forced to make a decison b/w having full rifles and going urban, or chosing the other doctrne they actually want.

And at 3cp it doesnt come fast. You will be at a slight disadvantage(depending on how you use you conscipts) until FTML rolls out.

And if you did chose say BT these conscripts are suppose to support armor right with all their rifles? Well now they cant get all their rifles and this strategy is weakened that much more.

And a vet 3 gren squad will probably have an MG42 or shreck, use nades and cover, and kite you to keep you at long range. Gven these factors, a conscript squad vs a gren squad will probably lose 1vs1, even w/o full vet.

I understand the conscripts were changed due to balance. But they kinda feel extremely fragile now. They're like glass cannons without the firepower :(.

Last edited August 27, 2011 at 7:51 PM by Fishhunterx

Actually to implement the full rifles into a doctrine was very brilliant for saving this ability from getting deleted. Giving the full rifles as a global unlock like bars makes consis too strong.

Using Soviet infantries need a skilled combination between classes ( except the snipers). Command squad and Cons in early game is a major thread for the Pios and Volks in the early game but in the mid and late game they start to become meat shields for anti-infantries vehicles.  And true only good microing can save them in mid game. So far, i only use my remaining cons for capping point in mid game, i always use them to capture the strategic points to cut off the fuel of the Axis so that they can't produce heavy vehicles.

Right now my conscripts spend more time at my HQ being reinforced than actually fighting. They're simply too fragile late-game. Vet (like retreat) is one of those core mechanics that is central to CoH and every unit should have it.

Yes, as mentioned, I think most people preferred conscript vet to stay; however it was not the balance team's fault that this was taken away.  As I mentioned this change was shoved down their throats, so they can only compensate by lowering the conscript reenforce costs.

I think there's just a mind trick people fall for when using their conscripts.  They'll see their conscripts dying in hordes and think the situation is a lot worse than it seems, however this is not the case.  In late game if 11 of your Conscripts die for every 2 of their Panzergrenadiers, you may feel discouraged and feel conscripts are too fragile and think a massacre occurred.
However, you should realize you just won the manpower war, as 11 conscripts are cheaper to reenforce than 2 Panzergrenadiers.  I cannot stress this enough.  The conscript initial cost is also cheaper and they have no upkeep.

As for FTML (Full Rifles) being 3 CP, Conscripts don't absolutely need FTML / Full Rifles to function.  They can serve as meat shields for your Guards that do the main damage (Just like Grens do the main damage instead of un-upgraded Volks).  So, if you don't opt for full rifles, perhaps you would not choose to build any more conscripts late game (Just like Wehr usually doesn't choose to build Volks over Grens late game), but they will still be worth to reenforce to serve as meat-shields.

Last edited August 27, 2011 at 11:18 PM by Yauz

Yauz wrote:
I think there's just a mind trick people fall for when using their conscripts.  They'll see their conscripts dying in hordes and think the situation is a lot worse than it seems, however this is not the case.  In late game if 11 of your Conscripts die for every 2 of their Panzergrenadiers, you may feel discouraged and feel conscripts are too fragile and think a massacre occurred.
However, you should realize you just won the manpower war, as 11 conscripts are cheaper to reenforce than 2 Panzergrenadiers.  I cannot stress this enough.  The conscript initial cost is also cheaper and they have no upkeep.

+1

If you watch it from this point of view, many balance concerns will be gone.

Its true that Conscript vet really wasn't that important (Vet1 - Recrew weps, Vet2 - full rifles, Vet3 - fighting improved ???)

But lossing your vet makes you fell like something is missing :'(. Like no matter how hard your conscripts fight they will never get better :P

True, i really want those conscripts's vet back, they kinda useful in some occasions like the recrewing weapons.

Conscripts were never able to capture heavy weapons and emplacements in the first place :P.

:-X Oops i thought he was right. Because when my conscript got to vet 1 i just want to blobing them with other supporting units like strelky and KV-1 to get to vet 2. Sorry i've never tried to used a vet conscript to capture weapons and plus i forgot what ability of vet 1 conscript. But i think it's kinda a good idea maybe you can influence it in the future.

I always thought vet1 conscripts could recrew weps ???. What did vet1 do then? I must have read the wrong info somewhere :P

Quote Also, even though conscripts are frail, they happen to take an extremely long time to suppress if they are sitting in green.

They dont get surpressed, they just drop dead  ;D

Last edited August 28, 2011 at 11:06 PM by Darkjolly

Conscripts with full rifles have a psychological impact too. With vet 3 defence of CS they can take a burst or too. Great line infantry. They are particularly effective at drawing fire as there is a greater chance that a conscript will be hit rather than a Sturmovie. For this reason the conscript is a great line infantry unit with the FTML upgrade. Your conscripts sacrifice themselves while your guards/sturmovie retreat without taking losses.

I wrote that post because in the 2 games that I played, my Conscripts became useless in late game; against vetted Grenadiers, Panzer Grenadiers and lately KCH, I prefer going to fight with RBS and their sexy PPSh41. :P

If you can't get Veterancy for Conscripts they're too weak for for fight in late game, even against Volksgrenadier.

But anyway I understand your point of view; I can win the resources war (MP in this situation) and going to deploy better infantries like Guards and RBS...right?  ;)

That's the idea. You'll now see Strelky becoming more popular than they were in 1.4 due to this change, as well as other factors.

Conscripts were going to be able to recrew weapons at vet1, but we couldn't figure out how to do it so they got a 0.9 received damage modifier instead I think.

Ha ha, the main idea is to win outright (and not to feed CPs to the enemy). However I totally agree with Yauz's post, If you look at it that way, Conscripts are STILL very useful. Just be aware that it only really applies when both sides are equal. In some situations if the enemy controls lets say 90% of the map, it doesn't matter if he/she losses 1 for 1 since the manpower rate will be significantly higher.

I think Yauz you haven't taken into account what if PE starts using armored cars or wehr uses ostwind. A loss is still going to be a loss.

That doesn't enter the equation because that is a specific infantry counter and has counters of its own in the game. You aren't taking into account AT guns etc. This is purely a main infantry comparison which is valid because both sides will always have them. Besides, you have to lose 32 conscripts for every AC to be at a loss, or 52 per Ostwind. Not to mention the fuel cost.

As long as you only lose 3 conscripts per gren you kill you'll still be equal in terms of CP experience.

Last edited August 28, 2011 at 11:05 AM by GodlikeDennis

still...i want vet back
just make it a real small bonus
like 2 extra health per man at vet 1
throw molotovs a bit further at vet 2
and a little bit more damage (1.3) at vet 3
something like that

I use conscripts like riflemen now :P. They cap fast and numerous. Strelky are now the backbone of my infantry. PPSH and DP together are fairly effective ;D. I'd still like vet though. Like Pauly3 descibed. Small bonus but still a bonus

1.3 damage is actually a pretty large bonus and better than Strelky get at vet3.

Conscripts won't be getting vet. The devs have made this very clear that it is by design that conscripts are not going to be effective lategame units. In response to this, we (balancers) added the scaling reinforce cost reduction so they at least keep their meatshield use and cheap side capper utility later on. Otherwise, they were simply too inefficient to keep around and you threw them away after 5 minutes.

They may not be great in combat anymore (unless you go Urban) but the lower reinforce cost is actually a huge buff in lategame. Some of you are not realising how incredibly cheap it is to reinforce losses.

I'm glad people are starting to use Strelky more, because that was the entire aim of the buff/nerfs.

Yeah 8 manpower is pure pawnage. Thats virtually 1 third the price of riflemen reinforce

Thats assuming you buy all the available upgrades :P

Paladin88 wrote:
Ha ha, the main idea is to win outright (and not to feed CPs to the enemy). However I totally agree with Yauz's post...
I think Yauz you haven't taken into account what if PE starts using armored cars or wehr uses ostwind. A loss is still going to be a loss.

...Or anyone uses indirect fire area of effect weapons.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
That doesn't enter the equation because that is a specific infantry counter and has counters of its own in the game. You aren't taking into account AT guns etc... As long as you only lose 3 conscripts per gren you kill you'll still be equal in terms of CP experience.

I agree GDL but you don't go far enough in your argument. After the early game Conscripts become support troops rather than infantry.

Offensively use them against support troops not infantry. coupled with "Break Suppression" or "Charge" they do a good job against mortars and ATGs, (and maybe with good micro, HMGs).

Defensively when using them to garrison buildings they are very resiliant; and coupled with "Hold Ground" or 8 rifles they hold their own. The 5 squad Strategic Reserve is very handy when your pop-cap limited is temporarily maxed out as well.

The inability to Vet is annoying. Experience to Conscripts still contributes to CPs; but I hate losing experience points that contribute to Vet. This is annoying when using CW faction as well.

CP experience and unit veterancy are separate functions. They have absolutely no correlation. CP experience is provided to both players based off percentages of the unit cost:

Build Multiplier 0.083
Kill Multiplier 0.055
Loss Multiplier 0.0275

So for example, a bunker costs 150MP to build:

Build Multiplier 0.083 x 150 = 12.45 (displays as 12xp)
Kill Multiplier 0.055 x 150 = 8.25 (displays as 8xp)
Loss Multiplier 0.0275 x 150 = 4.125 (displays as 4xp)

For the Wehr player, building the bunker provides ~12xp alone. When an Allied player kills it, they receive ~8xp and the Wehr player will also receive ~4xp for its loss. No matter the unit that kills it, they won't receive any unit veterancy because bunkers provide no xp when killed. The unit xp that destroyed units provides is separate completely from the CP xp which is a fixed value based on the above modifiers and its cost. Unit xp is based off a list of predefined values.

Your point on using them as support troops is solid. Generally, the flanking squads are the ones most at risk of taking heavy casualties. Having cheap reinforcement on these is very efficient.

yeah
that nerf was a huge sucess
i now feel bad building conscripts, cause they dont get vet anymore...

Now that I think about it, conscripts losing their commissar, conscripts getting no upgrades, conscripts losing vet is not bad. Strelky have been pretty much what I have been using as frontline infantry. Strelky were better in every way pretty much. But two things that I've been wondering about. In a fight, who wins? Riflemen or Strelky? In green cover, and at range? And why can't full rifle conscripts recrew?

Recrew has nothing to do with the ability to carry guns, you know? ;)

I think strelky might win  :P

Strelky have better firepower, Riflemen have better sustainability. Both have excellent upgrades. I believe Strelky would most likely win at long range and rifles at close. Green cover is the best for these squads.

Rifles are best used with flanking tactics. If you flank with Strelky one of the best combos are the DP-28 to draw fire and the PPSH-41 to clean up. I find strelky are easier to use with TH's and Snipers in the mix to handle pesky MG42s while AT-Guns or Mortars lay back and wait for that first armored engagement VS a Puma or Blob/Emplacement.

Strelky have nice AC penetration so anyone using a T1-T3 strat needs some good AC micro. DP-28s are better VS AC's than PPSH-41s. I think BARs might have more penetration than DPs but I don't use Corsix, you'll have to ask Dennis or Blackbishop.

DP-28s are much like the BARs upgrade which really improve RBS firepower as a whole. The BAR can dole suppression while the DP-28 has higher damage output. The PPSH-41s are very nice if long-range BAR style upgrades aren't your style and you prefer to get close and friendly.

Phosphor Grenades > MK2 Pineapple. But that's doctrinal.

Rifles can build OPs. They can also build the 4 basic field defenses with their doctrinal upgrade.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages and are quite nice mainline infantry.

Unlike conscripts.

i am sorry if i repeat myself but pls
bring conscript vet back
it can be small bonuses
but vet is so awesome and important
the reason why brits suck is that only 3 of their units get and provide vet...

Not gonna happen. The devs have stated they don't want conscripts to have vet.

Perhaps there may be conscript vet in the campaign. However, the Molotov is now good. It really burns out infantry in bunkers at the same rate as the incendiary grenade. No cheap tank kills.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Not gonna happen. The devs have stated they don't want conscripts to have vet.

No !!!!!! the world is collapsing around me, plz!!

shouldnt inexperienced troops become more experienced throughout a battle??

I think the name "Conscripts" says it best - they are fresh troups for the frontline, not meant to be veterans, although, I suggested a "rank promotion" for Conscripts earlier (vet3 and they would elevate to become Strelky), however, it wasn't considered to be realized.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
I think the name "Conscripts" says it best - they are fresh troups for the frontline, not meant to be veterans, although, I suggested a "rank promotion" for Conscripts earlier (vet3 and they would elevate to become Strelky), however, it wasn't considered to be realized.

Actually I think we considered it but it becomes too complicated in the longrun. Not sure if we will/can implement this in the future.

Conscripts will not scale up to be used later game unless you're using them as Yau described. That's final. No more vet.

No more disscusion :P

Yes, your Honor :P