[[IP address redacted]] The nerfs of SU, that I would consider appropriate

Hi all!

I know, that many people here consider me as a SU fanboi. This faulty opinion, however, doesn't reflect my view of the game, and the mod in its entirety. I do believe that balance needs to be achieved. The problem is the ways people are suggesting it should be done.
So here are some of my thoughts on how to make the game more fair for axis players:
1) Obviously (IMO), PE infantry is fragile due to the low number of squad members. That surely shows on their longevity, and definitely shortens their lifetime on the battlefield. Since changing their stats is not the option (nor should it be), I would suggest, that elimination of certain units, such as strelky, TH, and weapon crews would give 'em a little more experience points, so they could improve their stats a bit quicker,
2) I would suggest putting a build limit of three at a time for conscripts, since rarely a player should need more, otherwise he's just blobbing, which isn't good. Probably some other build limits are viable for other infantry types, but that's up for further research, IMO.
3)  Snipers' arty is a bit out of time ATM IMO. It should be available far later. Like after the additional armory research, or when both SB and TH are built.

That's all for now. Thanks for your attention.

Some feedback would be nice. I would like to ask you, however, not to rage-post here, and to keep the point you make well described and fallowed by proper argumentation. Meaning posts like "I don't like it", or "FTW!" would be a bit out of place.

Last edited May 1, 2011 at 9:11 PM by blackbishop

I'll start by saying that SU balance is actually very good, dont get so wrapped up in low level players complaining about balance joe. they're a dime a dozen, just check out relics official forums. thank god the mods/devs dont listen to all those crazys posting there

A few minor stats changes here and there and thats it.

I'm against any kind of build limit, if a player cant stop "spam" it isnt the unit its the players ability.

Last edited May 1, 2011 at 4:16 PM by REDcommissar

I agree with REDcommissar - Unit limits should only apply to the special units, like the really heavy tanks. I don't think a limit on Conscripts is a good idea.

I like your suggestion #1. Perhaps a slight increment on the xp points given could be useful. For the number 3... You will love the new sniper arty ;D!! I don't know if it's requirements need to be changed though.

blackbishop wrote:
I like your suggestion #1. Perhaps a slight increment on the xp points given could be useful.

Not really considering SU infantry has the lowest hitpoints in the game, you'd be handing XP in record amounts to your opponent. Not like we aren't already.

conscripts die in droves so do tank hunters and strelky as well, why increase the XP given? sounds like a disaster :(
conscripts are already getting a HP nerf, MG's will wipe any SU infantry in seconds, so will volks with or without mp40. the manpower drain alone is more than enough punishment.
A strong breeze and SU infantry fall over

you can't break a determined entrenched axis player with infantry, you need some kind of arty or sniper support. So increasing their XP given seems to be a moot point.

Lets not go overboard with the SU nerf crusade, minor corrections are needed nothing more. I believe these changes are already being implemented, the only balance issues I see is with the sharpshooter, the t90, and the su85 always penetrating. Thats it - and they're receiving many more nerfs than this already.

The focus should actually be on tying up all of the Soviets loose ends, like overpriced armoury upgrades and useless doctrine abilitys.

Last edited May 1, 2011 at 6:42 PM by REDcommissar

@RedCommissar:
Hmgs and folks are wehr - they don't receive any individual vet. Not sure if the abilities (doctrinal) would be coming to early for them though.
Additionally, conscripts are not to be a part of that feature, Strelky are really strong in masses, so a slight increase in xp gained for them wouldn't be that much of a disaster, TH are not to be used blindly - they are a special purpose unit after all. I'd also add "hold fire" option to TH, no matter if they are hidden or not.

Last edited May 1, 2011 at 6:51 PM by IJoe

My Comrade I humbly ask you to consider:

IJoe wrote:

the abilities (doctrinal) would be coming to early for them though.

+1

the rate at which doc abiltys are gained was never in question, why increase it?

IJoe wrote:
Strelky are really strong in masses, so a slight increase in xp gained for them wouldn't be that much of a disaster,

But theres no need for this change, nothing here is unbalanced. if you build strelky en masse your population is crippled, and your AT ability is delayed/handicapped, it balances itself. We should avoid making changes like this for the sake of making changes. Its counter-productive

sharpshooters, t90's, and su85s are the only things I see that need to be re worked. If these things were fixed SU would be perfecto! :)

Last edited May 1, 2011 at 7:12 PM by REDcommissar

@RedCommissar:
You're right, but maybe there's a way to do it (1st suggestion) separately for PE only through some experience multiplier.

IJoe wrote:
TH are not to be used blindly - they are a special purpose unit after all. I'd also add "hold fire" option to TH, no matter if they are hidden or not.

+1
That's actually a good idea. It would make THs appear more like this special purpose unit that u mentioned. If a noob player sees that the unit has more abilities, he wouldn't send it send it directly into the enemy lines. Moreover, it increases the tactical usefulness of the THs.

This suggestion sounds to me more like a buff to the Panzer Elite, rather than a nerf to the Soviet Union...

Also, what would be the point of ordering the Tank Hunters to hold fire?

pariah wrote:
This suggestion sounds to me more like a buff to the Panzer Elite, rather than a nerf to the Soviet Union...

Also, what would be the point of ordering the Tank Hunters to hold fire?

Balance is A=B, no matter if you -A, or +B to achieve it.
Hold fire in PvP would be plenty useful, since TH wouldn't draw attention to themselves immediately after they encounter any enemy within their sight radius, 'cause players aren't everywhere at the same time, and they do have to rely on warnings' system, which wouldn't appear in that case.

Yeah, but i thought this was suggestions for Soviet nerfs, not Panzer Elite buffs.

But Tank Hunters aren't anything special, are they? I mean, if it's just to avoid attention, surely all units with auto-fire should have that ability, no?

the way I'm interpreting it is a request for a hold fire on TH because of their 'ambush' nature. they camo in cover but fire/give away their position if 'baited' by infantry.

Oh, so they're like Fallschirmjäger?

pariah wrote:
Oh, so they're like Fallschirmjäger?

They pretty much  should be, considering their cost (eight pop(!) for four men - WTF?)

2 Each? That's not too much. Knights Cross Holders, for example.

But anyway, yeah, hold fire could come in handy in that case. Don't think it's too important, though.

Dennis said that the pop cost of the Tank Hunters is normalized now in the internal beta... so forget about considerating this as part of the discussion ;D.

Version tags please ;D.

Last edited May 1, 2011 at 8:58 PM by blackbishop

I think it's pretty safe to assume IJoe is using the current version. ;)

Rules are for a reason and the rule says that every post on this section must have version tags. But for this time I'll put the tag ;).

blackbishop wrote:
Rules are for a reason and the rule says that every post on this section must have version tags. But for this time I'll put the tag ;).

Thanks.
I just never came to remembering that  :-[

About bullshxt posts: guys, please don't do that. It really makes a topic hardly readable. For that kind of posts there are separate threads (like "random word game" etc.)

To which posts do you refer, IJoe? ;)

IJoe wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
Rules are for a reason and the rule says that every post on this section must have version tags. But for this time I'll put the tag ;).

Thanks.
I just never came to remembering that  :-[

About bullshxt posts: guys, please don't do that. It really makes a topic hardly readable. For that kind of posts there are separate threads (like "random word game" etc.)

Neither do I :-[.

IJoe wrote:
Not sure if the abilities (doctrinal) would be coming to early for them though.

I'd like to point out that the experience used to give unit veterancy and to unlock doctrines are separate. Therefore your solution can actually be a viable buff to PE. If the T2 SU units were to give more unit xp this can only benefit PE which is a good thing. It would not increase the rate you unlock doctrines.

Nice idea.

As for the other solutions, I don't like them.

Nice to hear it ;D!

+1

Really, this thread needs some attention.

& nice to see a thread like that from you, IJoe, hopefully more guys who consider you as a soviet fanboi will see it. & It does show your will to make this game balanced.

Suggestion 1) and 3) are very good points.

First thing im trying to get with PE playing EF is the squard size upgrade, to dam this issue.
The 3) one is a well known issue and its very very obvious, actually its the most outstanding balance problem the SU has at the moment.



Regards,
-V-

Somehow I would say that I'm a very good PE player and I still think the SU is overpowerd. You need to think about that: Strelky 280 MP (6 men) and my PE Grenadiers 255 MP (3 men). I always get overrun by soviets because I'm not able to do anything against a conscript & command squad at the beginning (for standart res) normally I meet the soviet player with 2 Grenadiers squad, but they don't care they rush me and I lose my sqauds or I'm forced to retreat and lose a lot of control points. In vCoH this never happend.

My first upgrade as Panzer Elite is always Increased Squad Sizes, and my second is always Defensive Operations.

QuoteMy first upgrade as Panzer Elite is always Increased Squad Sizes, and my second is always Defensive Operations.

If you say that then the SU will go on Sniper when playing against you :P. So that's your suggestion always playing the same stragey?

build a scout car, or use your kettens  :P

I always do that versus Yanks and Brits, but obviously i don't know what you should do versus Soviets. I assume it wouldn't be too much different. I just find buffing my infantry as much as possible to be the best strategy, until i can tech up to tanks.

I occasionally use Scout Cars to secure territory, but usually only if i can fit it in a corner somewhere.

walki1 wrote:
So that's your suggestion always playing the same stragey?

Soviets allways are infantry heavy at the start. Youll have scout cars that are better than bikes and halftracks that can reinforce and cost no fuel.

What? I think the Infantry Halftracks are something like 20 or 30 Fuel aren't they? :-\

Anyway, we are getting quite off-topic...

He means munitions halftrack. In the next vCoH patch this feature will be added but It's already in EF.