Soviet Balance Issues

There are three main balance concerns of mine regarding the Soviets.

Firstly, the tanks.  There can be no doubt that Russians have powerful tanks, but the IS-3 shouldn't really be included.  Historically, it came too early to have seen action against the Germans, and there were no official reports of it having seen any combat, although a regiment of them may have been deployed against the Japanese. 

The powerful tanks are available far too early, and it doesn't take long before you can have access to a KV tank or SU-152, thereby minimizing chance of a successful rush.  This is usually made easier for the Russian when the tanks are called in using a Power, so they don't need to save up any Fuel.  Getting attacked by several KV-2's can be slightly troublesome, particularly in well under 10 minutes.

Russian powers should cost - Artillery Spotters is free once the upgrade is purchased.  IL-2 Sturmoviks are highly overpowered for cost - a Henschel is 200 Munitions as well, and yet it only targets tanks, whereas the Sturmoviks hit everything and have the capability to decimate an armoured column, along with infantry. 

Although these may seem like a lot of issues, these are the ones that in my oppinion make versing the Russians annoying - not because of their power, but because of how cheap or easily they can access them. 

All these issues were discusse already and some will be changed in the next patch.

Do you play against comp or human player. Beware of the imbalance of a comp stomp, because the AI wont play smarter, it will spam units because of higher mp income

Welcome to the Eastern Front Community.
I suspect you are new to the mod. It is very different than vCoH. The learning curve is very steep and has to be repeated everytime there is an update. The DevTeam's design philosophy is peculiar and takes getting used to. The Soviet Faction is as different from other CoH factions as Communism is from Capitalism. Give it time. It will probably grow on you. Remember it is a WIP. again welcome aboard.

Hi Otti 213,
Thanks for the welcome.  I'm very fond of Eastern Front, I've been playing it for a while now, and can't imagine going back.  I was merely stating some aspects which I considered unbalanced.  This was all my oppinion, I'm not saying those issues raised were facts (with the exception of the IS-3), merely my take on the matter.

Fallschirmjager101 the IS-3 is added to enhance the gameplay just like the M-26 Pershing even though they played little to no part in the war. Guess you will have to live with it just like me and all other historical accuracy sticklers.

About IS-3: devs ate their tails.  ::) So many posts saying there will be historical accuracy in EF and so on, and we end up with IS-3.

cephalos wrote:
About IS-3: devs ate their tails.  ::) So many posts saying there will be historical accuracy in EF and so on, and we end up with IS-3.

Ouroboros?

cephalos wrote:
About IS-3: devs ate their tails.  ::) So many posts saying there will be historical accuracy in EF and so on, and we end up with IS-3.

Historic accuracy? Of course we have that at some extent. Remember that CoH is not made to be historically accurate, neither EF does.

Mad wrote:

cephalos wrote:
About IS-3: devs ate their tails.  ::) So many posts saying there will be historical accuracy in EF and so on, and we end up with IS-3.

Ouroboros?

lol ;D... but we aren't evil :P.

The inclusion of IS-3s/M-26 Pershings would be appropriate in the off topic section. Conscripts destroying King tigers would be a balance issue.

please KVs suck if you ask me they cost alot and 75mm guns seems to penetrate KV1. No way you can get attack by 5 in ten minutes. You realize after every tank you build you are getting less resources? If there is any balance issue is that Soviets aren't strong enough late game to stand up to Germans. I play online almost every night and its easier to win as Germans than it is Soviets. I can clear map as Soviets easy in the beginning if I space correctly but if I dont camp on majority of fuel I will never beat a semi-smart player on 1000 point VP and annihilate because I have high upkeep on tanks and I can't build lvl 2 and 3 tanks instantly. Shrek Infantry also eat up Soviet armor. Il-2 costs less because Soviets get less munitions.

vonklaus wrote:
please KVs suck if you ask me

Yepp KV sucks

vonklaus wrote:
If there is any balance issue is that Soviets aren't strong enough late game to stand up to Germans.

Germans getting stronger in late game. Buts its normal. Ami have same fate in vcoh. Russians can build multible IS2´s and these tanks are better than a panther

vonklaus wrote:
I can clear map as Soviets easy in the beginning if I space correctly but if I dont camp on majority of fuel I will never beat a semi-smart player on 1000 point VP and annihilate because I have high upkeep on tanks and I can't build lvl 2 and 3 tanks instantly.

1000VP´s are too many VP´s. Game lasts too long. If you kill a panther with a IS2 you get vet2 i think

vonklaus wrote:
please KVs suck if you ask me they cost alot and 75mm guns seems to penetrate KV1. No way you can get attack by 5 in ten minutes. You realize after every tank you build you are getting less resources? If there is any balance issue is that Soviets aren't strong enough late game to stand up to Germans. I play online almost every night and its easier to win as Germans than it is Soviets. I can clear map as Soviets easy in the beginning if I space correctly but if I dont camp on majority of fuel I will never beat a semi-smart player on 1000 point VP and annihilate because I have high upkeep on tanks and I can't build lvl 2 and 3 tanks instantly. Shrek Infantry also eat up Soviet armor. Il-2 costs less because Soviets get less munitions.

I am under the impression that the Sovs human player gets a +2muni/minute bonus. True or False?
I have been happy with the KV1's performance as an early tank. It takes a lot of damage and its slow speed allows infantry to keep up in support with less micro. Of course I usually go with Breakthru Doctrine so the upkeep cost is less of an issue.

blackbishop wrote:

cephalos wrote:
About IS-3: devs ate their tails.  ::) So many posts saying there will be historical accuracy in EF and so on, and we end up with IS-3.

Historic accuracy? Of course we have that at some extent. Remember that CoH is not made to be historically accurate, neither EF does.

Mad wrote:

cephalos wrote:
About IS-3: devs ate their tails.  ::) So many posts saying there will be historical accuracy in EF and so on, and we end up with IS-3.

Ouroboros?

lol ;D... but we aren't evil :P.

actually the wiki on it is surprisingly interesting.
and not all that evil, more sorta spiritual.

Fallschirmjager101 wrote:
There are three main balance concerns of mine regarding the Soviets.

Firstly, the tanks.  There can be no doubt that Russians have powerful tanks, but the IS-3 shouldn't really be included.  Historically, it came too early to have seen action against the Germans, and there were no official reports of it having seen any combat, although a regiment of them may have been deployed against the Japanese. 

The powerful tanks are available far too early, and it doesn't take long before you can have access to a KV tank or SU-152, thereby minimizing chance of a successful rush.  This is usually made easier for the Russian when the tanks are called in using a Power, so they don't need to save up any Fuel.  Getting attacked by several KV-2's can be slightly troublesome, particularly in well under 10 minutes.

Russian powers should cost - Artillery Spotters is free once the upgrade is purchased.  IL-2 Sturmoviks are highly overpowered for cost - a Henschel is 200 Munitions as well, and yet it only targets tanks, whereas the Sturmoviks hit everything and have the capability to decimate an armoured column, along with infantry. 

Although these may seem like a lot of issues, these are the ones that in my oppinion make versing the Russians annoying - not because of their power, but because of how cheap or easily they can access them.

hi welcome to the forums and glad you enjoying the game

I do agree you make some good points all of the soviet units are OP in some way and cheaper than other factions too and they have the most units of any faction.

Yes Otto, Soviets have a +2 munitions rate just for having a HQ like all factions get +5 fuel. However, munitions upkeep can still reduce it to 0.

Kvs suck? :o that is a new one. ::)

Redguard, could you quit the trolling around?

88 shells bounce off the KVs. I had 4 schreks target its rear armor and it just turned its turret around and blasted 8 Vet3 Tankbusters. Increase its price please.

KVs have had a few small changes made for the next patch.

Tico_1990 wrote:
Redguard, could you quit the trolling around?

Let him, am enjoying the fact that there is someone more useless then me ;D

GodlikeDennis wrote:
KVs have had a few small changes made for the next patch.

Hope we'll see a changelog this time.

RedGuard wrote:

Fallschirmjager101 wrote:
There are three main balance concerns of mine regarding the Soviets...
This is usually made easier for the Russian when the tanks are called in using a Power, so they don't need to save up any Fuel... IL-2 Sturmoviks are highly overpowered for cost - a Henschel is 200 Munitions as well, and yet it only targets tanks, whereas the Sturmoviks hit everything and have the capability to decimate an armoured column, along with infantry...  not because of their power, but because of how cheap or easily they can access them.

hi welcome to the forums and glad you enjoying the game.
I do agree... soviet units are OP in some way and cheaper than other factions...

I for one don't find the Sovs OP, but the cost for armored units is cheap. The slight discount in FP is fine and FP costs seem pretty balanced. The T34 and SU85 in particular have a MP cost that is very low.
I also have a concern with the IL2. Maybe it is too powerful and maybe not. The PE faction has no counter to it if the player doesn't choose LW Doctrine. That is a balance issue. Perhaps a rewards unit that provides an FlakHT to replace the muni HT, (as has been suggested elswhere), or a Flak Panzer teo replace the BergeTiger would correct this. I know the Devs are not interested in modding the vCoH units and the players want cheap units,  but weakening one of the playable factions doesn't seem right.

Otto wrote:
I also have a concern with the IL2. Maybe it is too powerful and maybe not. The PE faction has no counter to it if the player doesn't choose LW Doctrine. That is a balance issue.

Will be nerved in the next patch to match the 2.602 strafing and bombing run afaik. Low mun cost (in comparison to Henschel) because of the mun upkeep. Lets wait for changelog if its a balance issue anymore

@Killar: +1

MaxiKing6 wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
KVs have had a few small changes made for the next patch.

Hope we'll see a changelog this time.

What do you mean by that?

I thought that there hadn't been a changelog for 1.4 (or some things were missing) but I proofed myself wrong. So just ignore the post ;)

MaxiKing6 wrote:
I thought that there hadn't been a changelog for 1.4 (or some things were missing) but I proofed myself wrong. So just ignore the post ;)

The only things missing were the vet for the new addittions :P. And the changelog was (and is still) there.

blackbishop wrote:

MaxiKing6 wrote:
I thought that there hadn't been a changelog for 1.4 (or some things were missing) but I proofed myself wrong. So just ignore the post ;)

The only things missing were the vet for the new addittions :P. And the changelog was (and is still) there.

I'm aware of the changelogs existence, the missing veterancy was what I meant. :)

MaxiKing6 wrote:

blackbishop wrote:

MaxiKing6 wrote:
I thought that there hadn't been a changelog for 1.4 (or some things were missing) but I proofed myself wrong. So just ignore the post ;)

The only things missing were the vet for the new addittions :P. And the changelog was (and is still) there.

I'm aware of the changelogs existence, the missing veterancy was what I meant. :)

I'll try to not forget it this time.

I think the KV-2 is a bit too powerful. I sent 2 jagdpanzers after one that was alone and one got destroyed so I retreated. A second KV-2 came so called in a Jagdpanther and it lost half its health before destroying it >:(. Maybe the Kv-2 should be more effective versus infantry than tanks. I would think that would make sense given its an artillery tank, not a tank destroyer.

Btw idk the PE faction int completely defenseless versus aircraft. If I'm correct the armored car can shoot aircraft down(but not so well :P).

Fishhunterx wrote:
I think the KV-2 is a bit too powerful. I sent 2 jagdpanzers after one that was alone and one got destroyed so I retreated. A second KV-2 came so called in a Jagdpanther and it lost half its health before destroying it >:(. Maybe the Kv-2 should be more effective versus infantry than tanks. I would think that would make sense given its an artillery tank, not a tank destroyer.

Something else destroyed your tank destroyers or you have and older version of this mod (not 1.40) or your talking about ISU-152.

The KV-2 is too effective against tanks for a mid game anti infantry vehicle. It counters everything except the He-129 strafing runs. Watching the slow 40 kg shell of doom moving towards your vet 3 tankbuster blobs while your panzerschreks rockets bounce off harmlessly is depressing.

Fishhunterx wrote:

Btw idk the PE faction int completely defenseless versus aircraft. If I'm correct the armored car can shoot aircraft down(but not so well :P).

With PE you can choose 3 different docs to complement your main strategy, for example with luftwaffe in the rigth side you have: luftwaffe squads (early game advanced repair and flak 38 AA emplazament]) -> Wirbelwind!! The AA unit of PE. 88 (the AT gun hunter of pe ^^)

But if you play as tank hunter your AT power is to big with 2x sreks spending only 255/75 apc rounds, early hetzer/jagdpanzer, teller mines.... then you dont have AA guns.

Last edited July 27, 2011 at 6:22 AM by Hamasei

Something else destroyed your tank destroyers or you have and older version of this mod (not 1.40) or your talking about ISU-152.
[/quote]
Your'e probably right  :P. Maybe it was b/c they both had some veterency?

Vet 3 KV-2s have +50% damage. This allows them to take on tanks decently. They should still easily be beaten 1v1 by a Panther.

KV2 is a good tank, but it eats up alot of manpower to get, added to that it's comically slow setting up a trap for it shouldn't be too much of a challenge, or artillery could ruin it's day.
it's also 5 doctrine points to get, that's quite alot.
course once it gets going it's just death to many PE units.

KV-2s are death to all PE units until you can get Panther Battlegroup.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Vet 3 KV-2s have +50% damage. This allows them to take on tanks decently. They should still easily be beaten 1v1 by a Panther.

thats it
but remember a vet3 kv2 can still become dangerous to your panther if dont move

but if you keep moving around the kv2 it should be a easy kill for a panther

KV2 shouldnt fight tanks. Actually the KV2 is pretty weak in defence despite its high health

Hello!
I have just "discovered" this amazing mod. Its a fantastic work. Thank you EF team.
But I have some complains. I think the russians are to easy to beat. They dont capture points and not get any fuel or ammo. So they not get reely heavy reforcment later in the game.
Are you working on this problem?

Jowi wrote:
Hello!
I have just "discovered" this amazing mod. Its a fantastic work. Thank you EF team.
But I have some complains. I think the russians are to easy to beat. They dont capture points and not get any fuel or ammo. So they not get reely heavy reforcment later in the game.
Are you working on this problem?

You're playing against a computer: Not of concern to balance.

Sounds more like a tech issue than anything :P

This topic was dead the very day it was conceived :P... don't know why I didn't realize sooner. Locked.