Quick Guards idea [1.3.1]

I just watched a quick 15min replay:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5696.0
Theres some constript spamming, early map control and then a very quick T-90 without building T-2.
I would like to see a possibility to build quick Guards alongside quick armor to but they also need any T-2 upgrade. I dont think that 35 fuel earlier Guards will break the game ballance but it will give a Soviet player a chance to suprise his oponent with a 3rd rare choice of teching (similar to US quick T4 or WH T-1, T-3). It will only work with large map control.
Right now skipping Strelky, all T-2 units and the Medic Truck isnt worth its 320MP/35fuel price. Its too risky to use only contripts.

Hey just noticed ist my 1000 post! Im Mr. Spam. 8) ;D

Last edited April 23, 2011 at 7:57 AM by Paciat

Quick Guards FTW!

Happy 1000th post, Paciat!  ;)

cephalos wrote:
Quick Guards FTW!

Happy 1000th post, Paciat!  ;)

+1

Sounds like a nice alternative teching idea.

Soz mate, I disagree with this idea.

I quick T3 in lots of games using strafynie, or sturmovie as my in-between infantry. I don't think guards are necessary. The armoury upgrades give lots of flexibility. You lack AT but you get the best light vehicles so it's a tradeoff.

Paciat wrote:
I just watched a quick 15min replay:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5696.0
Theres some constript spamming, early map control and then a very quick T-90 without building T-2.
I would like to see a possibility to build quick Guards alongside quick armor to but they also need any T-2 upgrade. I dont think that 35 fuel earlier Guards will break the game ballance but it will give a Soviet player a chance to suprise his oponent with a 3rd rare choice of teching (similar to US quick T4 or WH T-1, T-3). It will only work with large map control.
Right now skipping Strelky, all T-2 units and the Medic Truck isnt worth its 320MP/35fuel price. Its too risky to use only contripts.

Hey just noticed ist my 1000 post! Im Mr. Spam. 8) ;D

Hm well. Which upgrade would you propose?
Currently they cost like ~ 600mp 150 fuel to unlock. Which is justified. They get strong grenades without costs, are nearly unsuppressable and have extremely high health and quite decent damage output.

I don't have an idea how it would fuck up balance if they would arrive earlier than they're arriving now. I got enough problems to deal with upgraded strelkys + command squad as wehr during the midgame.

I can't even imagine how fucked up it would be if my enemy got grenades to flank my mgs even easier than it is now for him :/

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Soz mate, I disagree with this idea.

I quick T3 in lots of games using strafynie, or sturmovie as my in-between infantry. I don't think guards are necessary. The armoury upgrades give lots of flexibility. You lack AT but you get the best light vehicles so it's a tradeoff.

Agree with Dennis, I think it will be quite OP. ;)

TS should really add "I don't know" option to the poll. That would be my choice.

OT: have you, people, heard any word about when this damn 2.7 patch is gonna finally see the light?

Paciat wrote:
Hey just noticed ist my 1000 post! Im Mr. Spam. 8) ;D

Very Nicely done! :D

As for your idea, I like it. I find myself having to go T-2 JUST FOR STRELKY, because conscripts can't hold the line against Grens or Pgrens in groups.

I think it could potentially be abused, however. My vote goes "FTW" but I'm not entirely proof positive that this will be happily accepted or it won't be OP.

I've been making posts about this, Guards do need to come quicker if only by a few minutes. Its completely balanced and adds more depth to a unique style of play as well as pseudo tech path.

You shouldnt be required to make that tier 2 tech FOR NO REASON. the other races DONT have to only soviets are penalized like this

Its one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time

+1 faster guards

Last edited April 23, 2011 at 7:57 PM by REDcommissar

they would only come sooner by a couple of minutes... IF THAT

anyway Im not so much for reducing their cost or making them OP but I think skipping SU tier 2 and going straight to guards should be a viable tactic
I dont like required tier 2 for guards  :(
thats all

Frankly, I think shtrafnye will do just fine instead, if you're teching for fast armor. Man, I love these guys :)

IJoe wrote:
Frankly, I think shtrafnye will do just fine instead, if you're teching for fast armor. Man, I love these guys :)

While they are quite useful indeed, they're easily outclassed by Guards. (Depends how you're using them to outclass, strelky unupgraded still have more powerful rifles)

Cranialwizard wrote:

IJoe wrote:
Frankly, I think shtrafnye will do just fine instead, if you're teching for fast armor. Man, I love these guys :)

While they are quite useful indeed, they're easily outclassed by Guards. (Depends how you're using them to outclass, strelky unupgraded still have more powerful rifles)

That's what I call "captain obviousness"  ;D
You're right...
I'm just saying, that, in skillful hands, these guys bring miracles to life!

Haven't used them in a while :P

I just find RBS to be the better unit, even Sturmovie Ingenery are better than Shtrafnye as they're more versatile and PPSH-41'd rather than "ALL 8 RIFLES, AIM"

It's an upgrade that's under-used and it does well for conscripts but even late game it just won't cut it in some cases, as their full potential starts to even out at mid-game.

If shtrafnye could retreat they'd have a permanent spot on my roster. Other than that I consider them a gimmick tactic, which I try to avoid
gimmicks come with a DIE HARD fine print, and if im going to lose Id rather be simply outplayed instead of exploited

having said that I've fought them before in pvp and they can be very effective. If only this old dog could learn new tricks :)

Last edited April 24, 2011 at 5:53 AM by REDcommissar

dArCReAvEr wrote:
I don't have an idea how it would fuck up balance if they would arrive earlier than they're arriving now. I got enough problems to deal with upgraded strelkys + command squad as wehr during the midgame.

Actually my Idea was that you can trade having sharpshooters+strelky or tank hunters+strelky for having only constripts+guards. This tactic will be risky becouse if youll be cut of from fuel after getting Tank Depot with no upgrades youll be left with no AT and no reliable infantry.

Ill also add that that the next EF patch will change SU-85 (nerf its frontal armor) and the next ToV patch nerfs Stuarts/Stags gun vs PE Marder and 22x armor (T-70 gun stats are based on Stuart). Teching up to Tank Depot+quick Guards wont be as OP as it now seems.

I don't think it's OP at all. Red Banner Strelky is the most powerful infantry unit firepower wise, and if you're trading them in for Guards...

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I quick T3 in lots of games using strafynie, or sturmovie as my in-between infantry.

Yep but those are in-between infantry that cost you fuel to get anyway and only delay getting Strelky. The whole point of my idea is to get Gurads as main infantry without having to use anything in between. (without a possibility to use Strelky)
Its a chance to end the game quickly if the enemy was outcapped thruout the whole early-mid game when you fought using Command squad and constripts only.

Sturmovie actually work perfectly with a vehicle rush because they can help repair in the field and use munitions to build, which the fast vehicle build has loads of. A 25FU delay isn't much when you gain an infantry that can supplement your light vehicles so incredibly well. They also counter Paks and bunkers while the T90s take care of everything else.

True, but the players using that strat are a huge minority. not to mention its gimmicky. which in of itself come pre loaded for an epic fail and leaves little room for error
but of course if you pull it off you're the man  8)

It's hardly gimmicky. It's a bit similar to getting vet 1 support before going T3 as Wehr, except that instead of better MGs and self healing pios you get an extremely powerful, suppression resistant assault squad that can repair and throw free satchels at bunkers and Paks to permanently destroy them.

I think its a gimmick because you're substituting "combat engineers" for actual front line infantry. its unconventional tactics

kind of like vetted pio spam, which was gimmicky

satchels are situational anyway, a smart player wont bunker up once they see you crank out a few sturmovie. just like im moving my pak away from the thrown satchel. and suppression resistance only goes so far against a few MG42's when you dont have the main line infantry support you should have

but this of course is all theory craft  :P

Wait up, there's something very interesting coming for the Guards..