EF short stories

I like when you read a short battle event story. Like if you browse through the newspaper and you see an interesting story.

Requirements: Must be on EF; real event


The Tigers Roar, Malinava, Latvia, July 22nd 1944

1st Lieutenant Otto Carius commanding 2nd Company of the 502nd heavy tank Battalion, with eight Tigers, advanced towards the village of Malinava (a northern suburb of Dunaburg) , to halt the Russian advance. Following a reconnaissance Lieutenant Otto Carius explained his plan to take the village. He decided to attack using only two tanks because there was only one narrow road leading to the village. Six Tigers therefore remained in the reserve while Lt Carius and Lt. Albert Kerschers (one of the most decorated commanders of sPzAbt 502) tanks moved towards the village. Speed was the essence and afterwards, Otto Carius recalls that the entire battle did not last more than 20 minutes. in this short time, Carius and Kerscher knocked out 17 of the new JS-2 Stalin and 5 T-34 tanks. Following this he deployed 6 of his tanks in an ambush against the remainder of the Soviet tank battalion advancing toward him, unaware of their lead companies demise. Surprise was complete and a further 28 tanks were destroyed along with their supporting trucks and vehicles. Carius and Kerscher destroyed a whole batallion,the soviet tank-brigade Josef Stalin, an elite unit of the red army.

Last edited July 21, 2011 at 2:01 PM by Killar

One note i would add: Carius and Kerscher destroyed the soviet tank-brigade Josef Stalin, an elite unit of the red army.

Edit: I will add an story later.
At the moment i havent enough time for a "good story" ;)

Last edited July 21, 2011 at 2:12 PM by Lord Rommel

added  ;)

Rommel you forgot to tell a short story  :P

give us moar.  ;D

Kerschers Defence of Neuhauser Forest

Oberfeldwebel Albert Kerscher, commander of 2nd company 511 Heavy Tank Battalion aided by a Panzer IV, two Hetzers, a Kingtiger and a Pak gun, successfully defended against concerted Soviet air and armoured attacks, his action buying valuable time for the evacuation of German wounded from Pilau and scoring his 100th victory in the process.

Several years ago, i read about a Russian heavy tank that the Germans simply could not destroy. Even a Flak 36 shot at point-blank range couldn't penetrate. :o Forget what book that was in. I'd love to find it again... :(

pariah wrote:
Even a Flak 36 shot at point-blank range couldn't penetrate.

sounds like walt disney.


Defence of the Reichstag, Berlin, 1st May 1945

On the 30th April, Unterscharführer Georg Diers and his crew of tank 314, were ordered to take up a defensive position at the Reichstag buildings. This was one of only two remaining King Tigers belonging to Heavy SS Tank Battalion 503 in Berlin. By that evening they had knocked out about 30 T-34s, and the following day led a successful counterattack against the Kroll Opera House directly opposite the Reichstag. Their efforts though, merely postponed the inevitable and by the end of the day the order was given to abandon the position and prepare to break out of Berlin.

Killar wrote:

pariah wrote:
Even a Flak 36 shot at point-blank range couldn't penetrate.

sounds like walt disney.

I know, right? I'll see if i can find that book again, but i borrowed so many on W.W.2 and Germany it'll be hard to track down...

Hope that  Unterscharführer Georg Diers and his crew escaped.

Tankbuster wrote:
Hope that  Unterscharführer Georg Diers and his crew escaped.

They had to blow their tiger up. Diers, his gunner and driver were released from soviet prison in 1949. Loader and radio operator were killed.

Note: Bormann tried to escape on their tiger but was killed by infantry and arty shells while sitting on the back of the tank.

pariah wrote:
Several years ago, i read about a Russian heavy tank that the Germans simply could not destroy. Even a Flak 36 shot at point-blank range couldn't penetrate. :o Forget what book that was in. I'd love to find it again... :(

I heared a similar story of KV-1 that couldnt be destroyed by 15cm SiG SPG gun direct fire.

Heres my story:
A grandfather of my friend served in Wehrmacht was eating a sandwitch in one hand and passing ammo to the HMG with the other while the gunner was shooting at Soviets. That is how he saw war. Even getting something to eat wasnt easy then.

Did the HMG gunner later eat the sandwich in one hand and fire with the orther like him? It's will be more cool :)

not exactly eastern front, but this story of overkill is kinda funny

QuoteOn the next morning, 16 October, the 1st and 30th Infantry Divisions finally linked up east of Aachen, thus completing the encirclement of the city. The Germans responded with heavy counterattacks, prompting 1st Infantry Division to suspend offensive operations within the city as a precautionary measure.  The 2/26 took advantage of the pause to secure its position.  On the battalion's left flank, the 1106th Engineer pivoted its right wing forward from its position south of the city to conform with the 2/26.  The battalion also decided to take measures against a supposed pillbox spotted at the far end of Hindenburg Strasse.  Daniel brought up his attached 155mm self-propelled gun for the purpose.  To protect it, he ordered tank destroyers to fire into the intervening cross streets.  To protect the tank destroyers, infantry secured the buildings within panzerfaust range of the armor.  Once in place, the 155 fired an armor piercing round which utterly demolished the "pillbox," which later proved to be a camouflaged tank

and overkill against a single sniper

QuoteDuring this period, the 2/26 found itself taking fire from the rear, despite all its precautions to assure that no Germans were bypassed.  After a careful search, the Americans discovered that the fire was coming from a church steeple that had been reinforced with concrete, making it a fortified observation post.  This position proved to be impervious to both small arms and 75mm tank destroyer fire, whereupon Daniel again called upon his 155mm artillery piece.  One shot from the 155 brought the entire structure crashing to the ground.[38] This use of a 155mm gun as an anti-sniper weapon is perhaps the epitome of "Knock 'em all down.

Last edited July 22, 2011 at 4:28 PM by robotnik

Those are nice stories guys :).

Repelling the russian advance

In the early morning of 8 February 1945 comes the command of Lieutenant Colonel Paul Albert Kausch, commander of SS-Panzer-Division 11 to SS lieutenant Fritz Kauerauf, first officer of the company Company heavy SS-Panzer-Abteilung 503, to seal off a Russian advance on the Ihna Bridge, south of Jacob Hagen by Ziegenhagen and small silver with a Tiger II and three assault guns under SS Sergeant Phillip Wild to compete.

When encountering a powerful enemy on the ridge east of the group Ihna, the addition of two more tigers II, SS Lieutenant Kaes, chief takes second Company of the heavy SS-Panzer-Abteilung 503, and about 10 other assault guns of the SS-Panzer-Division 11, and a company of paratroopers. Around midday, the attack, out of the movement, direction Ziegenhagen, which also joined the assault guns of the SS-11 assault gun department, SS Colonel Schulz-growing area. After fighting a low-Pak position on the outskirts of Ziegenhagen, is the thrust of the paratroopers, on both sides of the road, over the little bridge Ihna Ziegenhagen. Heavy house to house fighting followed, while it comes to shooting down of a further, third overall, Josef Stalin II tank. In the evening the group was at the southern exit of small silver Reetz direction with 3 TIGER II and only seven Paratroopers left. Late at night, the fuel is supplied by 3 barrels (1 barrel = 200 liters of petrol per Tiger)


On the morning of 9 February 1945 issued an order to the three tigers in small silver, for taking the remaining districts in the east. The tank of Lieutenant Kaes gets on fire (by russian infantry close attacks) and blocked the road for the assault guns. The lead tank of SS Untersturmführer Kauerauf was now seperated from its battle group and shot down on the outskirts of small silver. Kauerauf, despite his severe wounds, shot 2 russians and destroyed and mg dugout. He hide and was later rescued by paratroopers. Grenadiers of the 11th SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division had occupied the so-obtained space that made it a week later possible to relieve Arnswalde. Even some of the remaining tigers of the heavy SS-Panzer-Abteilung 503 still on the road to defend Gdansk could be moved to danzik by rail to defend the town.

In small silver the two tigers were killed by melee , the third Tiger II, who was unable to move after total failure of the electrical system has been made unusable by the crew. In the southern part of Arnswalde several attacks were repelled!

Last edited July 30, 2011 at 12:01 PM by Killar

1 versus 43

On 18 August 1941, an alone KV-1 (the number 864, the commander was lt.Kolobanov) was dug in and camouflaged near Krasnogvardeysk town (Leningrad area). The tank had an order to defend the road from Kinigsep. Four more KVs were ordered to defense two other roads. All tanks got double ammoloads, 2/3 of rounds were armor piercing. An offensive of 8th German panzer division was expected. Kolobanaov's KV had great hidden position in the woods on the hill, the crossroad located down there between swamps.
In the next day German motorcycle recon troops, the halftrack and one light track passed by road. Five minutes later the expected big tank column appeared and filled the road. The 1st Soviet round flamed the head tank, after two more shots the 2nd tank was flamed too. Then Kolobanov opened fire on column's tail and flamed the last tank: the Germans were locked. They even couldn't note Soviet tank and opened no-target-fire. Tried to run, some tanks were immobilized in the swamp. The chaos established on the road. Soviet tankers killed 22 German tanks during 30 minutes. Then the KV was spotted by the Germans and they opened aimed fire. In spite of impossibility of German tank guns to penetrate thick KV's armor, knocking rounds made terrible working conditions for Soviet crew. One of German rounds struck the turret ring and the KV was forced to leave its trench and maneuver by whole hull for aim a target. Then the Soviets noted two German towed guns appeared on the crossroad. The first shell disabled one gun, but another gun managed to do one shot and damaged KV's periscope (the loader Kiselkov replaced it nevetherless the enemy fire). Than that gun was destroyed too. Also ammo was almost out, and Kolobanov got congratulations via the radio and an order to go back. Already three another KVs were on the way to the battlefield.

There were destroyed 43 German tanks, 19 guns, 11 halftracks. Kolobanov's tank got 135 hits, but no one penetration.
Kolobanov was awarded with the Order of Lenin, Usov (gunner) with the Order of the Red Banner.

Last edited July 31, 2011 at 12:02 PM by Killar

My Story is not about the Eastern Front. It is about my Father-in-Law Captain Ed Slonaker. Eddie Served in a two-man Forward Observer squad In the 30/231 artillery battalion. The 30th was a green division that landed on Omaha Beach D+5 to D+20. During his stay in England, Eddie found the English girls to be very friendly. He was less complimentary of the Officers of the Royal Navy. During the channel crossing he messed with the RN officers, Wine,fresh meat and fruit etc. He told me that when he asked why his men received powdered eggs, hardtack and coffee; he was told to "shut his yap". He messed with his men thereafter!
The 30th was deployed to Mortain, a "quiet sector", in July to support Operation Cobra. On August 7, 1944 the Germans mounted Operation Luttich. Four Panzer divisions isolated the 30th for a period of six nights. The 30th, with only "one radio with dying batteries" broke up the attack. The artillery components of the "Lost Battalion" were given much of the credit for this.
During the race through Belgium Eddie fondly recalled liberating fresh eggs from a farmhouse. He also spoke enthusiastically of the friendliness of the Belgian girls. He crossed into Germany and was engaged in operations around Aachen. He hated the rain. The 30th went into R&R before being Rushed to the St Vith sector of The Bulge. He crossed the Rhine at Remagen. He was one of the first Americans to visit Bergen-Belson. He also passed through Malmedy ~ 12/19/1944. He was not forthcoming about either incident.
Eddie's saddest day of the war was during the Aachen operations. He and his radio operator, Corporal "Brownie" were operating a Forward Observation Post when hit by German counter-battery fire. They dove into adjacent foxholes. Brownie was disemboweled by a direct mortar hit on his foxhole. As Company Commander Ed was responsible for writing home to the families of the slain. He said it was the worst part of the job. Over 65,000 replacements were sent to the 30th Division during the eleven months it was engaged in operations. Ed received the Bronze Star for Valor.

a story of an M10 vs a Ferdinand and some tigers

Quote3d Plat Co B was interdicting the Cisterna Road. The destroyers of Sgts. H. J. Ritchie and J. C. Christian were behind buildings in Isola Bella. A Ferdinand (88-mm assault gun) and a PzKw VI tank attacked directly toward Sgt. Ritchie's building and reached a point on the road about 300 yards from him. They were being supported by the fire of three PzKw VI tanks 250 yards up the road behind them and another Ferdinand and a "VI" in a farmyard about 250 yards east of the position. As Cpl. J. P. Goldsmith, the gunner, tells the tale:

"Sgt. Ritchie ordered me to pull into open view around the corner of the building, and from this exposed position directed three hits onto the most exposed tank, it being about 550 yards up the road at that time, and knocked it out. We drew heavy AP and HE fire from the other tanks, shells barely missing our destroyer by a few feet and fragments hitting us. We were exposed for about five minutes. Then Sgt. Ritchie ducked his head and shoulders below the turret and pulled back behind the house. When enemy fire had ceased, Sgt. Ritchie had me pull out again, and from the same exposed position directed two rounds of AP shell that hit and bounced off the front armor of the Ferdinand 250 yards east of us. We again received intensive fire from the enemy tanks and shells were landing so close that fragments were coming through the open turret, one slightly wounding our gunner in the head when it hit our tank and damaging the counter-balance and .50-cal. machine gun mounted on the edge of the turret. We were again exposed to enemy fire for about five minutes. He ducked into the tank and we pulled behind the house again. We continued to fight throughout the day with our damaged gun." Sgt. Ritchie continues the story: "The second time we fired, Sgt. Christian radioed me to cover him and pulled out behind the house that he was using for defilade and directed the fire or five rounds, scoring two hits on the PzKw VI and two hits on the Ferdinand that were pinning us down. He definitely knocked them out: only two men got out of those two armored vehicles. Direct fire from the supporting enemy tanks was so intense that I saw two rounds hit the house around which he had moved to fire and another hit the corner of the building directly above his tank. If any of these shells had scored a hit, it would probably have put destroyer and crew out of action.

"A few minutes later Sgt. Christian again pulled out and fired on another supporting VI on the main road, scoring a direct hit and neutralizing that tank. He was exposed to intense enemy direct fire for about 15 minutes. By his coordinating the fire of our two weapons, diverting the attention of the enemy, that attack on our position was stopped. Prior to this action the sight extension bar on Sgt. Christian's gun had been bent, and the only means he had to adjust fire was to stand completely exposed above the turret with field glasses. Two teeth were broken off the turret worm gear, and throughout the engagement the gun was traversed by jolting against the gun housing and jerking the traverse handle until the gears would mesh."

Wow! sounds like heavy duty micro to me. Do you have any info on which German unit was equipped with Ferdinands on the Italian Front? Maybe Herman Goering Pzr Division? I was unaware of any being deployed in the West.

^ It says in the article that s.Pz.Abt. 653 had them

here is the full article, tells on the use of M10's at anzio

http://www.lonesentry.com/brassingoff/index.html

"Pavlov's House" The name of a fortified apartment during the battle of Stalingrad named after Sergeant Yakov Pavlov, who commanded the platoon that seized the building and defended it during the battle.

The house was a four-story building in the center of Stalingrad, built parallel to the embankment of the river Volga and overseeing the "9th January Square", a large square named for Bloody Sunday. In September 1942, the house was attacked by German soldiers, and a platoon of the Soviet 13th Guards Rifle Division was ordered to seize and defend it. The platoon was led by Junior Sgt. Yakov Pavlov, a low-level noncommissioned officer serving as acting platoon commander since the unit's lieutenant and senior sergeants had all been wounded or killed. The attack on the building was successful, although the fighting was brutal, with only four men in the 30-man platoon surviving the assault.

The strategic benefit of the house was its position on a cross-street giving the defenders a 1 km line of sight to the north, south and west. After several days, reinforcements and resupply arrived for Pavlov's men, bringing the unit up to a 25-man understrength platoon and equipping the defenders with machine guns, anti-tank rifles, and mortars. In keeping with Stalin's Order No. 227 - "not one step back", Sgt. Pavlov was ordered to fortify the building and defend it to the last bullet and the last man. Taking this advice to heart, Pavlov ordered the building to be surrounded with four layers of barbed wire and minefields, and set up machine-gun posts in every available window facing the square. In the early stages of the defense, Pavlov discovered that a PTRS-41 anti-tank rifle he had mounted on the roof was particularly effective when used to ambush unsuspecting German tanks; once the tanks had approached to within 25 meters of the building, their thin turret-roof armor became exposed to AT rifle fire from above, but they were unable to elevate their weapons enough to retaliate. Pavlov had reportedly destroyed nearly a dozen tanks personally using this tactic.

For better internal communication, they breached the walls in the basement and upper floors, and dug a communications trench to Soviet positions outside. Supplies were brought in via the trench or by boats crossing the river, defying German air raids and shelling. Nevertheless, food and especially water was in short supply. Lacking beds, the soldiers tried to sleep on insulation wool torn off pipes, yet usually the Germans kept shooting at the house with deafening machine-gun fire day and night.

The Germans attacked the building several times a day. Each time German infantry or tanks tried to cross the square and to close in on the house, Pavlov's men laid down a withering barrage of machine gun and AT rifle fire from the basement, the windows and from the roof top, devastating the German attackers and forcing them to retreat. By mid-November, Pavlov's men reportedly had to use lulls in the fighting to run out and kick over the heaped piles of German corpses so they could not be used as cover for the next round of attackers.

Eventually the defenders, as well as the Soviet civilians who kept living in the basement all that time, held out during intensive fighting from 23 September until 25 November 1942, when they were relieved by the counter-attacking Soviet forces.

Sorry it wasn't so short, In addition the House still stands to this day with a War Memorial on the side built from bricks from the battle of Stalingrad, With the  following inscription: "In this building were united heroic feats of warfare and labor. We will defend / rebuild you, dear Stalingrad!"

Link to wikipedia where I saw this page, Also shows the House during WW2 and how it looks today with the Memorial on the side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlov%27s_house

cool story bro ;)
naw, these stories are super cool, keep it up!

Nice one! If i remember right this map is playable in the RO2 ? : D

I dont have any story sadly. Well, small ones and noway I can put them out like an article or something ;/

Nice story Mass Killer DL. Whats a lull ???.

And its one of EF's playable maps ;D

there was was that one Finnish sniper the white death, he has 505 confirmed kills, not much more i can add, sorry. my writing field is for creative story's not reciting  facts.

Is there at least an article on it ???. Sounds interesting enough :P

He is talking about the White Death; Simo Häyhä. He has on record 505 confirmed sniper kills and over 200 more Suomi KP 31 (Finnish SMG) making him the top Sniper Ace of all time.

neosdark wrote:
He is talking about the White Death; Simo Häyhä. He has on record 505 confirmed sniper kills and over 200 more Suomi KP 31 (Finnish SMG) making him the top Sniper Ace of all time.

thats him!, embodied sisu of finns ;D this song helps explain the reason i placed sisu of finns

Indeed, White Death by Sabaton is a great song. I was just listening to it this morning

a somewhat funny story

"During the siege of Sevastopol the Maxim Gorky battery (305mm guns) was used against tanks, both indirect and direct.

As a last resort battery opened fire with open sights, assuming unusual role of the frontline artillery. One of the defenders, D. Piskunov remembered later: "With German tanks shelling the command center from the distance just 300 meters situation became inconvenient enough. But then earth trembled and we heard enormous explosion. I climbed out from the trench and couldn't see a German tank, which stood in front of us just moments before, Now nothing was there. Only earth and unrecognizable debris were still falling down. Soon we were told that Alexander's battery opened fire". "

poor tank never stood a chance

LOL thats bigger than a Sipgot round ;D

Wow, a vaporized tank. What a strange world we live in.

Can I ask what model the tank in question was? Panzer IV? Panther?

Probably Panzer III or Panzer IV, Panthers weren't around at that point in the war and most, if not all, of the German tanks at Sevastopol were Panzer IIIs IIRC

I got an old uncle who died like.. 2-3 years ago? He was a volunteer in the panzercorps on the easternfront. Sadly I never had to chance to interview him so all the fact that I got about his ¨adventure¨ are from my grandfather and my dad. To put something into the thread its a short story my dad told me and that was,

That he was the commander of a tank ( probaly an Panzer IV cuz he only got training in that and panzer III) and they were running out of fuel. So they went over to the russians and filled it up their like nothing bad had ever happend XD Its nice to know that sometimes during wars people just ignore orders and let such thing happens. Like the fotball christmas thingy in WW1 !

Sommarkatze wrote:
That he was the commander of a tank ( probaly an Panzer IV cuz he only got training in that and panzer III) and they were running out of fuel. So they went over to the russians and filled it up their like nothing bad had ever happend XD Its nice to know that sometimes during wars people just ignore orders and let such thing happens. Like the fotball christmas thingy in WW1 !

Thats kinda cool :P. Did he like speak Russian ???. How did he get away with it? ;D

Hmm, I dont remember. I know that he was very good in languages. Spoked swedish ( ofc) german, english and french fluent if I remember correct. So I wouldnt be suprised if he spoked a little russian too.
Sadly I dont know how he made it XD Only know that he once filled up at the russians fuel depot. Good looks? XD

Sommarkatze wrote:
I got an old uncle who died like.. 2-3 years ago? He was a volunteer in the panzercorps on the easternfront. Sadly I never had to chance to interview him so all the fact that I got about his ¨adventure¨ are from my grandfather and my dad. To put something into the thread its a short story my dad told me and that was,

That he was the commander of a tank ( probaly an Panzer IV cuz he only got training in that and panzer III) and they were running out of fuel. So they went over to the russians and filled it up their like nothing bad had ever happend XD Its nice to know that sometimes during wars people just ignore orders and let such thing happens. Like the fotball christmas thingy in WW1 !

A panzer IV using soviet fuel? I wonder how that works, since the soviets used diesel fuel while the Germans used gasoline

War transcends all boundaries, including those of physics and Chemistry.

Perhaps captured fuel? Make sense. If they use Diesel they could give it to the germans anyway :P

My grandpa was in New Guinea during WW2, now I know that this isn't Eastern Front, but this is the only story i know first hand..

He and his buddy were scouting ahead of their unit, when suddenly they hear a column of Jap tanks and infantry approaching. They dive into a ditch beside the road and attempt not to make any sound or movement.. The column passes by them unaware of their presence. a Japanese soldier finishes his cigarette and right as he walks by he flicks the cigarette right on my grandpas shoulder..

That's all he told me, I'm not sure if he kept it somewhere but its too late to ask him now :'(

He passed away on the night of December 7th-8th, 2003

Coincidence?

Last edited April 16, 2012 at 1:52 AM by Fisher321

Sounds like an interesting story :D. Did his shoulder catch on fire???

^^ respect.

i wish i had a chance to talk to my relatives that fought in the world wars. i imagine they would have many stories to tell.

Stealth If you want to collect war stories or family stories it is helpful to learn how to "prime the pump" I had to buy a new PC yesterday. THe salesman and I were talking about the .5 Billion Dollar lottery. I told him the only lottery I ever won was the draft. I drew #5. He drew #4. I was 4f. He went to nam with the air cavalry as a door gunner in a Huey. Said He was red/green color blind and could pick out Camo real easy. One  mission he was told to drop everything and return to the Carrier. THey were told they would be carrying people. 100 helicopters went over the side. The hangar deck was 7 football fields long. -Imagine how many swabbies had to fill the parking meters when the admiral decided to play golf. 

So much for a visit to Walmarts. Learn to prime the pump.

wow, thats an amazing story man, and thanks for the tip.

Cat wrote:
Sounds like an interesting story :D. Did his shoulder catch on fire???

Haha don't think so..  but i was the only one he would tell stories to, he never liked talking about it to anyone.

Many of veterans do and I totally understand them. Its like talking about ex girlfriends or bad/sad memorys in general.
Thats why I try not to talk about such stuff when with relatives. Sadly my grandpa know Iam into that stuff so he often wander into such subjects where I try to only ask about nice and happy memories.
Today I actually talked with my grandpa and I found out that he knowed and played with the kids of the boss of heinkel! :D

thats cool man!
                                                               
as a note, is fisher's sig getting bigger? o.0

Veterans typically do not like to relate back to war memories primarily because of the onset of PTSD, also known as Shell Shock or Soldier's Heart by former names before it actually became a diagnosed disease.

War leaves scars that pictures and movies can not leave. Seeing things live like that first hand messes with your head. I saw the 9/11 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center and the towers collapse and I can hardly look at footage or pictures of the event when the day comes around on a yearly basis. Granted I was very young but it's still hard to look at it.

I live close to a couple of veterans of the Vietnam and Gulf War conflict. We rarely bring the subject up of war, but if we do, it's not about content details or what happened, more of general things as in what position he was, where he was etc.

Yeah, I once met a WW2 veteran (at the US Marines Museum, free BTW; very, very nice there :D). Wasn't really sure what to ask considering how he didn't exactly find shooting Japs to be a pleasant experience  :-X. I just asked what he did and he said he was a rifleman and his company but I dont remember ATM which number  :P