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[[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Balance Discussion

#71835

[[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Hello,
I just played a 2vs2 in CoH:EF. The game was pretty balanced. Two soviets against me (wehr/blitz) and another guy with PE.
Then it happend. The soviet attacked me with his blob of marine infantry, conscripts and tank hunters. My 3 stuh's vet 3 easily hunted them down and I told my teammate that the middle vp is cleared so he moved in. Then he moved in and the same blob as the one I killed stood in front of him and then the soviet player said: "Red Tide ftw".

Now my thoughts. You get the Red Tide ability with 4 commandpoints and it's for. It respawns all infantry units which are killed while the ability is active and it's for free. Now lets look at "the counterpart" of the US Army. They need 3 commandpoints to get the ability to respawn two tanks after they were destroyed and this ability costs 200 ammo.

So in opinion (and/or):
-The Wehrmacht/PE should see if the Red Tide is active.
-Higher the cost of the Red Tide
-Lower the duration of it.
-Respawn only 3-4 killed infantry sqauds (conscripts doesn't count).
I identify as a four-eyed bird man. /s
#71847

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Wow, didn't know it was free.  so long as the first wave isn't a pyrrhic victory for wehr, then its not so bad, but that's a lot of free units.  I don't really think there should be a limit on how many units return(then the weakest squads will respawn and tap the russian out)  but it should probably cost 150 munitions.


Munitions absolutely do not seem hard to come by for Russian at the moment, so anything to spend them on is a good thing, now that they apparently start with a natural munitions income.  Played a game against my friend, and he had an is-2, a couple t-34's, an is-3 as his second wave of tanks, after previously having 3 su 85's with a couple t-34's and 2 t-90's.  He also had shock guards, upgraded tank hunters, and about 20 mines placed about the map...air strikes also came aplenty(are these still only 150?).  yes it was a long game, but he never seemed to suffer from muntions taxes enough to have to make any decisions about their use.

My biggest complaint about the red-tide is that we don't get to know that somebody pulled that trigger...there are no icons above the units, no sound effects(or is there and I just don't know it-there are a couple sound cues that send me into a panic but I don't know what they refer to).  Is it the opinion of the developers and balancers that such information would make the ability worthless?  I don't think it would myself, and it would have the added benefit for the user of letting him know when his squads were still under the ability's protection.

Last edited May 29, 2011 at 4:43 PM by Joshua9

#71872

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

do you have a replay?

you should've been set up if he can amass an army of cons, TH's and NI you should've had more than 3 STUHs

a few MG42's will kill endelss amounts of infantry if supported correctly

I havent even seen any good players use red tide
Soviet is OP
#71930

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

walki1 wrote:
1-The Wehrmacht/PE should see if the Red Tide is active.
2-Higher the cost of the Red Tide
3-Lower the duration of it.
4-Respawn only 3-4 killed infantry sqauds (conscripts doesn't count).


I agree with points 1 and 3.
#71932

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Yauz wrote:
walki1 wrote:
1-The Wehrmacht/PE should see if the Red Tide is active.
2-Higher the cost of the Red Tide
3-Lower the duration of it.
4-Respawn only 3-4 killed infantry sqauds (conscripts doesn't count).


I agree with points 1 and 3.


As do I.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#71934

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Hmm, I only agree with point 1 at this time.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#71937

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

We can add the same animator that allied war machine uses.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#71942

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Hmm, I only agree with point 1 at this time.

Same here, I could also agree with point 4.
Red Tide has a long cooldown and the whole point of having that ability is to get free units. Soviet player dosnt win anything if his troops die, he just looses vet, and vet 2 constripts and tank hunters are to valuable to just sacrifice them.
My Ostheer concept.
#71952

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Paciat wrote:
GodlikeDennis wrote:
Hmm, I only agree with point 1 at this time.

Same here, I could also agree with point 4.
Red Tide has a long cooldown and the whole point of having that ability is to get free units. Soviet player dosnt win anything if his troops die, he just looses vet, and vet 2 constripts and tank hunters are to valuable to just sacrifice them.

That taken, I don't see why an enemy should have such an information - that will make the ability pretty much useless against someone not totally dumb.
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#71953

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

IJoe wrote:
Paciat wrote:
GodlikeDennis wrote:
Hmm, I only agree with point 1 at this time.

Same here, I could also agree with point 4.
Red Tide has a long cooldown and the whole point of having that ability is to get free units. Soviet player dosnt win anything if his troops die, he just looses vet, and vet 2 constripts and tank hunters are to valuable to just sacrifice them.

That taken, I don't see why an enemy should have such an information - that will make the ability pretty much useless against someone not totally dumb.

You can see when an US player uses allied war machine... why that wouldn't fit Red Tide as well?
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#71955

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

blackbishop wrote:
You can see when an US player uses allied war machine... why that wouldn't fit Red Tide as well?

That's easy - tanks don't go to waste in a matter of seconds just by hmg fire, or even a minefield. They are also highly more mobile.
And, I think, since axis "instant resources" aren't visible (if I remember correctly), this ami feature shouldn't be visible for them (just another example of how wehr is OP to ami  ;D).
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#71956

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

this might come as shock to some people ::) but I do think activation of red tide should be visible

and I dont agree with any other nerfs someone already pointed out that if you do have to use red tide you're throwing vet away, which in the end game is extremely valuable to have
Soviet is OP
#71959

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

RedGuard wrote:
this might come as shock to some people ::) but I do think activation of red tide should be visible

and I dont agree with any other nerfs someone already pointed out that if you do have to use red tide you're throwing vet away, which in the end game is extremely valuable to have

I just don't see it, why should it be changed in any way, from what it is now? Just because 1 dude got upset, that his ally encountered a blob, that he had just recently killed? Not much of  a reason for me ::)
Don't take my words for rage - I don't care, since I never use that crap anyway (for reasons mentioned).
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Last edited May 30, 2011 at 6:41 AM by IJoe

#71960

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

My reason that swayed my mind was because I couldn't find any other activated ability that didn't signal its activation.
whats fair is fair, and I believe either way you will still achieve your goals upon activation.

but yeah joe theres a lot of whining on here from these random players with questionable motives, you just have to decipher the legitimate from the bogus.
Soviet is OP
#71961

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

RedGuard wrote:
My reason that swayed my mind was because I couldn't find any other activated ability that didn't signal its activation.
whats fair is fair, and I believe either way you will still achieve your goals upon activation.

but yeah joe theres a lot of whining on here from these random players with questionable motives, you just have to decipher the legitimate from the bogus.

me wrote: ...axis "instant resources" aren't visible (if I remember correctly)...
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#71962

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

resource blitz isn't signaled upon activation, you're correct. but blitz doctrine as a whole is fukd and needs to be reworked dont get me started on that. whole other discussion :)

like 1 CP blitz nades which are now obscene
Soviet is OP
#71964

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

So back to the topic...

Quoteyou should've been set up if he can amass an army of cons, TH's and NI you should've had more than 3 STUHs


How could you have known that? That's exactly the thing I did.

I identify as a four-eyed bird man. /s

Last edited May 30, 2011 at 8:40 AM by walki1

#71966

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

unless you were making a lot of mistakes and losing stuff, the numbers led me to that conclusion

4 conscripts = 896MP
2NI=720mp
2TH=560mp
total = 2176MP LOL

so that blob cost over 2,176MP - wehr needs but a tiny fraction of that to utterly annihilate a mindless blob of infantry

im watching the replay now

Post Merge: [time]1306703145[/time]

Now its clear why you lost, it had nothing to do with the red tide. you never retreated MG teams even when down to 1 man and NO health, you let them die why? you built 8 Mg teams probably more

I stopped watching after your teammate started driving his AC's into AT guns like they weren't there

sloppy play
Soviet is OP

Last edited May 30, 2011 at 9:07 AM by RedGuard

#71971

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Didn't you see that my MG's and pak's were always killed by those sniperteams?
I identify as a four-eyed bird man. /s
#71975

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

I'm downloading the replay...I wanna see that giga-blob slaughter. :P
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#71976

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

It's not that big. I just thought the units at the middle VP were from the player on my side :p.
I identify as a four-eyed bird man. /s
#71985

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

If only we could use CoHO features in the current game, the little icons under the units would've been great to use. :)

EF's Red Tide and CoHO's Infantry Attrition seem to be very close, but in CoHO it is literally put up as being Allied War Machine for Infantry (so lower cost, but a max number of infantry).

Under Red Tide, I see no problem with limiting the number of infantry, if the weakest units die first, then the commander that used the ability either used it wrong, or the enemy commander made the smart choice by targeting them first. :)
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#71988

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

RedGuard wrote:
resource blitz isn't signaled upon activation, you're correct. but blitz doctrine as a whole is fukd and needs to be reworked dont get me started on that. whole other discussion :)

like 1 CP blitz nades which are now obscene

Well, since no one ever going to touch this and many other "sacred cows" of wehrmaht (one word - "vanilla", it says it all), I see no point in nerfing RT, since it never been, nor is OP, especially compared to wehrmaht abilities.
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#71990

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Assault nades are disgusting and need a massive nerf. They should go back to the old days of no stun but good damage. Stun is incredibly lame and abusive.

Hands up anyone who ever goes down the RHS of blitz. Nobody? Didn't think so.

Red tide doesn't need nerfing at all. This thread has reached its end I think. An effect will be added next patch, that is all.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#71992

Re: [[IP address redacted]] The Red Tide

Good last post.
*closed*
I identify as a four-eyed bird man. /s