Operation Unthinkable...

Moving through the Caucasus into Iran and then rushing to the middle east to secure additional fuel supplies while starving the allies of theirs.

Yeah I agree making a push for the oilfields of the Middle East could be something the Soviets do. That whole region might have opened up if Unthinkable occurred.

those oilfields are the lifeblood of any war machine. seize the oil fields and sieze victory

Tankbuster wrote:

vonklaus wrote:
Greece never did anything? Well Alexander might have been Macedonia but most of his soldier were Greek. Culture Powerhouse unmatched by any in history. Is there any period of history in one region that has more great works, from Philosophy, to architecture, art, literature.

The Poster seems to forget that the Indian and Chinese cultures are way older than said "Cultural powerhouse" and they survive to this day.

but militarily there accomplishments are no where near the Greeks a small nation compared to these giants. Also very little of China or India affects my modern culture I live around (USA) compared to the amount of Greek or Roman.

A Soviet push through the Caucasus' for the Persian Oil fields and access to the Persian gulf makes a great deal of sense. Southwest Asia has been an sphere of influence that  Rusviets have been interested in expanding for over 150 years. History has shown this is a very difficult area to fight in and control. We are still fighting in Kandahar, a city founded by and named after Alexander 2300 years ago.

I think the Sovs would have pushed in a slightly different direction. Turkey. Arguably Tito could have delayed or turned back an allied push in the Adriatic. The Yugoslavs did capture Trieste in 1945! Greece was just becoming involved in a civil war with its homegrown Communists; which would and did cause problems for the Brits during the period we are talking about. There is no question that the Sov Navy controlled the Black Sea. I have never subscribed to the Domino THeory  but I think acquisition of access to the Mediterranean was viewed by the Rusviets as a matter of Lebensraum. Asia Minor is a much better base of operations for operations in the Middle East than the Caucasus'

THe denial of oilfields has been touched on. Q.How would the the Soviets have obtained rubber? Lend Lease would no longer be providing the Sovs with organic transport. The Soviet rail system was designed to deny access to invaders, not move materials through areas with a different rail gauge.

OT: @VonkLaus: Your assertion about the impact of  the Indo- Chinese vis a vis Greek influences on American culture is very lopsided. I am a Helle-phile. I keep copies of Homer (and Rumi too) in my bathroom for Xristos sake. THe Chinese started the Fast Food industry during the California Gold rush. Built the Transcontinental Railroad too. Has a Greek or Chinese ever answered the phone when you were trying to get Tech help or an insurance claim adjusted? It was more likely an Indian. The Indians also invented pancakes, an American cultural phenomenon -(Gr.). (Further.OT=Did Napoleon say an army marches on it's stomach)?
America's strength lies in its multi-ethnic, cross-cultural diversity. Belittling the contributions of any group or nationality is silly) - Sorry for the rant.

Last edited July 20, 2011 at 2:48 PM by Otto 213

It is true that the Western World basically evolved from the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations. My knowledge of ancient India is limited but I did read somewhere that the first documented war ever was recorded there around 10,000BC (correct me if I'm wrong).

China on the other hand, I do know. They have one of the most extensive military histories on the planet dating back to 8,000BC. Not once in their history, in any century, has their not been a major war. Their armies were extensive, and it most cases depending on the nature of the war, broke 500,000 to 1 Million men.

When the Greeks and Romans were developing their empires, the Chinese were already on their way to having multiple states, rather then city states (ancient China look's alot like Europe today, border wise) and were united if not briefly under Qin Shi Huang (First Emperor to unite China), who started the Great Wall. That was in 221 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif

As for the affects the Chinese may have on your daily life and culture, if you ever fired a gun, used a compass, or written on paper then you've been affected. If you have eaten food with a fork, or eaten rice or noodles, with said fork, you have been affected. The Silk Road is a very old and well traveled one :P

For more Chinese inventions, just search and you shall find.

I'd apologize for getting off topic again, but I'm not sorry. Love this stuff.

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Otto, good call on that. The Western Allies might have had the bulk of their forces in Central Europe, and with the Nordic countries recuperating, but that southern flank is exposed, other then the forces already in Italy.

Bringing up Turkey to, much like Sweden, would they been able to stay out of this one? I doubt that very much, especially with the Dardanelles Strait. Their was alot of pressure from both sides in WW2 for Turkey to get involved, and their military was mobilized during the entire war.

Last edited July 20, 2011 at 3:07 PM by tigerclawstyle

But when was China a might outside of China? Cultural or Militarily? Sure we today read and study Sun Tzu but was Japan, Korea, or any of China neighbors studying him greatly near the times of his writings? On the other hand Greco-Roman culture reached beyond there borders during the times of there existence. I am not trying to say one is better than the other but its clear that Greco-Roman cultured surpassed its potential based on its relative population compared to what Chinese culture has accomplished relative to there population.

Further more even though China is the largest manufacturer in the world are they exporting there culture? No, they are mostly making goods for Western Culture.

Last edited July 20, 2011 at 4:26 PM by vonklaus

Rome is to Western Civilization as is China is to the Sinic Civilization, can we at least agree on that? The Romano-Chinese relations date back to the Han dynasty. Both civilizations brought each other diverse ideas and goods with the Silk Road being the link. I won't even bother to list all the things the Chinese provided cultures along the route, but they basically have a stamp on every field of study. Medicine, Mathematics, Astronomy, Philosophy, anything, their is some Chinese influence.

As for China not going around war mongering, they believed that China was "All under heaven" and any land beyond it wasn't worth anything. The land they have controlled through all their extensive dynasties hasn't changed borders much compared to modern day. But virtually every culture in Asia, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Burmese and Thai have been influenced by the Chinese. Even though Genghis Khan wasn't Chinese, many of the engineers responsible for his siege weapons and such, were, and that brought more knowledge west. That's just one example.

As for your statement regarding them not exporting there culture, I don't know where your located, but last time I checked theirs a Chinatown in every major city in North America and Europe. Over 40 million "overseas Chinese." Martial arts, acupuncture, Chinese Traditional medicine, and religion are just afew things besides the retail or food aspects of their culture that you can find if you look. Also, most of the goods they export are demanded needs by the Western market. Most of the things they produce stay inside China, because the population of their market is greater then NA, Europe and Russia combined. Western companies produce and market things specifically for the Chinese, and are only sold in China. For example, the Asian technology is some fields is a couple years ahead of Western technology. When I visited China in 2006, they had 300 cellphones for their market, whereas in North American services offered about 70. I bought a cell phone there that didn't start getting sold here for another two years.

This time I sincerely apologize on going off topic again. This will be the last time I discuss the matter.

Last edited July 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM by tigerclawstyle

Nothing you says refutes anything I said. There are China towns because they are full of Chinese people, not because there are a bunch of people who want to be like Chinese. I might go eat there or get some knock off crap but Im not moving. Influencing your neighbors shows nothing because the influence goes both ways.

The point I was trying to make before we went off topic of off topic is that some mention that Roman and Greek culture is a joke compared to India and China and my point is that its not. Then somehow it became which culture is better/more influential. Id say when population is put into the equation then Chinese accomplishments seem even smaller, what if Greece had the population and size of china?

I apologize if my posts seemed to be trying to convince you the Chinese are superior to the Greek/Roman civilizations. That is definitely not how I wanted my posts to be viewed. I merely wanted to express the fact the Ancient Chinese brought much to this world, just like the Greeks/Romans did. Both civilizations evolved along different lines, but existed at the same time.

Regardless, if you don't consider my views to refute your consensus on modern China and multicultural aspects of mass migration of people/cultures, then that's your opinion. I'm Anglo-Saxon but I value both civilizations equally, even if I really have no lineage to their cultures or histories.

Again, I apologize.

Back on topic please. One thing I'd like to mention is that the original Unthinkable plan had planned to use 100,000 Germans that were POW's. With Germany in ruins and the people recuperating, do you think the Germans would want to get involved in this? I mean if things kicked off right after the German surrender, and the gathering of POW's (separating regular army and SS men) would give a boost to the western forces or would it be a mistake? Anti-Bolshevism was rampant among most of the Germany military.

Another thing we should focus on is what may happen in East and Central Asia more closely. According to Wiki, the Soviets had 1,685,500 men, 26,137 artillery, 1,852 sup. artillery, 5,556 tanks and self-propelled artillery, and 5,368 aircraft. Also need to take into account, the Nationalist's and Communists in China. If anyone can find out a rough estimate of the Anglo-American forces that were being organized for the Invasion of Japan, we might have a clearer idea of what might have happened.

After some research into this, the question I pose is would the Western forces be able to handle both Europe/Asia, and vice versa, the Soviet's ability to fight on opposite sides of the planet?

What is the fundamental breaking point for both forces?

@Otto, off the top of my head, with Soviet production at an all time high during the 40's, my best guess is that they would do what they did eventually in many other proxy wars. Give nationalistic movements, weapons, equipment and try to indoctrinate them as much as possible.

Suez Canal, very crucial part of the Middle East. The crisis their in 1956 almost led to another major war, so it wouldn't be hard to imagine if it would be a flashpoint in Unthinkable. Soviets depend on it just as much as Europe.

Last edited July 20, 2011 at 11:43 PM by tigerclawstyle

Gentleman, the discussion of the merits of different cultures is interesting. I would suggest that Human civilization is a culmination of all the advances of all the myriad cultural and ethnic groups. Does Attic redware or a Ming vase have anything to do with the Cold War?

After WWII ended the British Colonial Empire rapidly unraveled. Within three years the British Mandate in Palestine was gone. India and Pakistan were independent. Nationalist movements were sprouting up around the world. The Soviets strongly supported the Zionist Independence movement. The British had considerable difficulties in suppressing the Vichy, Arab, and "Aryan" and Socialist interests in the Middle East and Greece. I submit these were all nationalist movements that were concerned less with ideology then they were with getting rid of the British. Muslim Fundamentalism was not an issue. How would the Soviets have taken advantage of these Nationalist movements in the event of Unthinkable. If I were Papa Joe I would have mounted an operation to neutralize the Suez Canal and limitn Anglo/Allied communications between the East and West. Do You think they could do it.

I would have thought in this situation that IF there was some kind of attack by the allies upon the soviets, the USA would have built up a completely different land army in alaska as well, using the short distance to siberia as a way of getting into Russia with relative ease. thus also drawing Soviet soldiers into an ever-increasingly large front, considering also that the British were also going to attacking from the middle east, the Russians would have been massively stretched to cover all of their flanks. regarding diplomatic movements, i would have thought, like everybody else, that Korea and other Communist states would have immediately sided with the Soviets. But we must remember that in the pacific, the forces there were large and extremely well trained, IE: Marines. Also we have to consider at the time of the attack, airbourne units were being transferred to the pacific for the attack on the Japanese homeland.

It's a tough call, Either side could win. The Soviets have a massive ground presence and power, but we must look at the casulties suffered by the soviets already in the war. the soviets were not innumerable, they lost between 8 million and 10 million in Military deaths alone, and around 23 million including civillians and military altogether. It wouldnt surprise me if the Soviet people rose up against stalin in protest against another world war. The americans and british would most definitely have attacked supply lines and bombed Soviet russia mercilessly, as well as nuking japan and forcing them out of the war.

Myself, i would see it ending in a peace treaty, where neither side wins nor loses. 

@ Vast enemy: Welcome to the community and the discussion.

The time frame for Operation would not likely have occurred until after the Surrender of the Japanese. I think of it in terms of 1946 to 1950 mysyself. USA and Anzac would be in occupation of Japan and parts of CHina.

The Soviets had occupied Manchuria and the Northern half of Korea, in accordance with the Yalta Agreements.To my knowledge the only Communist States in place at the time would be USSR and Yugoslavia. Mao was still attempting to gain hegemony in China. Korea and the Eastern European States were occupied by USSR but not really Communist States at this time. Possibly the Communist movements among the Western Allied States (USA, GB, Italy and France), would have increased their subversive  activities. India probably had a pro Soviet movement at the time, (I don't really know, but There were Nationalist Indian groups that supported the Japanese and Nazi's. If so they could have formed a thorn in the side of the Commonwealth.

Your ideas of Stretching the Soviets the breaking point seems to me to be the most reasonable strategy. Stalin was certainly alarmed at the prospects of a two front war and Soviet Diplomacy throughout the 30's and 40's reflected this. A three front war? Hmmm! One strategic weakness the Red Army had was in logistical support. USA had sent over 100,000 Studebaker trucks to USSR over the course of WWII. Time and time again I have read German accounts indicating the Soviet operations in the west were curtailed by "supply problems". Presumably USA air operations from CHina, Japan, Alaska and the US Navy would have interdicted the Siberian Rail System. Soviet Operations in the Caucauses would not have been made any easier by these considerations.

Several posters in this thread have mentioned the Nuclear Option. I reject this as a viable method to bring the Soviets to their knees. It is possible that I am biased in this regard having lived through the era of M.A.D. and have a revulsion to the whole concept. However allow me to interject some ideas into this area. What would be the targets of nuclear strikes? Since AAF capabilities of the period were one bomber, one warhead and the flight distance to most targets would be 500-700 miles one way; could the USA really have delivered enough payloads to make this a viable option? From 1945 to 1952 the USA only detonated about 22 nuclear devices IIRC.

There is one area where I am in disagreement with your thoughts Vast enemy. I don't think the Soviet People would have  rebelled against the Stalin regime. In spite of decades of cruel repression by Stalin, the soviet people supported him. I don't know why. Also The history of the Russian, (and Soviet), peoples has shown that they will never ever give up the Motherland without one hell of a fight.

(I don't really know, but There were Nationalist Indian groups that supported the Japanese and Nazi's. If so they could have formed a thorn in the side of the Commonwealth.




Otto 213 what you say was actually British propaganda. Indian nationalist groups never supported the ideas or practices of the Japanese or the Nazis. They merely viewed them as a tool to facilitate an end to British dominance.

sure the russians had bigger armies at the end of ww2, but supplying and keeping those armies fit for service is quite another thing.
it would probably have ended in a bloody stalemate.