[1.4.0.0.] Penal squad: why is it discarded in 1.4?

blackbishop wrote:
...Penal Troops were discarded for 1.40.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/coheastern-front#comments

To say, that I am shocked by this recent revelation, is to say nothing at all.
This unit was the backbone of any no-support/tank rush build. Moreover, it had a lot of nonequivalent uses and purposes to any other unit, such as non-support (no strelky) early re-crew/capture, some more or less decent sniper hunt (7 rifles and one ppsh is not to be compared to 4 rifles of conscripts, nor would one be eager to use his CS for such a slippery task).
Basically, it was the main killing unit, unless you go for fast strelky and start that stupid blobbing, which I, personally, hate the most (let alone, that strelky are shit and not worth their price, IMO).
Now we got this "fix"! I recall there was a problem with them not being unsuppressible, as they should've been... Nice way of "fixing" issues, guys, real nice!
Yeah, I recall people crying out about snipers having too much health, and katiushas coming too early, and I suppose, these issues are definitely addressed in 1.4, but what is that about excluding penals from the RA?
Give us some proper reasoning, please. I bet, I'm not the only one out here (among people who actually play as SU, at least some significant percentage of their games), who would like to receive some most broad explanation to such a major change to SU early development.
Thanks in advance.

Last edited June 1, 2011 at 12:45 PM by IJoe

greeting comrade, they have been removed because the general concensus was they were not used and were broken in many ways. I believe this is the official reasoning; wait for a balance exp or dev to back me up

un-officially my thoughts:
the gulag gang were never very competitive, more a liability with the lack of retreat. plus i think the changes to molotovs are actually more practical and effective now as an armoury upgrade than being on the penal squads.

penals could be supressed and couldnt retreat. better players would always exploit this if you lost squads like that to abuse the game will be over very fast. thus they werent used.

but you never know they may be salvaged and added somewhere else sometime. i know the whole team was very sad to see the commissar gone

RedGuard wrote:
greeting comrade, they have been removed because the general concensus was they were not used and were broken in many ways. I believe this is the official reasoning; wait for a balance exp or dev to back me up

un-officially my thoughts:
the gulag gang were never very competitive, more a liability with the lack of retreat. plus i think the changes to molotovs are actually more practical and effective now as an armoury upgrade than being on the penal squads.

penals could be supressed and couldnt retreat. better players would always exploit this if you lost squads like that to abuse the game will be over very fast. thus they werent used.

but you never know they may be salvaged and added somewhere else sometime. i know the whole team was very sad to see the commissar gone

Well, I can argue, that
1) I myself have found the way to fix their main "bug", and have sent my suggestions on that issue to the dev. team (that's not to mention, that Blackbishop said, that one of the devs, named Crasius, have found a way to fix that issue as well, perhaps in some even better way, than I did),
2) They historically consisted mainly of "convicted" military staff, usually of officer rank, so they cannot be addressed as some non-trained felony criminals (I can provide documentary sources on that issue, if needed).
Thus, this infantry unit, highly resistant to suppression, could prove to be the best counter to axis hmgs, especially early on.

Last edited May 18, 2011 at 7:22 AM by IJoe

IJoe wrote:

RedGuard wrote:
greeting comrade, they have been removed because the general concensus was they were not used and were broken in many ways. I believe this is the official reasoning; wait for a balance exp or dev to back me up

un-officially my thoughts:
the gulag gang were never very competitive, more a liability with the lack of retreat. plus i think the changes to molotovs are actually more practical and effective now as an armoury upgrade than being on the penal squads.

penals could be supressed and couldnt retreat. better players would always exploit this if you lost squads like that to abuse the game will be over very fast. thus they werent used.

but you never know they may be salvaged and added somewhere else sometime. i know the whole team was very sad to see the commissar gone

Well, I can argue, that
1) I myself found the way to fix their main "bug", and have sent my suggestions on that issue to the dev. team,
2) They historically consisted mainly of "convicted" military staff, usually of officer rank, so they cannot be addressed as some non-trained felony criminals (I can provide documentary sources on that issue, if needed).
Thus, this infantry unit, highly resistant to suppression, could prove to be the best counter to axis hmgs, especially early on.

Fair enough comrade, but the decision is not my own. You will have to appeal to the higher ups

I actually agree they should stay. However the devs had previously decided if naval infantry were included, the penals would be ditched. The current Molotov upgrade is still functional and works fine for the removal of MGs. They still represent a valid teching choice for a vehicle rush.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I actually agree they should stay. However the devs had previously decided if naval infantry were included, the penals would be ditched. The current Molotov upgrade is still functional and works fine for the removal of MGs. They still represent a valid teching choice for a vehicle rush.

Frankly, I see no connection whatsoever between a doctrinal call-in, and a regular unit. And, as I've mentioned before, there's no real comparison to be made between 4 rifles, and 7 rifles and 1 ppsh + unsuppressibility.
The removal of such troops, as they should've become after the fix, on the other hand, contributes to making the faction more poor on tactical behalf, which I find rather sad.

All this aside, thanks for your opinion and some additional info input.

Last edited May 18, 2011 at 10:17 AM by IJoe

I vote for their exclusion.

Motivation...I'll not write it because I will start a flame.

We're currently discussing the possibility of allowing the conscripts to have their full weapon sets and also unsuppressibility in a variety of ways. This topic should probably be closed but don't worry, we are thinking of a way to keep the conscript scaling abilites.

OK, I'll close it up for now.

I think, it's alright to open it now - nice change and a breath of a fresh air from those infinite "buff my Tiger Ace" threads ;)

Keep voting! Keep writing!

Last edited June 1, 2011 at 12:49 PM by IJoe

I think they would much more fit to the Propaganda Strategy than the Naval Infantry. Penals could take their place and NI could replace Partisans as a reward unit...thats my 2 cents.

Well, i don't think they will return, however I'm working trying to make possible to add the nkvd officer as part of vet 1.

• Vet1: Extra weapons + promotion of a commissar (don't know if the commissar should have a mosin or a toned down ppsh or a normal ppsh)


• Vet2: Capture Heavy weapons (I think i've nailed it but it's too soon to start the party, need to do more tests)


• Vet 3: Unsuppressable

Of course, no matter if my results are positive, they need to be discussed before being integrated :).

blackbishop wrote:
Well, i don't think they will return, however I'm working trying to make possible to add the nkvd officer as part of vet 1.

• Vet1: Extra weapons + promotion of a commissar (don't know if the commissar should have a mosin or a toned down ppsh or a normal ppsh)


• Vet2: Capture Heavy weapons (I think i've nailed it but it's too soon to start the party, need to do more tests)


• Vet 3: Unsuppressable

Of course, no matter if my results are positive, they need to be discussed before being integrated :).

Well thats sad, but i dont think that vet system should give them all the advantages. I think that better solution would be their upgrage to NKVD Conscripts again. And i would suggest that the comissar should have the Tokarev TT pistol instead of a sub-machine gun or a rifle...but just my thoughts anyway...

Strayker wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
Well, i don't think they will return, however I'm working trying to make possible to add the nkvd officer as part of vet 1.

• Vet1: Extra weapons + promotion of a commissar (don't know if the commissar should have a mosin or a toned down ppsh or a normal ppsh)


• Vet2: Capture Heavy weapons (I think i've nailed it but it's too soon to start the party, need to do more tests)


• Vet 3: Unsuppressable

Of course, no matter if my results are positive, they need to be discussed before being integrated :).

Well thats sad, but i dont think that vet system should give them all the advantages. I think that better solution would be their upgrage to NKVD Conscripts again. And i would suggest that the comissar should have the Tokarev TT pistol instead of a sub-machine gun or a rifle...but just my thoughts anyway...

I though that as a valid choice as well, because the animator already has the pistol added. But as all of them use mosin and the previous nkvd used ppsh... all in all sounds like a good idea.

call back  THE "Execute a member of the squad to break supression. Their bullets, or ours"

Im guessing the penal units were the Shtra-whatever infantry?

I too wish they would have kept this unit, I no longer have a use for Conscripts, considering they removed the Trench System also, unless I need an in expensive unit (as far as popcap goes) to capture points.