[[IP address redacted]] Soviet Heavy Mortar post-upgrade

Does the Soviet Heavy Mortar after the upgrade get an accuracy penalty while free firing? I played 1 vs 1 game against AI and set the mortar up for about 10 minutes in the center of the map, it was firing almost continously at the large groups of PE infantry and halftracks as they attacked (I didn't use the barrage abillity) and in that entire time it didn't get any kills and most of its shots were too inaccurate to even damage the enemy squads, even when they were standing still or capping.

I understand that because of the power of its arty shells it can't be as accurate as a normal mortar, but even so it does seem a waste of an upgrade when I'm sure a normal mortar would have been racking up the kills. So was I using it wrong (for example I needed to use barrage or it was meant to be used on bunkers and buildings) or is there a problem with the accuracy? Anyone else notice this?

No, I dont believe it gets any kind of accuracy mod

But I've noticed that too, once you upgrade to the heavy mortar you really need 2-3 of them, otherwise you're not going to be hitting anything. so innacurate

I cant explain it, its odd. ???

Is there any difference in the trajectory of an artillery round and a mortar round in this game? That might be the cause, because of how the game sees it as an artillery shell and not a mortar shell so there is a different flight of the round.

Although if i recall correctly it was always kinda like this so your best bet is to deploy a couple of mortar teams regardless upgraded or not, so they can do more damage together.

Yeah the mortar is really inaccurate when upgraded. However, it gains massive range and the arty size shells to make up for the greater scatter. It becomes much less useful against moving blobs but much better against bunkers, paks, MG teams and other defensive positions. Unless you need it to take out an enemy mortar because it probably won't hit.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Yeah the mortar is really inaccurate when upgraded. However, it gains massive range and the arty size shells to make up for the greater scatter. It becomes much less useful against moving blobs but much better against bunkers, paks, MG teams and other defensive positions. Unless you need it to take out an enemy mortar because it probably won't hit.

With all the income you spend on it, I say, it sucks hard. Arty shells need to be tied to vet, not to the upgrade. Upgrade should bring range and accuracy. That would be fair, IMO. ATM it's just a waste.

The mortar is ok like it is now but I would still say that they should have the same range as the german mortar :P so that I can at least reach it.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Yeah the mortar is really inaccurate when upgraded. However, it gains massive range and the arty size shells to make up for the greater scatter. It becomes much less useful against moving blobs but much better against bunkers, paks, MG teams and other defensive positions. Unless you need it to take out an enemy mortar because it probably won't hit.

I have observed that upgraded 120mm mortars seem to vet faster when used with a ground attack rather than a barrage.

neosdark wrote:
Is there any difference in the trajectory of an artillery round and a mortar round in this game? That might be the cause, because of how the game sees it as an artillery shell and not a mortar shell so there is a different flight of the round.

My observation of smoke trails from the 120mm's supports your  theory that an artillery type low parabolic trajectory is being used rather than a high arc parabolic trajectory typical of mortars. Coupled with mortar scatter in a barrage this could well result in decreased accuracy.

Last edited June 8, 2011 at 7:27 PM by Otto 213

That's not exactly empirical evidence.

Anyway mortars are good as they are now because the accuracy is really bad :P.

Is it my imagination or do upgraded mortar shells take a lot more time to impact?

No but the barrage ability takes longer. The mortar team loads the rounds much longer than a normal mortar I mean this are "heavy" rounds.

@GodlikeDennis: Is this for barrage fire?

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Yeah the mortar is really inaccurate when upgraded. However, it gains massive range and the arty size shells to make up for the greater scatter.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
That's not exactly empirical evidence.

When I set up a Heavy mortar team I use several observed ranging shots on choke points. Depending on where the craters appear I choose  a ground fire target. This is empirical. My observation of faster vet is than based on the unobserved free fire at the last selected ground fire point. (Not empirical).

Last edited June 8, 2011 at 7:32 PM by Otto 213

Exactly, your observation of gaining vet faster is not empirical and is completely wrong.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Yeah the mortar is really inaccurate when upgraded. However, it gains massive range and the arty size shells to make up for the greater scatter. It becomes much less useful against moving blobs but much better against bunkers, paks, MG teams and other defensive positions. Unless you need it to take out an enemy mortar because it probably won't hit.

I am not trying to start a pissing contest here, nor is this meant as a personal attack. Neither the shell size, 120mm nor the range should change with the upgrade. A mortar is a mortar. The rate of fire should increase wether in barrage or ground attack, (particularly as the crew size increases to 4 or 5). This will increase the scatter in barrage and to some extent in ground attack due to heating-up of the barrel. Aimed fire (ground attack) should improve accuracy for even a 3 man crew, if they are ballistics experts or veterans. Increased damage results from more shells put into the air.

neosdark wrote:
Is there any difference in the trajectory of an artillery round and a mortar round in this game? That might be the cause, because of how the game sees it as an artillery shell and not a mortar shell so there is a different flight of the round.

It appears this may be so which would increase the scatter and decrease the accuracy of mortar rounds. It could also decrease the received damage dependent on how sophisticated the vCoH modeling engine is. An inappropriate trajectory model would also increase time in flight and time to impact whether against stationary or moving targets.

I'm sorry if this is too abstract for some gamers/balancers. It is clear that the 120mm mortar is not working satisfactorily. BTW I spent over 22 years in design, (including 81mm mortars)! It usually takes at least three tries to get a good design. There is hope, we are at two and counting.

Last edited June 9, 2011 at 11:17 PM by Otto 213

Realism argument does not compute...

From a strictly balance point of view, are you saying you would prefer if the upgraded mortar only effected the firing speed and accuracy? It's done the way it is for balance sake. Having arty size mortar shells early in the game is OP. If you want these you have to get the armoury upgrade which delays it to a more reasonable time.

I think he means avoid arty shells, just set the damage up from the 81mm and work from there, and see how the accuracy changes he suggested affect it. If so, add the arty shells the mortar currently has as part of a doctrinal unlock--god of war, perhaps. Arty shells off the bat, hell no.

@GlD: I'm sorry, I appologize in advance; but I can't resist:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Realism argument does not compute...

You sound like the dumb robot in the 1960's TV show "Lost in Space".  ::) Sorry. I had to get it out of my system.

Look mate the Sov mortar upgrade is broken. It needs fixed. - A design issue.

Relative to your balance question I agree at 3.3# per round of HE in a ground attack (which should be more accurate in targeting than it is), 240 MP is too cheap and doubtless too early for balance. After the upgrade 280 MP is probably too cheap as well. Maybe 300 or 320 MP would be more appropriate. In any case I expect long range from a 120mm mortar upgraded or not. After the upgrade I expect massive damage including engine criticals on anything it hits and a 3-4 shell barrage with a mortar trajectory and a long cool down between barrages. For vet I would suggest a slight increase in range, one or two accuracy buffs and reduction in cool down as crew size grows and experience increases. I don't particularly what order. Let the balancers decide.

As for the problem of the vanilla mortar, why not just make it an 80 mm mortar and be done with it. No other faction gets a mortar upgrade. If it is desired to turn it into a 120mm upon upgrade or as the crew size increases fine. You could even use it as a balancing tool Nuff said!

@GlD I'm glad you asked. You Aussies are tenacious. No wonder it took Rommel two tries to take Tobruk. With your great gaming prowess and your whimsical username you may appreciate this. It is from another work by the creator of the Greatest War Story in Literature:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/aresmarsmyth/a/102110-Mars-And-Venus-Caught-In-A-Net.htm

Actually the unupgraded mortar IS an 81mm I'm pretty sure. The upgraded one is the 120mm.

yeah the big boy 120mm

the heavy mortar upgrade isnt used much in contemporary play, it could probably use a very small price reduction to make it more appealing to counter wehr defensive, instead of the usual counters

I've crushed someone with one and they ended up whispering me for about 20minutes how OP it was lol.

its a hit or a miss, literally. they either end up wiping squads or get wiped themselves. the accuracy is terrible, I wish i had your luck with just 1  :) ;)

QuoteI've crushed someone with one and they ended up whispering me for about 20minutes how OP it was lol.

Hey! Why you didn't say my name! :D
I just think it has a quiet long range for such strong artillery rounds. My wehr mortar wasn't even able to reach the mortar before it died :P.

Actually it wasn't you lol. Now that I remember though you had quite the whiney tone :P.

walki1 wrote:

QuoteI've crushed someone with one and they ended up whispering me for about 20minutes how OP it was lol.

Hey! Why you didn't say my name! :D
I just think it has a quiet long range for such strong artillery rounds. My wehr mortar wasn't even able to reach the mortar before it died :P.

thats what US players say about wehr mortars  :P

Quotethats what US players say about wehr mortars  :P

but think about it: The US gets a mortar in their first building. The Wehrmacht needs to upgrade to tier2 and build their second building and then they get the mortar. Soviets need to build a 100 manpower building and upgrade then they get a mortar already.

Yeah when the 120mm hits it does tend to vet pretty quick.

The Amis pay the highest cost for the least effective mortar squad but get it quickly. "Get there first with the most"
The Sovs pay least for their 80mm (sic) mortar, but they have T1,T2,upgrade requirements much the same as Wher.
The Sov 120mm and PE cost the same but pack an artillery punch and range, whereas PE get that Kampf Gruppe mobility. I like the national flavors of the mortar squads.