Is that a SU-76 in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

First of - great patch. You've accomplished a great deal of things. However I noticed something which looked very off. The brand new SU-76 is absolutely massive. It's as large as a KV-1 tank!

The actual measurements for the SU-76 are as follows:

Length 4.88 m (16 ft .01 in)
Width 2.73 m (8 ft 11.5)
Height 2.17 m (7 ft 1.4 in)

The KV-1 measurements are as follows:

Length 6.75 m
Width 3.32 m
Height 2.71 m

The SU-76 should be nowhere near the KV-1, or any other regular tank. The description even says it's based on the T-70 chassis, which is much, much smaller on the ingame T-70.

Not to mention it looks really strange after haven driven one in World of Tanks for the past two weeks.

We already know this :). Will be fixed later, it's not priority so there are no date for when this will be fixed.

blackbishop wrote:
We already know this :). Will be fixed later, it's not priority so there are no date for when this will be fixed.

But isn't the size of the model in the game fixed rather easily?
I don't know for sure (never got my interest in that), but I think, there are model size parameters in corsix, that can be changed in a blink of an eye.

If you don't mind me asking, why is it too big in the first place?

Whoever made it didn't resize it properly is all. We didn't have the ability to resize it ourselves until very recently, it will probably be resized in the next patch.

IJoe wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
We already know this :). Will be fixed later, it's not priority so there are no date for when this will be fixed.

But isn't the size of the model in the game fixed rather easily?
I don't know for sure (never got my interest in that), but I think, there are model size parameters in corsix, that can be changed in a blink of an eye.

I hope that would as easy as you make it sound :-\... For every object you resize (that's made in 3ds Max) you need to animate it again (in OE, don't know if in 3dMax you will need to).

It's a hard and consuming job.

Last edited May 27, 2011 at 12:02 AM by blackbishop

Indeed, it is why no-one really cares about resizing the Marder 3 or Hellcat.

I haven't really seen the SU-76 in-game yet, but depending on its size, it might just be another "relic model" ;)

Wait... So relic themselves didn't even bother to get the sizes right?! :o I always thought the Tiger looked too small...

pariah wrote:
Wait... So relic themselves didn't even bother to get the sizes right?! :o I always thought the Tiger looked too small...

Relic models arent perfect ;) Most of them had small and illogical mistakes; Take the King Tiger: One track roller is missing, the command turret is wrong and "tank commander" is sitting in loader's door. And this is just one example xD

SU-76 is too big. So it is planed to be fixed. And till it is fixed u can see this as an funny tribute for Relic xDDD

Not wanting to give you guys more work to do, but are you planning on fixing any of the relic models at any point in the future?

pariah wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, why is it too big in the first place?

Do people like their tank destroyers being big?
Marders, Hellcats and now SU-76.

Paciat wrote:

pariah wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, why is it too big in the first place?

Do people like their tank destroyers being big?
Marders, Hellcats and now SU-76.

Marder did look off scale. Never seen one in real life but it looks huge still.
Pershing I think can be shrunken, too. I don't remember the one I stood next to at a museum being that big.

the Pershing, afaic, has an incorrect turret placement that someone already fixed (and even added a tank commander to it!), I don't mind the size at all and I think it fits quite nicely.

German Panther tank vs M26 Pershing - The Battle of Köln

Not sure if it'd be useful for size comparison, but it's something :P

(oh wow auto-embed, didn't know this!)

BurroDiablo wrote:
Whoever made it didn't resize it properly is all. We didn't have the ability to resize it ourselves until very recently, it will probably be resized in the next patch.

I made it :) . And i resised it to a size that Dark could animate it and get a crew inside it, As it was we had to drop the DP28 and gunner from it because it was too crowded in the crew compartment, I could get it redone for you, if you can get me relic vehical crews that are 25% smaller. But i dont think thats going to happen. In reality it should be a fraction smaller then a marder III which it is, Unfortunatly relics marder III is oversized aswell again because of the crew size.

Now if your not happy with it you could drop it from the mod :) .

And if you think its oversized, then unfortunatly the BA-64 Sweeten has animated for you will also comes into that catogory. It has a staghound wheelbase size and is scaled accordingly. Hence id estimate it to be at least 20% larger then it should be. But at least at that size the gunners hands and arms dont cut through the sides of the model when hes firing ect.

Sorry and all that but it is a problem that has been with us forever. Crewed vehicals are entirely dependant on the size of relics vehical crews when it come to scale.

I think the only ones thats anywhere near right so far are those based entirely on relics origional models, ie M3 Halftrack variants ive made, and most of those are probebly wrong because most of relics models are oversized. Examples are M18 M26 Geshutz Wagon Marder III & the wolverine.

Some of you will say well halftracks wesp is the right size. Is it ? Look at it closley ingame, the crew compartment belongs to the marder III so how did he get it smaller. Simple the marder III has a large deep crew compartment with high sloped sides & with some room to spare. The su76 doesnt have that luxury, theres junk lying around it inside like storage lockers and boxes all over the place. Unless someone figures out how to get the infantry to scale down during animation, or someone reanimates all the vehical crews and rescales them, in which case youd have to rescale half the vehicals too ie marder geshutz m18 and wolverine then the problem is going to persist.

How can the vehicles be too big if the crew won't fit otherwise? ??? That must mean the people in the game are too big as well, right?

blackbishop wrote:

IJoe wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
We already know this :). Will be fixed later, it's not priority so there are no date for when this will be fixed.

But isn't the size of the model in the game fixed rather easily?
I don't know for sure (never got my interest in that), but I think, there are model size parameters in corsix, that can be changed in a blink of an eye.

I hope that would as easy as you make it sound :-\... For every object you resize (that's made in 3ds Max) you need to animate it again (in OE, don't know if in 3dMax you will need to).

It's a hard and consuming job.

You are correct, and youd also have to resize the entire crew, to fit the animation that you are going to have to resize to match your vehical, then you are going to have to reanimate the whole thing from scratch reasign all the markers and bones, plus not to mention the fact that you will have to use the origional file i have, because if you dont, the whole model will unweld and unsmoothe and the uv will slip down and right,the second you import it. Rewelding it and resmoothing it alone correctly would take an age.Not to mention rewelding and repositioning the uvmap back to where its supposed to be.

Also while im here i never noticed before, but where have the wheels and destroyed tracks gone from the wreck, someone miss a line in the abp ?, or did DB forget them when animating, plus if they were there the wreck would still be imitating a hovercraft and be too far off the ground.

The wreck should look like this .....




But it doesnt :(  .

@pariah

Yes they are im sorry to say that relics origional release was correct building and vehical wise if you look at the scales, apart from the pershing they are pretty near. The problem was when they made opposing fronts, and added PE and British a differant team of modellers and animators were used, Hence the discrepancys in sizes.

Then when the geshutz and hotchkiss were added for tov they found that the infantry they had were too big to fit in the vehical without cutting through the sides of the vehical when moving, the simple solution was to upscale the vehical, which appears to be what they did.

Last edited June 14, 2011 at 10:32 PM by DMz

:o What a pleasant surprise!! How have you been DMz ;D!! I hope you are fine.

the abp has this lines:

"SU76",
	"SU76_Driver",
	"..\\..\\Common\\Vehicles\\Driver",

but there's one more group of files who's rgo/rgm isn't included:

"SU76_custom_anims",

Shall we add it to the abp ????

^^Looks like someone's excited to see an old friend. ;D

blackbishop wrote:
:o What a pleasant surprise!! How have you been DMz ;D!! I hope you are fine.

the abp has this lines:

"SU76",
	"SU76_Driver",
	"..\\..\\Common\\Vehicles\\Driver",

but there's one more group of files who's rgo/rgm isn't included:

"SU76_custom_anims",

Shall we add it to the abp ????

Hi m8 :)

Ill try get hold of DB and see what those lines are, maybe you could get hold of Sweeten, too as hes not been around on xfie, he did a lot of the initial testing and may remember if the wreck was as it should have been .Or what perameters he added if it was correct when he tested it :) .

So Brit and PE soldiers are actually larger than Wehr and US? What have they been feeding those Panzer soldiers and Brits? :P

its the vehical crew scales & vehical scales that are wrong, the actual pe and brit infantry are the same skeleton size as before, thats why when you put the gunner into the stuart recce i made he looks tiny :/

Ill elaborate. The gunner we used on the stuart recce came from the default halftrack as did the 50 cal, the anims used on tjhe vehical and a large part of the vehical, came from the stuart. The stuart is oversize ingame, so the gunner looks small, However on the opposing fronts marder III the crew space is small, so to accomodate the crew relic made the model oversized, to be honest a lot too much oversized, they could have got away with a 15% overscale,instead of the 25% to 30% which it looks like they did use. Hence the SU76 has to fit a standard relic crew in it, okay with differant uniform but it is a relic crew. So unless we want to scale all the animations, which i dont believe can be done without a rediculous amount of work. Were stuck with doing what relic did, which is over sizing the vehical itself.

Last edited June 15, 2011 at 4:19 AM by DMz

I took this screen shot of PE's Wirblewind and Pz IVD. Both vehicles and crews appear to me to be the same scale. You can check to see the attributes I suppose. When I worked with CAD we occasionally used  a model sized 1.25:1 and then rescaled the whole thing down to 1:1. I don't know if this would work with the animations though.

It would be really nice to have properly scaled Tank Killers though. Less of a target/easier to set up an ambush.

You really should've gone LHS to make use of those munitions rather than get nash. Just sayin' :P.

I have also just thought of this, with the scaling of infantry, if you scaled them down you would have to also have to scale all of the infantry firearms down. If you compare the size of the 50. cal compared to the infantry it also supports that the infantry are too big so the only other alternative to re-animating all of the infantry is to re-scale the maps and vehicles that are too small for the infantry. Either way its a long and boaring method to make a vehicle without infantry animations cutting into a model.

Sorry guys, but i'm afraid your CoH's SU-76 will not be able to fit in your pocket, let say for all the eternity ;D.

blackbishop wrote:
Sorry guys, but i'm afraid your CoH's SU-76 will not be able to fit in your pocket, let say for all the eternity ;D.

So it's not being resized in the next update :( itll be kinda weird when ever i put it next to a T-90 and find it to be twice the size

Raider217 wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
Sorry guys, but i'm afraid your CoH's SU-76 will not be able to fit in your pocket, let say for all the eternity ;D.

So it's not being resized in the next update :( itll be kinda weird when ever i put it next to a T-90 and find it to be twice the size

Nope :). You can try to live with that as you do with the other oversized tanks on CoH ;D. Perhaps a workaround could be found for this, but not for the next update.

DMz wrote:
@blackbishop

You are correct, and youd also have to resize the entire crew, to fit the animation that you are going to have to resize to match your vehical, then you are going to have to reanimate the whole thing from scratch reasign all the markers and bones, plus not to mention the fact that you will have to use the origional file i have, because if you dont, the whole model will unweld and unsmoothe and the uv will slip down and right,the second you import it. Rewelding it and resmoothing it alone correctly would take an age.Not to mention rewelding and repositioning the uvmap back to where its supposed to be.


@pariah

Yes they are im sorry to say that relics origional release was correct building and vehical wise if you look at the scales, apart from the pershing they are pretty near. The problem was when they made opposing fronts, and added PE and British a differant team of modellers and animators were used, Hence the discrepancys in sizes.

Then when the geshutz and hotchkiss were added for tov they found that the infantry they had were too big to fit in the vehical without cutting through the sides of the vehical when moving, the simple solution was to upscale the vehical, which appears to be what they did.

Here is the proportion of the SU-76 to a crew man
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/russia/su76_marjorana3.jpg

Well, in a strict point of view the crew man / SU-76 proportion in EF is relatively the same :P.

No in my point of view, i think the SU-76 model in the mod compare to the one in the picture is a little bit longer. As you can see in the realife picture
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/imgs/su76.jpg

Nope, relatively it is. What i mean is that the difference between the sizes of a human and the SU-76 in the picture is proportional to the crew member and it's SU-76 in EF.

No one said EF's SU-76 was at the same size than it's RL counterpart ::).

I have a small suggestion to solve this problem:



Just close the body using a canvas. No soldiers are visible, so no proportion problems and SU-76 doesn't look that odd anymore.
Thoughts?

MaxiKing6 wrote:
I have a small suggestion to solve this problem:



Just close the body using a canvas. No soldiers are visible, so no proportion problems and SU-76 doesn't look that odd anymore.
Thoughts?

That's a good idea but you'd need to remodel :D

Not at all, I think you just need to add that canvas thingy and resize the model and then re-export it. Am I right?

Good for Winter fighting. And sleeping on the job. ;D

Yes, you are right, this is the planned solution, however will need to wait because BurroDiablo is busy with other stuff :).

Haha ok, so I hit the point :P

It would solve the problem but its basically what i had before i was asked to make it open top ???????  it would also mean completly reanimating and im not sure i can talk my animator into that tbh.......

maybe with the canvas we can re-add the DP mg that was cut out as well

DMz wrote:
It would solve the problem but its basically what i had before i was asked to make it open top ???????  it would also mean completly reanimating and im not sure i can talk my animator into that tbh.......

We could ask to Hartkeks or Tiger to animate it :).

IF you could, that would be awesome.

Are the folks working on the Ostheer HT upgrade to Flak38 aware of the scaling issues/solutions being presented in this thread?

I think that the SU-76's size should be reduced to as big as the T-34 and its main gun to.