[[IP address redacted]] PE PGs

So I've had this idea since the days of old, Its not going to happen in vcoh anymore now that the final patch has been released.

Im aware of the stance on changing vanilla factions but I think we should make an exception in this case, IMO its a necesary change.

My proposal is to lower PG reinforce cost to ~41mp each
I think PE's shortcomings in the balance department have always stemmed from the huge reinforce cost

thoughts?

I'd like to know if its possible to have a units reinforce cost change according to vet or upgrades? because if so we could lower their reinforce cost initially and have it raised eventually back to their current 45Mp each if they attain a certain level of vet and/or upgrades (ie. zeal)

Last edited June 4, 2011 at 7:00 PM by RedGuard

The entire 2.602 PE is fine.  PG's higher 45 manpower reenforce cost is just part of the faction design.  This goes double in EF because USA strafe already has a siren warning.

Part of playing PE is mastering near-perfect micro early game so you don't have to 45 mp reenforce too much.  If you preserved your PGs early on then you can spend that manpower on upgrades instead.  If your PGs get mauled early on, then you will be punished by having to 45 mp reenforce instead of upgrading.

Yauz wrote:
The entire 2.602 PE is fine.  PG's higher 45 manpower reenforce cost is just part of the faction design.  This goes double in EF because USA strafe already has a siren warning.

Part of playing PE is mastering near-perfect micro early game so you don't have to 45 mp reenforce too much.  If you preserved your PGs early on then you can spend that manpower on upgrades instead.  If your PGs get mauled early on, then you will be punished by having to 45 mp reenforce instead of upgrading.

Yauz pretty much nailed that one there. The 45mp reinforce is there as a way to say "Preserve your squads". Who knows? If you preserve them long enough you might just be able to afford another one :)

I dont think thats the reason at all, you're supposed to preserve all your squads no matter what faction you're playing.

PE has never been as competitive as wehr, im just trying to bring PE up to wehr level so they're not skipped over anymore when you really want to compete, wehr is like a pre determined choice over PE in matches and they should be equals

Consider the 45 MP Reinforce as like a toll. I understand you are asking for a slight reduction of cost, but it would upset the balance if PE Gren Blobs were cheap to reinforce and could easily be sent back out onto the field patched up and ready to roll.

That being said I wouldn't mind so much as a reduction to 40-42 MP. It wouldn't make too much of a difference and I think 45 is quite a toll.

However, consider that Grenadier Reinforcement is 37 MP for a 4 man squad...

Grenadier isn't nearly as good as PGs.

^^that is very debatable in of itself, and open to interpretation

I still think taking PG reinforce cost to 42mp is long overdue, its 3 more mp not a gamechanger. not much to ask really why cant it be implemented

you probably wont even realise the change in real time. lets do it

@Red Guard: I agree that the PE reinforce rate is high. Is 2.602 really the last patch? Developers can be flakey sometimes. (ISU-3 will never be in EF)? I suspect the EF_Dev_team will do every thing possible to keep Vanilla Factions vanilla in hopes of getting EF acceptable to the huge vCoH player base for PvP. As a balancer what do you think about increasing the reinforce cost for the Sovs (and Ostheer), perhaps based on a total HPs/ squad basis?

Seeme wrote:
Grenadier isn't nearly as good as PGs.

RedGuard wrote:
^^that is very debatable in of itself, and open to interpretation

It is true that PGs > Grens but; PE faction lacks the variety of support troops of other factions. Dependent upon Doctrinal choice, no field defenses. No flamethrowers, no LMG's, no snipers, no free squads from the medics, substandard panzershreks (IMO), abominable capping rates, extremely limited mine laying capabilities, expensive munitions and the lowest HP/Squad of any Line Infantry. On top of that until the end game when the Pz V arrives PE lacks an effective anti tank vs tank option So PGs and light vehicles have to take up the slack. In this light Grens aren't that bad. I play PE because it is a challange.

QuotePE because it is a challange.-Otto

Don't we all.

@Otto
I think PE's mobility is designed to counter that. PGs are a T0 unit. The way I see it they're designed to support the vehicles, not the other way around. They have no sniper because, compared to other more inf-heavy factions, MGs and mortars are largely ineffective.

Abominable capping rates? They have kettenkrads and scout cars.

SnappingTurtle wrote:
@Otto
I think PE's mobility is designed to counter that. PGs are a T0 unit. The way I see it they're designed to support the vehicles, not the other way around. They have no sniper because, compared to other more inf-heavy factions, MGs and mortars are largely ineffective. Abominable capping rates? They have kettenkrads and scout cars.

@SnappingTurtle
Very true. I don't want to turn this thread away from its purpose.

But if in vCoH Panzergrenadiers has this cost for reinforcement, why EF Devs should change it?

If I haven't lose nothing, EF Devs won't go far away from vCoH settings, espacially with vCoH faction.

Anyway 45 MP it's ok.

This is the kind of controvertial stuff we can test in our internal version :P.

blackbishop wrote:
This is the kind of controvertial stuff we can test in our internal version :P.

+1

Want cheap reinforcement and more HP? Use fallshimjeagers they also have uberweapons and are cheaper than Tommies.
PGs once upgraded to 4 man are the cheapest do it all infantry. (actually their the only do it all infantry ingame). They should be as easy to kill as they are easy to field, and their reinforce cost should be the same as Stormtroopers since their damage output (with MP44/shrecks) is the same.

No, No NO. We've said a million and a half times we won't change vanila balance stuff. Especially such core elements. I'm sure if it was a remotely true issue it would have changed in 2.602

Hence the problem we have. PGs are too expensive in the early game and too cost effective after a few upgrades. We'll test this in the dev version and see how it plays out. We probably won't keep the changes though unless for some reason they turn out great.

Last edited June 5, 2011 at 10:56 AM by GodlikeDennis

I don't think you quite understand. We've said we won't alter the vanila balance and that will remain so no matter what.
Previous changes were only made as a stop gap to relic's patch(and we used the expert's log, not our own changes). It is a core design for EF and will not change, period.
This is not open to discussion really and it's set on stone.

Zerstörer wrote:
I don't think you quite understand. We've said we won't alter the vanila balance and that will remain so no matter what.
Previous changes were only made as a stop gap to relic's patch(and we used the expert's log, not our own changes). It is a core design for EF and will not change, period.
This is not open to discussion really and it's set on stone.

Topic locked? :P

Indeed  ;)