[[IP address redacted]] Shock Guards

Dose anyone else think that they may be a little to strong? They are almost impossible to kill. I seen blobs of Mp44s get killed from 3 of them. Even Whirlwinds cant seem to hurt them to much.But even more of a problem is that they are so spam able! I would recommended maybe having a higher cost. 1 on 1, they would beat Knights Cross. It would only be fair to make it slightly more costly.

Anyone else agree?

Last edited June 4, 2011 at 4:17 PM by Seeme

I think strength-wise, they were fine last patch.  In 1.302, they could already slightly beat KCH in a 1v1.  There was no need for a further buff with the DP guy, and no need to make them pay extra for their SVT semi automatic rifles either.  And yes, unlike KCH, they are spammable.

Last edited June 4, 2011 at 6:03 PM by Yauz

I always thought they were fine strength wise too, they take huge amounts of resources to tech to and actually are killed kind of easy by axis combined arms

RedGuard wrote:
I always thought they were fine strength wise too, they take huge amounts of resources to tech to and actually are killed kind of easy by axis combined arms

So do KCH?  Except...they aren't spammable?

Well, once he dose get the resources to get it he basically kills every Inf out there. Tanks take forever to kill them, which means a fine target for AT nades (which are free). So basicly they almost win the game. For PE, its super not fair. They kill mp44 blobs and kill Marders quickly.

Maybe a Nerf anywhere would be good.

Yauz wrote:

RedGuard wrote:
I always thought they were fine strength wise too, they take huge amounts of resources to tech to and actually are killed kind of easy by axis combined arms

So do KCH?  Except...they aren't spammable?

KCH are cheaper more survivable, and do alot more damage with mp44's. they also have heroic armor and are near invulnerable to snipers

KCH beat guards 1v1(and everything else) unless you invest resources in their shock guard upgrade and buy their rifles for a muni cost

Even without the Svt upgrade, they are OP. 3 squads can kill any gren spam, PE spam, or Volks spam. They would win KCH spam because of there DPS Suppress them easily. I would post replays and videos, but I think you all know what I mean.

Seeme wrote:
Even without the Svt upgrade, they are OP. 3 squads can kill any gren spam, PE spam, or Volks spam. They would win KCH spam because of there DPS Suppress them easily. I would post replays and videos, but I think you all know what I mean.

SG's are very strong, no doubt about it. Perhaps if they are too much and need balanced the squad size can be reduced to 4 or 5 men.

Well...

IMO Guards and Shock Guards doesn't need big changes but only few little settings for be ok.

Today with, CS with PPs43 (no vet.), 1 Guard squad, 1 Shock Guard squad (both with SVT pack) I've killed almost 4 squads of Panzergrenadiers with StG44 in a super close combat, losing only 3 men of CS and 3 Guards.
Theoretically SVT should would be designed for a medium range fight, not for close combat, and with DP-28 S.Guards has an extra long range power.
IMO You Devs should decide if Guards are able to engage enemies from medium/long or shot distances, like KCH, designed for close combat.

Moreover, IMo the main problem of the Guards is that they are easly spammable (not seems, but it's true, I do that  :P :P).
An Elite unit like Guards shouldn't be EASLY spammable without a big use of the risources (do not misunderstand, I'm not talking about nerfing or other).

This is my concept:

1) Armory upgrade for Shock Guards: It's ok, no changes needed.

2) Devs must decide if they want Guards for a close combat (but we've got RBS with PPsh41) or a medium/long range combat (IMO the best solution with SVT, but in this case Guards should be lose against StG44 blobs)

3) Increase the Guards cost to 380 MP and Shock Guards to 400 MP.

4) About abilities I've nothing to say, they're ok with a long cool down time.

Or just nerf Guard frag granades to Grenadier stick nades to lower their close combat efectivness.

we're on top of it, theres some rather dramatic changes happening to guards right now.

What if we just swap the roles of Strelky/Guards?

This is how it is now:
RBS with 7 men and PPSH do a lot of damage to every kind of enemy infantry. DP-28 is still underused.
SG are veeery strong. Like Seeme described, no replay is needed to show that. With that one DP-28 and its nice supression, getting close is rather hard if your micro is bad (important for KCH, because of their very-good-at-short-range-MP44s).

We can solve both problems now with a simple exchange:

The Red Banner Strelky will be equipped with, let's say, 4 or 5 SVTs for better medium range capabilities by the Red Banner upgrade. Aditionally, an upgrade for 2 DP-28 is researchable, giving no alternative (PPSH is moved away from RBS), DPs price can remain at 50mun.

Guards however get the option, when upgraded to Shock Guards, to equip with PPShs for the whole squad. It would fit perfectly with the nades which force the SGs to get close to enemies. The upgrade cost to PPSHs can also remain at its current level.

Thoughts?

MaxiKing6 wrote:
What if we just swap the roles of Strelky/Guards?

Than we would have an allmost exact copy of US infantry company (Rifles+Rangers) that would still need detail balancing.
You can swap the roles of Strelky/Guards using DP-28 Strelky+Tankriders. :P

Paciat wrote:

MaxiKing6 wrote:
What if we just swap the roles of Strelky/Guards?

Than we would have an allmost exact copy of US infantry company (Rifles+Rangers) that would still need detail balancing.

Wasn't my intention. But well, Rifles can't upgrade with a light MG, eh? :P

BARs are an LMG.

RedGuard wrote:
we're on top of it, theres some rather dramatic changes happening to guards right now.

Thanks ;)

Btw the abilities are damage wise are fine, just add cost or cool down. AT nades fit them well once they are nerfed.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
What if we just swap the roles of Strelky/Guards?

This is how it is now:
RBS with 7 men and PPSH do a lot of damage to every kind of enemy infantry. DP-28 is still underused.
SG are veeery strong...We can solve both problems now with a simple exchange: The Red Banner Strelky will be equipped with, let's say, 4 or 5 SVTs for better medium range capabilities by the Red Banner upgrade. Aditionally, an upgrade for 2 DP-28 is researchable, giving no alternative (PPSH is moved away from RBS), DPs price can remain at 50mun.

Guards however get the option, when upgraded to Shock Guards, to equip with PPShs for the whole squad. It would fit perfectly with the nades which force the SGs to get close to enemies. The upgrade cost to PPSHs can also remain at its current level. thoughts?

I like this idea a lot. The only change I would make is to increase the cost to obtain two LMGs to 75 muni. to keep it more in line with other factions. Similarly for Naval Infantry, offer two weapons upgrades per squad but separate them as individual upgrades purchases for 50 muni each. They already get the molotov upgrade when Conscripts do. BTW whats this business about firing LMG's on the run? Seems a bit much for Swabbies.

Regarding the supposed OP of Shock Guards; if this is an issue reduce the squad size.

OT: I had a vet 3 guards squad get suppressed today. Has something changed?

Shock guards was fine on the past patch. In 1.4 they are TOO MUCH TOOO MUCH overpower or maybe buggy.

I'v played this match (great match, worth watching not just by balance concerns  ;D, 2 lvl 16 players - Itaperuna (16, top 18 1v1 Automatch), SgtYoda/3Pastel1Choops (16), Vitor (12) SuperSoca (14).

Itaperuna's StuH can't damage Shock Guards. Sometimes StuH shots and make absolutelly no damage on a full strike against Shock Guards. 80% of the StuH shots dont kill any squad member, beside the shot actually hits. Too much overpower.

SuperSoca wrote:
Shock guards was fine on the past patch. In 1.4 they are TOO MUCH TOOO MUCH overpower or maybe buggy.

I'v played this match (great match, worth watching not just by balance concerns  ;D, 2 lvl 16 players - Itaperuna (16, top 18 1v1 Automatch), SgtYoda/3Pastel1Choops (16), Vitor (12) SuperSoca (14).

Itaperuna's StuH can't damage Shock Guards. Sometimes StuH shots and make absolutelly no damage on a full strike against Shock Guards. 80% of the StuH shots dont kill any squad member, beside the shot actually hits. Too much overpower.

Yes, they are somehow bugged ;D... but i think they are fixed now on our internal version, meaning that for the next update are going to be normalized :).

blackbishop wrote:

SuperSoca wrote:
Shock guards was fine on the past patch. In 1.4 they are TOO MUCH TOOO MUCH overpower or maybe buggy.

I'v played this match (great match, worth watching not just by balance concerns  ;D, 2 lvl 16 players - Itaperuna (16, top 18 1v1 Automatch), SgtYoda/3Pastel1Choops (16), Vitor (12) SuperSoca (14).

Itaperuna's StuH can't damage Shock Guards. Sometimes StuH shots and make absolutelly no damage on a full strike against Shock Guards. 80% of the StuH shots dont kill any squad member, beside the shot actually hits. Too much overpower.

Yes, they are somehow bugged ;D... but i think they are fixed now on our internal version, meaning that for the next update are going to be normalized :).

Nice blackbishop, i thinked was a bug  ;)

SuperSoca wrote:

blackbishop wrote:

SuperSoca wrote:
Shock guards was fine on the past patch. In 1.4 they are TOO MUCH TOOO MUCH overpower or maybe buggy.

I'v played this match (great match, worth watching not just by balance concerns  ;D, 2 lvl 16 players - Itaperuna (16, top 18 1v1 Automatch), SgtYoda/3Pastel1Choops (16), Vitor (12) SuperSoca (14).

Itaperuna's StuH can't damage Shock Guards. Sometimes StuH shots and make absolutelly no damage on a full strike against Shock Guards. 80% of the StuH shots dont kill any squad member, beside the shot actually hits. Too much overpower.

Yes, they are somehow bugged ;D... but i think they are fixed now on our internal version, meaning that for the next update are going to be normalized :).

Nice blackbishop, i thinked was a bug  ;)

In fact, we tweaked Shock Guards and RBS thingy, and looks like now both are better than before or at least everyone liked it ;D.

Can't wait to see how they are  8).

Shock guards are Just OOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are the best elite troups! for the minable cost of 380 they blow what yu want!
OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP op....

Omg Didn't you read the whole conversion before your post ::)

TBH, a sniper/dual snipers would impose ludicrous manpower drains on them. And MG42s, even when not suppressing, would deal enough damage to somewhat-turn the tide of the fight. No doubt that theyre rediculously OP now, but just some ideas on how to combat them.

What kind of armor do the guards/SGs have? Powerful they are but I find Incendiary attacks in melee meltdown guard's health to the point where they can be neutralized.

Otto wrote:
What kind of armor do the guards/SGs have? Powerful they are but I find Incendiary attacks in melee meltdown guard's health to the point where they can be neutralized.

Elite. Same as Rangers and vet 2 Grens/Stormtroopers.

Actually try to kill a volksgranadier squad upgraded with assault grenades with a shock guard squad and you will instantly realize how weak shock guards are , one batch of assault grenades inflict about 80% damage to a shock guard squad which renders them useless because you'll have to retreat them .
Me and my friends had a lan party 2 days ago and we were absolutely shocked at how weak shock guards became after the patch .
Their only strength lies in their abilities ,but they are weak as an anti infantry unit , Naval squads are much more powerful as anti infantry squads .They also resist assault grenades much better .

??? . At first I thought you were referring to Shock Ingenery Inwhich cae I would agree. THey are really geared to assaults on structures. SG's Hold up well compared to upgraded PGs. Except for the price I will take SGs over NI anyday, I also think that NI performance vs infantry becomes impaired when Equipped with PTRDs. If I ever pick-up a ShootOn the Scoot DP, rather than upgrade I'll know for sure.

Last edited July 13, 2011 at 11:05 AM by Otto 213

Judging a unit's strength while being bombarded by assault grenades that stun does not equal a good balance argument.

Paciat wrote:Than we would have an allmost exact copy of US infantry company (Rifles+Rangers) that would still need detail balancing.

Maybe I'm wrong but aren't Rangers (and airborne) basically just Riflemen with different weapons and abilities?

Stats, damage, etc are different.

Yeah, I know they're a bit different, but I've never noticed anything major, like Volks to Grens.

I too find the shock guards in late game slightly OP. I was in a situation the other day where i had 2 kch and a vet2 pz4 and was pounding three squads of shockers, and the all three shockers were still intact as they mowed down the kch and began to rip the pz4 apart. This is not the only instance of the shockers being a little OPthat I have found. Take four squads of shockers and pit them against four kch's and see the outcome. 

Shockers would win of course. Even at Vet 3.

We can close this thread now. Guards are a substantially different unit to what they were.