Norwegian Bombing/Shooting

Just like to offer my condolences. Been following the incident since it happened, and it's just such a massive tragedy for such a peaceful and beautiful country. I haven't had the time to search for any Norwegian members on this forum, but was their anyone effected here? I've gamed with and played against whole teams of Norwegian's over years and have always enjoyed talking to them.

What that man did was completely ridiculous. I see no sense in killing your own people or any people, for that matter, to make an ideological or religious point. I'm reading his manifesto at the moment, and just can't wrap my head around it. 1500 pages with his own personal views mixed with Wikipedia entries. Quite bizarre.

Please use this thread to offer your sympathies, and for Norwegian members to let us know your alright.

I have been growing up my entire life knowing that I live in a peaceful country that this kind of stuff dont happen. And now this scheisse happens in Norway. Norways is like a better version of Sweden XD Its disgusting and a new kind of fear have been experianced :C

due to fact that media are spamming dozens of infos at the moment, can anyone tell me what exactly had happened? I'm a bit confused now.

On Friday, a bomb made from fertilizer and other chemical compounds exploded near government buildings in Oslo. Since it is holiday season, causalities were less than what could have been. According to sources 7 people were killed and 15 injured.

A few hours later one guy dressed as a police officer and armed with a semi-automatic rifle (Ruger Mini 14), side arm, and apparently grenades began a massacre on the island Utoya. It is a small youth camp for the Labor Party of Norway I believe. Overall 93 people were killed with 86 with them being on Utoya. Most of the victims on the island were between 15 and 16 years old.

I just glanced over some of the last few hundred pages of his manifesto, and he claims he did this because he's part of some resistance movement against the Muslim immigration to Europe. He is highly Conservative (which is why he targeted the youth of the Labor Party), and Christian which is weird because immediately after the attacks happened right wing media groups all over were saying it was another act of violence from Islamic extremists.

tigerclawstyle wrote:
On Friday, a bomb made from fertilizer and other chemical compounds exploded near government buildings in Oslo. Since it is holiday season, causalities were less than what could have been. According to sources 7 people were killed and 15 injured.

A few hours later one guy dressed as a police officer and armed with a semi-automatic rifle (Ruger Mini 14), side arm, and apparently grenades began a massacre on the island Utoya. It is a small youth camp for the Labor Party of Norway I believe. Overall 93 people were killed with 86 with them being on Utoya. Most of the victims on the island were between 15 and 16 years old.

I just glanced over some of the last few hundred pages of his manifesto, and he claims he did this because he's part of some resistance movement against the Muslim immigration to Europe. He is highly Conservative (which is why he targeted the youth of the Labor Party), and Christian which is weird because immediately after the attacks happened right wing media groups all over were saying it was another act of violence from Islamic extremists.

I don't see any reasons why he should do it... killing own people to make them fight... sounds like NKVD and USSR...

The guy dressed up as the police were the guy who planted the bombs ( At least media says so.)
He later went to the island as tigerclaw said dressed up as a police. But before the massacre he went covert ops big time.

He went to the island with the disguis as a police to inform the camp about the bomb  2 hours earlier. When he had the whole camp in front of himself listening he just started shooting :C

Damn murderer!

Yeah their is some confusion on whether or not he was alone on this. The people on the island suggest that their could have been 2, but understandably people were in shock and confused over the ordeal. His manifesto claims however that he worked completely alone not risking telling any people. Sommarkatze is correct to, when people were panicking he directed people to come to him and then opened fire.

Tomorrow, he is going to be appearing at a hearing, and apparently is going to give his reasons on doing what he did.

What I'm worried about is his book becoming mainstream, and people latching on to it, in particular neo-Nazi's and other hate groups, to fit their own agenda's. It is quite a detailed and alarming book to read.

on the german news they keep calling it an Attack done by Al-qaida...
news talk BS

It could be against forum rules to talk about this.

tigerclawstyle wrote:
What I'm worried about is his book becoming mainstream, and people latching on to it, in particular neo-Nazi's and other hate groups, to fit their own agenda's. It is quite a detailed and alarming book to read.

Since when neo-Nazi started hating Norwegians?
The only ones that should fear neo-Nazi today are muslims.

Most of his manifesto is copied from Theodore Kaczynski's insane ramblings. It's won't appeal to Nazi's because it condemns Nazi's quite a lot. The man was more akin to your average American Tea Partier in beliefs... difference is, Tea Partiers think they can change society through the ballot box, Anders thinks he can change society through mass-murder.

irik wrote:
It could be against forum rules to talk about this.

I personally don't think discussing current affairs is against rules.

I cant believe the max sentence he can get is only 21 years. It should be life imprisonment (or execution)

@Paciat, I didn't say neo-Nazi's hate Norwegians. I'm sure it differs from place to place but neo-Nazi's typically hate anything Liberal or anything pro multicultural for the most part. Also the reason I said that, is because hate/anarchists/terrorist groups will jump on anything like incidents like this and could consider the guy who did it to be a hero/martyr. The fact he posted his 1500 page book online beforehand, means people are going to read it despite what theirs views on these type of matters are.

@BurroDiablo, thanks for the assessment, if I decide to read more into it, I'll keep that in mind. I only really read the logs about his preparations, and some of his personal stuff that he typed down.

Before I posted I PM'ed a moderator, to lock the thread immediately if it gets to heated, and I'm sure BurroDiablo will watch it as well. It is a sensitive issue.

Only reason I created the thread was to see if anyone in the community or members of the Dev team were affected personally by the incident. We got alot of people from alot of different countries here. I had buddies on gaming teams over the years, some lost friends/family on Sept 11th and over the course of the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars.

Last edited July 25, 2011 at 2:43 AM by tigerclawstyle

Yeah, the shit hawks are circling the sky around this thread. I can't imagine it getting heated in here, unless somebody comes in trolling, but discussion is fine.

I feel very sorry for those who lost a friend, family or otherwise known a victim. I showed my respects, by lighting candles (not much but something) together with some friends in downtown Stockholm (Capital of Sweden for those that may not know), one of whom had a friend severely injured at Utöya, but survivied.

irik wrote:
It could be against forum rules to talk about this.

Off topic is off topic, pretty much only stuff supporting illegal activities would be banned from this section (such as spamming, pirating, stealing etc).

Paladin88 wrote:
I cant believe the max sentence he can get is only 21 years. It should be life imprisonment (or execution)

In Scandinavian in General (at least Sweden and Norway, I think Denmark at least also) have a very forgiving legal system ("Everyone deserves a second chance"). However we also have one of the lowest crime rates, especially in repeated crime (aka you got caught, convicted and served). Sweden does however got a life-sentence, in theory, murders get convicted for it, but is set free after 15~28 years.

Last edited July 25, 2011 at 4:12 AM by Rizz

I'm most worried about copycat killers trying to be "cool" like this guy. Copycats are very common after this sort of thing.

Rizz, I hope all the best for your friend's friend. Can't imagine the shock of enjoying a beautiful summers day with friends, to be brutally interrupted by someone who would do something like this.

Yeah copycats would be a major concern anywhere at this point. In his manifesto he spoke about Modern Warfare 2, and how it was a tactical simulation. He considered it to be training. For those of you who haven't played or heard about a certain level in the game, their is a part where you play an undercover CIA agent (formerly a Ranger) who's infiltrated a Russian terrorist group. In the level you have to go through a level based on an airport in Moscow, killing as many civilians as you can.

I'm not saying this inspired him to do this; it seems to me, that he's been planning this for along time, but the fact that media/government officials at the time of MW2 release were worried about such things happening and the fact he mentioned the game in his writing's suggests alot.

Definitely brings the real world and the things we consider to be entertainment into perspective.

GodlikeDennis wrote:Copycats are very common after this sort of thing.

When there is religion involved. That man was just a crazy man who couldnt get along with other people in the modern world.
How was the manifest called? "1500 pages of what I hate about this world and how much I hate everyone"? - That dosnt sound cool.

Quote
I'm not saying this inspired him to do this

Saing that he wouldnt come up with an idea of shoothing at civilians if it wasnt for a certain very popular game is just dumb. Would he try to kill those people in a Carmageddon or Bomberman way if there was no MW2?
The only question that shoud be asked is where from did he get 2 guns?

It has nothing to do with religion, just psychology/sociology. People often try to emulate other people's fame (infamy) by copying them. This occurs often in cases of serial killers, suicides, murders, killing sprees and other events.

I agree the MW2 excuse isn't accurate. For me it reminds me of the saying; Guns don't kill people, people kill people. It takes intent to kill all those people, not just doing what you see in a video game or other media. The game is not inherently causing you to go kill people. The way he perceived it did. His perception of it was all down to his subjective view indicating his mental imbalance.

Last edited July 25, 2011 at 7:11 AM by GodlikeDennis

After a bombing, the media and goverment find many excuses for that crime, the Al Quaeda, the neo-nazi, violent-shooting video games but the main problem is always hided, why he has the guns, why he has the material, how can he lay low on such a long time without being notice by anyone. And one more thing, why Europe abanddon mass excutions, your goverment let they struck fear to their own people, why dont let those psychoes taste the fear. I mean a psycho be excuted and die but what if before they being shoot, they saw 10 like him being shot? And what about 10 other psychoes who is gonna do it, when they saw 10 shithead like him being shot? I bet 9/10 of them will shit themselves and never ever try to be cool like him.

@up, Psychos are psychos, they don't think within reason, many of them (from what I've heard, not related to this specific case) also wants to die as the final outcome.

In rare cases, real psycho dont care about the dead like this one, but on most case they struggle themselves, they will keep wondering did they have to do this and then die? If we can pressure them to DO NOT do that, they will not. There are two point I just want to say, first, Eu goverments dont encourage terrorism (of coures we all dont) but they dont pressure to DO NOT encourage terrorism. If there is a fire, you have to quench it completely not just try to supressed and then... ignore it. And second, there are always a group, not just a psycho did this, he never do it alone. In every case, there are someone, encourage him, supply him in a very long time. You dont become a psycho in 1 day obviously.
PS: May who was dead, let them rest in peace. Everyone will die but everyone must have a equal chance to die peacefully (not include psychoes).

First of all my sympathise and condolences to all who lost family or friends in Norway.
As for this manifest of his, I've read specific parts (mostly about the Netherlands since that's where I live), some of the things he mentions can indeed be argued to be correct observations (I'm not saying the man is right, merely that he is just not some dumb idiot who just wrote something). Planning something like this for nine years shows intelligence (mind you intelligence and being a psychopath are not mutually exclusive). My main concern is the following, he claims to be a member of a pan European organisation working to remove all the Muslims from Europe (by civil war). Would this be true and were something like he did to be repeated (in another country), without being caught and with a successful attempt to blame it on some domestic Muslim group. Then I fear that the civil war they so hope for, can indeed become a reality.

I just can't believe this happen in Norway.

Muslims are blamed for everything these days. 50% of Americans don't know the difference between a Muslim and a Terrorist....

I am expecting more these reports to come.

Seeme is right. This is turning into a new kind of world war, Muslims against Christs..

Maybe in the US, but I don't expect more of this stuff here. These kind of right-wing fundies are few and far between in Europe...

@stavka88 - So you suggest we subjugate an entire cross section of society? This kind of thing causes more problems than it solves... look at Muslims, their alienation and subjugation in the west did nothing but make them more militant. The death penalty rarely has any effect, the US has some of the worst murder rates in the developed world.
Society will never change as long as it keeps going down the same old road, it creates the material conditions in which these problems exist, and no amount executions, harsh punishments, retributions or subjugations will change that.

lol, like I said, "I'm not saying this inspired him to do this." I just find it coincidental, that in a source of entertainment he considered it to be a training simulation, their was a level where you go around killing as many civilians as possible (just like he did on Utoya). The way I viewed the particular level, was just a way to continue the story and that's it. But I agree with GodlikeDennis, the way he perceived it, shows his mental imbalance.

In the manifesto he clearly states "I’ve still learned to love it though and especially the multiplayer part is amazing," he adds. "You can more or less completely simulate actual operations."

http://www.pcworld.com/article/236459/did_oslo_terrorist_use_modern_warfare_2_as_training_sim.html

Now most people don't go playing FPS games and afterwards think "I'm special forces now." After playing years and years of COH, doesn't qualify us to try and command an army of some kind. That's all I'm trying to imply. Difference between entertainment and reality.

Like the article says, it's only like 1% of his ramblings. 99% of it was sheer hatred and murderous intent. Back on the topic on hand, I'm glad to see that the number of confirmed casualties has dropped considerably to 76. Also its smart the authorities didn't give him the spotlight and make his hearing public. I imagine the investigation into him and his "organization" will be extensive. He's now claiming their are two more "cells."

Can any of you Northern European guys give me a run down on how the people their view the Muslim immigration issue? I have absolutely nothing against Muslims, just curious to hear about their presence in those countries.

i have to say that some of bravery shown by some of the kids is astonishing.

on he news there was the tale of one boy(can't remember the name sorry) who played dead.

45 minutes after he started the killer shot him to check and yet he still stopped himself from moving or crying out and thn lay there for another 2 hours with a bullet in his shoulder. he was eventually found and is recovering now.

Events such as these really display the human determination for life and earn the people involved a lot of respect from me.  :'(

tigerclawstyle wrote:
Can any of you Northern European guys give me a run down on how the people their view the Muslim immigration issue? I have absolutely nothing against Muslims, just curious to hear about their presence in those countries.

Sweden has one of the highest amount of immigration per capita in the western world. I'm looking at some statistics right now, both 2007 and 2009 we had over 100'000 new immigrants in Sweden, which is slightly above 1% of our current population. With a majority of them coming from Mid-East. I don't have statistics to other years.

Little quote from Wikipedia (which is correct, I remember this being on the news a few years ago)

Quote
The Swedish city of Södertälje has alone taken in more Iraqi refugees than the United States and Canada combined.

Södertälje is Sweden's 16th biggest city with a population of 65000~80000 (depending if you look on the Swedish  or English Wiki page, no idea which one to trust most).

Even with these high immigration numbers, Sweden's far-right party (which isn't that far-right comparing to many other European counties) has only been able to gain very small support. Granted it made itself into the the parliament in the 2010 election, with 5.70% of the votes.


I can't say how it is in Norway/Denmark, be cause I have no idea. I do remember a far-right party being moderately popular in one of them.

Last edited July 25, 2011 at 6:01 PM by Rizz

Thanks Rizz. Seems like people from the Middle East are drawn to the Scandinavian countries because of the high living standards, and relatively safe surroundings (no countries where governments that are less stable and aggressive). That stat about the Iraq refugees is eye opening. Northern Europe would be appealing me to if I was born in a third world country.

If anyone needs an update on what happened today, the man who did these sadistic attacks had a non-public hearing. Apparently their will be a big investigation to see if their really are other cells like he claims. He's being isolated in prison, and only person he can see is his lawyer. Maybe the trial starts a year from now  :-X

A Lawyer would fight for him?

That's called Constitution and civil law Seeme, even a guy like Breivink has a right to it (and deserves it).

Ehh, I know. Just saying.

After spending a few days trolling on the CNN (USA news) website, I have discovered that indeed, most comments still blame this on some fabled Islamic invasion.

However, it's depressing that this event has happened in one of the most peaceful places in the entire world. For millennia, Norway has shared a history with my own country and it is terrible to think that these atrocities are being linked with cells in my capital.

I hope no more evil comes of this disaster.

On the other hand, I do wholly believe that Breivink has the right to a lawyer and a judicial defence. I am happy that the Norwegian police did not shoot on sight and performed their job as they should.

Yeah no kidding WartyX. In other nations, theirs a good chance he would've been double tapped multiple times from all sorts of angles. His ploy with the bomb being a distraction worked in his favor though. The police didn't get to the island until an hour after it started. Damn shame.

Hope he gets life with solitary confinement. No visitors, no letters. One hour a month outside should do.

Just FYI, a suspected bomb currently in Oslo (capital of Norway) Central station.

Great, now these A.C.L. arseholes are using this terrible tragedy against us:
http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.php?show=news&news_id=807567
It doesn't surprise me of course, but they are nonetheless really pissing me off! And of course, we can't do anything about that, because that would just make things worse... >:(

Rizz, any news on that suspected bomb?

Pariah, happens anytime something like this goes down. Politicians and people who don't support violence in video games always jump on the bandwagon. Happens before games are released like MW2 (like we discussed earlier in the thread, the Russian level) and Medal of Honor most recently. Then when something like this happens, and they find out the person happens to play violent video games, they increase their ramblings on the matter.

Off topic, but did Medal of Honor get the backlash in Australia as much as it did in the US, UK and Canada?

I know this thing is commonplace in media, but this is the government i'm talking about, here! Much more important. ;)

I'm not terribly familiar with the Medal Of Honor controversies, so i dunno.

Well the game is semi based on real events that happened early on in the Invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. In the single player you fight as tier one operators against the Taliban. The thing that got people pissed was in multiplayer you play as either the US, or Taliban. People didn't like how their kids or whoever would play as the enemy US/NATO forces were currently fighting. In America, the game wasn't allowed to be sold on US military bases (game stilled sold 5 million copies though). Also got mentioned by politicians in Canada and UK. Just curious because the Aussies have been their to from the beginning.

I'm not sure. I recall seeing something on American telly about it (online), but i don't watch t.v., nor do i read the news. I would assume the Aussies would feel the same way.

The suspected bomb turned out to be a false alarm.

Thank god. About Islamic extremists, most of them blow up people in India and Afghanistan.