[1.4] SU-85

I was playing a match against PE as SU today and my SU-85 was beating his Jadgpanther in a front-armour slug fest easily. I have no strong feelings either way as to how this should be, I'm just wondering if it was the devs' intention, 'cause I found it pretty surprising.

Another thing related to the SU-85, but this is more of a bug: He ran his blob of 5-6 assault grens into the back of my TD and they all got insta mulched. The TD was stationary.

One final thing related to the same match: In the beginning of the match two regular PG squads in the open held up against one command squad and one conscript squad, and then a second conscript squad after the first was retreated, which were in light cover. Should this be? In fact, IIRC, he managed to cap a point during this fight also with one of those PG sqauds.

Thanks.

Do you have the replay?

This should be the right one.

Edit:
Having watched the replay myself it looks like that first encounter with the PGs didn't go quite how I remembered it. And when my SU-85 was beating the Jadgpanth it was vet 2 from all the inf crushes. I didn't even notice at the time.

Last edited June 5, 2011 at 1:08 AM by SnappingTurtle

Kinda anecdotal. I'm not sure how a SU-85 could possibly compare to a Jagdpanther. You sure it wasn't a jagdpanzer?

Ok, just watched the replay. Was a jagdpanzer. The blob running into the tank is nothing new and there was nothing wrong with the PGs at the start, or throughout the whole game in fact.

Last edited June 5, 2011 at 5:45 AM by GodlikeDennis

now how did I know that? seems I have a nose for exaggerated storys, this seems to happen a lot on these forums  ;D

LOL I love it when random blobs of inf run into tanks and die! But I think if possible this should be fixed to only the front gets the crush ability.

I really don't like the infantry crushing in CoH. It's so arbitrary and ridiculous. I think there should only be infantry crush in special cases, like with the Sherman mine flail.

There's little skill involved when half your opponent's gren squad decides to suicide charge under your tracks instead of firing that panzerschreck.

No, crushing is a big tactic for me. Just not the sides. :-\

OMG 4-6 PG squads 1020mp/300am - 1530 mp/450am Crushed by su 85, and 2 jagdpanzer 1280 mp stomped by the same Su 85 O.O "2000" mp vs more less "300" and 300 wining hmmmmmm  :o , anyway this time was a " special situation" with PG but is not feasible situations like this in a quality mod like EF.

I think the jagdpanzer have some problems to kill soviet tanks and stay alive. he only can kill the ligth tanks well.

The Su-76 with de AT rounds can kill a ostwin in 3 shots in a super long range. and if the ostwin was with 70% of life in 2 shots.

The jagdpanzer was suposed to be a AT tank and it cant kill 2 tanks.

BALANCE PLEASE.  :'(

Last edited June 7, 2011 at 3:04 AM by Hamasei

Hamasei wrote:
BALANCE PLEASE.  :'(

Youre asking devs to ballane your poor gameplay?
Jagdpanzer is a Hetzer with a better AT gun, SU-76 is like a Marder without a lockdown. If you think that Marders and Hetsers are unballaned post Relic.

^^+1 Paciat

jagpanzers have among the top armor and weapon systems in the game

hetzer armor, ACPR rounds, good hitpoints, upgun option, speed, increased LoS - need I say more?

If you cant kill armor with these things your game is lacking

Paciat wrote:

Hamasei wrote:
BALANCE PLEASE.  :'(

Youre asking devs to ballane your poor gameplay?
Jagdpanzer is a Hetzer with a better AT gun, SU-76 is like a Marder without a lockdown. If you think that Marders and Hetsers are unballaned post Relic.

Marders was unbalaced in 2.601 because cant see the ligth tanks and cant escape of them. but now they have + LOS with lockdown and + traking speed  :) now also with ketten you can use well the fire range of marders, before NO without lossing inf. (45 reinforce cost  :o)

Otherwise the hetzers need little more demange but this is not a EF issue.

Marder is The primary early-mid game At weapon of PE like 17 punder of brit, Wer pack 38 and Usa 57mm, why soviet have another AT weapon like this? zis 2 and SU 85? well because this is a mod, dont compare the coh vanila balace with the EF balance when you prefer.

Marders cant crush enemy inf because are AT weapons, and for your information the su 85 must be like stug 4 no like marder, but only wanting balance ofcourse, if you like OP armys SU 85 is ok crushing 4 squads and stoping all vehicles and medium tanks of axis alone.  8)

IF you want to compare coh vanila balance with EF balance, look this:

With wer you have 2 options with tales of valor to t3:

Stug 4 (more armour, little acuracy vs inf)
Getzuswagen (better AT, 0 acuracy vs inf better range) is the same concept of the marder 3.

SU 85: "Good" armour, and good AT, relative good acuracy vs inf... hmmm, i dont know but where is the weak point of SU 85 comparing with axi AT vehicles?

(your poor game play? you speak without knowing LOLOLOLOL ::)
if you do the same with your arguments... men, please take it more serious, or dont try to be right)

BALANCE PLEASE!

Last edited June 7, 2011 at 9:26 AM by Hamasei

Last I checked the SU-85 isn't good against infantry at all. It's armor is lackluster too, a few shreck hits or a couple Pak hits will kill it.

If you're concerned about balance then hold your tongue, I'd say here. It is not OP if you ran your infantry up against it and had it steamrolled. For Christ sake that's like throwing MP44 Pgrens VS Shermans. What the FUCK were you thinking?!

Excuse my language but this isn't of real balance concern if poor microing and bad usage of JAGDPANZERS, no less, is the evidence you have.

And FFS a Su-76 can be circled just like a marder... ::) It's armor is pretty light too, if you're having problems you need a flanking lesson ;)

RedGuard wrote:
^^+1 Paciat

jagpanzers have among the top armor and weapon systems in the game

hetzer armor, ACPR rounds, good hitpoints, upgun option, speed, increased LoS - need I say more?

If you cant kill armor with these things your game is lacking

He basically summed it up. If you can't kill SU-85s with Jagdpanzers then either you have horrible micro, extremely bad luck, or your enemy was GodLikeDennis.

Cranialwizard wrote:

He basically summed it up. If you can't kill SU-85s with Jagdpanzers then either you have horrible micro, extremely bad luck, or your enemy was GodLikeDennis.

You see the replay of this threard?

This is the balance problem, with jagdpanzer you need good micro, with su 85 no, im not speaking about my skill with the units, if you do well you can kill a IS3 only with amution halftracks and PG with AT granades....

Last edited June 7, 2011 at 9:35 AM by Hamasei

Hamasei wrote:
This is the balance problem, with jagdpanzer you need good micro, with su 85 no

SU-85 needs good micro as well. It can be easielly killed by paks and shrecks and even Marders will destoy them quickly if youre not paing attention (bad micro).
Jagdpanzers have hevier frontal armor while SU-85 armor (rear too) is immune to 37mm guns (Ostwind). Thars the only difference.

Last edited June 7, 2011 at 5:03 PM by blackbishop

Hamasei wrote:

Cranialwizard wrote:

He basically summed it up. If you can't kill SU-85s with Jagdpanzers then either you have horrible micro, extremely bad luck, or your enemy was GodLikeDennis.

You see the replay of this threard?

This is the balance problem, with jagdpanzer you need good micro, with su 85 no, im not speaking about my skill with the units, if you do well you can kill a IS3 only with amution halftracks and PG with AT granades....

Hamasei is a good player, so I'd take his opinions with a little more respect.  That said, I don't really see how the SU-85 is OP at this point, or how the Jagdpanzer is UP.

I do think StuGs / Gwagens and Jagdpanzers should be able to penetrate the SU-85 from the front (and vice versa) if they can't already, but that's it.

I have not played with Hamasai so I can not and will not make a judgement about him, simply re-stating that it would take poor micro or some bad luck to lose a Jagpanzer.

Having said this, I reinstate that SU-85s do not seem OP, nor do Jagpanzer's seem UP.

Yauz wrote:
I do think StuGs / Gwagens and Jagdpanzers should be able to penetrate the SU-85 from the front (and vice versa) if they can't already, but that's it.

I believe they can, if not then I believe it is an error, as they should be able to.

thx yauz

About the Hp,amour, and AT stats of Su 85 i dont have information to tell the truth

But one thing is clear. it can crush alot of squads because it have alot of speed, well. why this "hability" is realy unbalaced?

Because all alied armys of this game (stikys and buttoned) in coh vanila and EF (molotow) have something with infantry to demange the engine of axi tanks and if you go close you will have big chance to lose the tank.

With PE you must pay 50 for shot to the engine/wreks of 1 tank and why is woorse? because you must take the ATHT alive, is a obvius first target of your opponent if he want to use vehicles, an is too weak, then with axi you cant demange the engines with infantry and stop the crush, otherwise the axi inf is more expensive, is not very balanced if you can crush it very easy.

Mass M10s > everything PE have. Problem with PE, not Americans. Crush is a viable tactic. If you don't make use of it you're limiting yourself.

Small issue, but can PE flame grenades damage vehicle engines?  As Hamasei says, it really does appear that USSR motolovs can.

PE nades can't damage engines unless the vehicle's on really low health. Molotovs have been changed to match in the next version.

Cranialwizard wrote:
Last I checked the SU-85 isn't good against infantry at all. It's armor is lackluster too, a few shreck hits or a couple Pak hits will kill it.
[...]
And FFS a Su-76 can be circled just like a marder... ::) It's armor is pretty light too, if you're having problems you need a flanking lesson ;)

And about the "effective vs. Infantry" thing: I'm quite sure that EVERY soviet tank got a huge splash radius, at least compared to US/Wehr counterparts.

And to be fair - its still easier to circle marders than Su-76. It looks like the Su does not have range firing speed modificators and does not have a wind up/down. And it cannot be destroyed by light infantry smgs.

Last edited June 8, 2011 at 9:27 AM by dArCReAvEr

marder is the best tank destroyer in the game ;)

RedGuard wrote:
marder is the best tank destroyer in the game ;)

Against US maybe. But against soviets its still a liability imo. I have to play more games in [IP address redacted] but I still think that Marder IIIs without APCR suck against soviet armour. With APCR/Offensive vet they are quite effective, though.

I have good results against Russian Tanks too!
Use them in couple with a good infantry cover.  ;)

Moonwalker wrote:
I have good results against Russian Tanks too!
Use them in couple with a good infantry cover.  ;)

Are tank riders "good infantry cover? ;D (Human shields)

Paciat wrote:

Moonwalker wrote:
I have good results against Russian Tanks too!
Use them in couple with a good infantry cover.  ;)

Are tank riders "good infantry cover? ;D (Human shields)

Hahaha, the are a schield for the tank!  ;D ;D

dArCReAvEr wrote:

RedGuard wrote:
marder is the best tank destroyer in the game ;)

Against US maybe. But against soviets its still a liability imo. I have to play more games in [IP address redacted] but I still think that Marder IIIs without APCR suck against soviet armour. With APCR/Offensive vet they are quite effective, though.

I would  pick marders vs any armor type - even jagpanther.
I've had an IS-3 destroyed by 2 well microed marders and a hotckiss  :-[  :(

well it seems like this thread has lived its course and is going too off topic