[[IP address redacted]]THE Official SU-100 removal thread

Ok, so as some of have heard already and almost had a heart attack too. The SU-100 is being removed.

While the upgrade itself was grossly overpriced, I myself dont agree witht the removal just a price decrease maybe. Anyway whats done is done and we're moving on.

My concern is that since the SU-100 has been removed our beloved SU-85 will suffer late game to axis bully tanks.

And I'm hoping the SU-85's stats will be adjusted to reflect the void that has been left by the removal of SU-100

Discuss Comrades while we await an official response :)

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 4:12 PM by blackbishop

Man, i hate it when things get removed. All that work for naught. :'(

I personally don't think its nessesary to keep the su-100, though my opinion is probably biased by me recent frustrations.

Russia is seriously packing a lot of anti-vehicle capablities as is, and there's no reason why they shouldn't either have to double down and compliment their su-85's with tank hunters or at guns, the way wehrmacht does with stugs, or else splurge for the upgrades to heavy tanks which are quite effective against even wehrmacht heavies.

the light vehicle upgrade has very effective shock value, and the su-85's provide a nice quick anti stug or anti fast PE panzer 4 capability...so they absolutely have an effective nitche.  I see no reason why this tech path should extend all by itself into late game effectiveness against not just infantry, as well as light and heavy vehicles.

Joshua, my young padawan, you forget that the wehrmachts ease of anti armor capabilites make everyone elses look like little door knockers  ;)

You get the volks squad which fausts, main infantry
grenadier, powerful main line infantry get the schrek
cloaked pak38, just when you think you only dealing with infantry and a few schreks/fausts. suprise! your tank went boom

both squads can deal with any infantry, and any armor. So remember that the Soviets need special units to deal with armor. wehrmacht needs less and is better equipped to deal with everything

And your off topic anyway! >:( just playing  :)

Im suprised too.
SU-100 looks great and guns like 17lbs have better penetrating power than it. SU-100 is actually SU-85 with 25% more dmg and a little more HP. PAKs, shrecks, mines can still kill it with ease.
It works great with T-34 but who has the resources to get both tank depot upgrades and both gun upgrades - 550ammo!!!

REDcommissar wrote:

You get the volks squad which fausts, main infantry
grenadier, powerful main line infantry get the schrek
cloaked pak38, just when you think you only dealing with infantry and a few schreks/fausts. suprise! your tank went boom

Volks panzerfausts good against half dead tanks and vehicles to finish off. The Panzerschreck guys get wery long time aiming and shootin, so with a good micro you can reverse you're vehicle and get out of the schreck's range. Paks have a long redeploying time and you can easily kite with anti infantry unit, due theres no armoure protection. Just a fresh experience, I went to my buddy with 3(!!!) sturms and surprise! He reversed his M8 and stayed out of range of the schrecks. :) And off map arty killed all of them (damn radio triangulation). I didn't played EF for months, so dont know how the balance goes, My oppinion that give the SU-100 a different role, or make a doctrinal call-in, like the Hetzer or something. The soviet faction is in the current stage is like the starcraft: Blob units, if it doesn't works, blob more units of different types. I know it's not fair asking the same time and knowlege and don't have the resources like a big company like relic, but these guys can still make it like a professionals. Anyways I look into it and test with my buddy how the mod is going and we'll see. But If you imagine Ostheer would make King tiger and Tiger Is on the field will be overpowerd if the stats will remain. But if the Eastern front stays in that way, against the SU the only army will stand is the Ostheer there's no reason why play with against the commies with wehr or against Ost with the US. That's why Relic didn't throwed EVERYTING to the Wehr. My oppinion is there is two or more units with the same combat role, one of them is have to go becouse why procuce T34's, when SU-100 more cheaper and can deploye faster on the field countering the axis armoures. Phew, I typed a lot. Is this make any sense?  8) BTW it is midnight here. So my point is not to weaken the commies but make it more tactical and I can see experts here (like Godlikedennis), so I wouldn't worry about that the SU-100 role will be changes.

Last edited April 17, 2011 at 9:52 PM by TheReaper

Not only is your post a wall of text the majority of it is off topic. And if you think wehrmacht is lacking AT ability start a thread. which for the record they are not, watch some expert replays  :) and learn

REDcommissar wrote:
Not only is your post a wall of text the majority of it is off topic. And if you think wehrmacht is lacking AT ability start a thread. which for the record they are not, watch some expert replays  :) and learn

I think you didn't payed attention. Please quote my text, where am I writing, that WE lacks of AT ability. I just wrote some tricks and experience and oppinion, please response for that.

REDcommissar wrote:
Joshua, my young padawan, you forget that the wehrmachts ease of anti armor capabilites make everyone elses look like little door knockers  ;)

Christ, where do I start...

The Wehrmachts only late game anti-armor is focused upon tanks like the Panther and Doctrinal Tiger or King Tiger. Unless you went blitz, you're likely to be low on ammo unless you dominate, and I mean DOMINATE all the ammo points and deny the enemy the map at any cost. You'll most likely be low because both Terror and Defensive have quite expensive arty, and while Blitz have blitzkrieg for 150 muni, it's not used until you're rushing the enemy. Without the muni, no one is going to be saving for shrecks when they could be launching V1s...

Quote
You get the volks squad which fausts, main infantry
grenadier, powerful main line infantry get the schrek
cloaked pak38, just when you think you only dealing with infantry and a few schreks/fausts. suprise! your tank went boom

Never, EVER invest in purely anti-infantry or purely anti-tank. If your opponent is really doling out the tanks and he still has map control, but notices nearly all of your army is AT, he's going to make a switch to elite infantry supported by tanks. What will you do when your ZIS-2 is devastated by Stormies, LMG42 Grens, Volks, Even KCHs? If you have a problem with Wehr's early-ish AT abilites you should take note of it and try to counter it with anti-infantry.

Please, PLEASE remember grens lose 50% of it's infantry effectiveness if you invest in shrecks. If you're throwing shreck grens at infantry then you're either lucky or stupid. Shreck grens have to be supported by other units, like un-upgraded grens. It's like saying if you add the LMG42 to the grens then it's instantly good against tanks.

Quote
So remember that the Soviets need special units to deal with armor. wehrmacht needs less and is better equipped to deal with everything

The SU-100 upgrade is quite attractive but isn't entirely necessary to deal with armor. T-34s can get the job done pretty well, and with SU-85 support it's excellent. If you can't play without a SU-100 because of the firepower loss then use a god damn IS-2, has a turret and larger shot...

The soviets have PLENTY of AT options, infact more so than the Wehrmacht. The Soviets can deploy both ZIS-2 and Tank Hunters, units which DO NOT cost ammo, which serve as excellent mid-game AT choices...Wehrmacht squad upgrades are very costly. Yes, the Wehr can deploy the PaK 38 and Shreck Grens, but Shrecks are costly, especially if you don't hold a majority of the map's ammo. Panzerfaust from Volks are good substitutes, but for around the same cost of a gren's shreck you can only use it twice.

Late Game (Not counting doctrinal units or upgrades like the T-34/85) the Soviet Union has 2 very good AT tanks, the SU-85 and the IS-2. Late game the Wehr has the Panther, and only the Panther.

Don't pull the "But the Panzer IV counts too" because if that's the case then BOTH T-34s count, a T-34 can beat a Panzer IV in a slug fest. And lets face it, StuGs arn't widely produced late game because they have a fixed turret, and any sensible person who would counter it would just circle it.

While I LIKE the SU-100 upgrade, again...it's not entirely necessary, and due to the high cost, it's not often bought. BUT, if the soviet campaign is ever complete, maybe it could be a reward unit of some sort for completing the campaign.

I'm not discussing strategy here, even though I believe I have the superior understanding. Grens dont lose 50% of their AI ability if upped with screks, its 25%. And that was the least crazy thing you spat off.  Not to mention you say why buy schreks when you can launch V1's? really?!  :o
If you have any more questions I would gladly tutor you to a 1v1 game.
<------MP name here hope to hear from you :)

many of your points regarding SU-85/100 are to say the least ignorant and misinformed.
So i wont even be responding to that part of your post.

In fact your entire post sounded very ignorant and not trying to offend you in any way but to be frank sounded noob. :-X

Like I said I would be glad to help you increase your understanding of the game comrade. We could play together and discuss  Thank you

Last edited April 17, 2011 at 11:32 PM by REDcommissar

And to be frank you sound like just another soviet fanboy on this forum wanting to see the faction OP as hell, wishing the IS-3 to be a main-line tank and hoping for more AT buffs. ::)

Why the hell would you upgrade with only ONE shreck. That's the worst strategy I've ever heard. Unless you're upgrading one as a shreck, and one as a LMG to balance your gren squad, upgrading with one shreck is just a lazy way of taking tanks on, and potentially doesn't do all too much.

Can't submit a damn opinion on the forum without be called a noob anymore.

The flame war stop here. Carry on.

I'm not flaming you cranial.

Its just widely understood, read an expert strategy guide on GR.com written by the top official tourny winners. obviously you havent
You're told never to have 2 schrekked gren squads running around - EVER
in my hundreds of hundreds of ladder matches I've actually never seen a wehr player EVER have a double schrek grenadier squad
And now you're arguing you should x2 schrek after you just told me that dont waste munitions on buying schreks, when you can use v1

I have a hunch, but I think you've been playing too much Scheldt
lets clear something else up i never called u a noob and never would.

and stop de railing the su-100 thread! :P :P

Last edited April 17, 2011 at 11:44 PM by REDcommissar

To date I've never played a match on the Scheldt and when I speak about balance I refer to 1v1 automatching, not camping crap.

Double shrecks are effective mid-game when you have surplus ammo (assuming you have the map control) and you keep them well supported with other infantry.

I read said guides on a regular basis and I take from them what I want. I don't care how much they tell me not to use double shreck grens, I'm quite careful with them. I don't send them in "Rambo-Style" to take on a tank alone. At worst, they get killed, their supporting inf get free shrecks.

ONE SHRECK isn't enough to take on the Soviet Tanks, so why the hell would you make 2 gren squads each with one shreck to get equivalent fire power to a gren squad with 2, when you can have one with both and the other to hold back the infantry?

Be happy you have a IS-2, and the Devs didn't say it was defiantly out. The SU-100 is out for now and they might bring it back in some way, shape or form. Don't have a heart attack over it.

add me on friend list online plz :) we will play

And bring me my heart meds if you dont want me to have a heart attack :P

Sigh... you could use the PM function for this you know.

Next time someone else post an off topic comment I'll close this, since looks like has no future and is just a flame war.

I'll only say this, currently there are a couple of choices for Tank Hall, both of them exclude the SU-100 and one of them will be used for the next patch.

This is not debatable. However, it's fair to offer an explanation about it, but until one decision is taken, i can just say(and is my personal opinion not the official one) that isn't necessary and costs too much to do for the average player, due to the muni upkeep and the upgrade cost... once you start rolling tanks your munis will stop to accumulate and eventually will be depleted. Currently SU-85 will have some tweaks, removing the splash dmg being among them, but don't expect to be a SU-100 renamed.

Last edited April 18, 2011 at 3:02 AM by blackbishop

blackbishop wrote:
Sigh... you could use the PM function for this you know.

Next time someone else post an off topic comment I'll close this, since looks like has no future and is just a flame war.

I'll only say this, currently there are a couple of choices for Tank Hall, both of them exclude the SU-100 and one of them will be used for the next patch.

This is not debatable. However, it's fair to offer an explanation about it, but until one decision is taken, i can just say(and is my personal opinion not the official one) that isn't necessary and costs too much to do for the average player, due to the muni upkeep and the upgrade cost... once you start rolling tanks your munis will stop to accumulate and eventually will be depleted. Currently SU-100 will have some tweaks, removing the splash dmg being among them, but don't expect to be a SU-100 renamed.

Awesome, thank you for offering an official explenation BB(blackbishop) :)

I bolded su-100 in ur quote I take it u meant su-85? to be clear kinda confused me.

an for the record I also agree with ur above opinion on the muni upkeep and it not being viable

REDcommissar wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
Sigh... you could use the PM function for this you know.

Next time someone else post an off topic comment I'll close this, since looks like has no future and is just a flame war.

I'll only say this, currently there are a couple of choices for Tank Hall, both of them exclude the SU-100 and one of them will be used for the next patch.

This is not debatable. However, it's fair to offer an explanation about it, but until one decision is taken, i can just say(and is my personal opinion not the official one) that isn't necessary and costs too much to do for the average player, due to the muni upkeep and the upgrade cost... once you start rolling tanks your munis will stop to accumulate and eventually will be depleted. Currently SU-100 will have some tweaks, removing the splash dmg being among them, but don't expect to be a SU-100 renamed.

Awesome, thank you for offering an official explenation BB(blackbishop) :)

I bolded su-100 in ur quote I take it u meant su-85? to be clear kinda confused me.

an for the record I also agree with ur above opinion on the muni upkeep and it not being viable

XD!!!!! Yes... i meant SU-85... well, at least the SU-85 will have proper portrait now :-[.

I never double shrek gren squads because I don't like to deal with the drop chance. With 1 shrek, the squad almost never drops them. I don't like to keep all my eggs in one basket anyway, it's too risky against allied arty. Also, it's easier to hit a tank's rear armour if you have two squads.

On the topic of the SU-100: It is being removed currently because it's rather redundant. SU-85s already penetrate everything and deal good damage. The SU-100 will probably return in some other way soon. The SU-85 is currently undergoing redesign on where it fits in the faction and it's stats are currently changing to compensate. It will always be available from the light tankovy upgrade.

I never liked SU-100. It just looks so... hilarious with it's long barrel.

trademark of Soviet tank design. love it or hate it.
If I was driver I'd be afraid of bending the barrel on a bump!

but yeah the Su-100 was never really used(in game) and crazy expensive. I'm glad the 100 is gone and the 85 is being reworked to compensate
Interesting little fact that suprised me. More 100's were built than 85's :o

my suggestion is to change old su-85 to SU-85-II, which had better targeting and LoS. I hope it doesnt get some crippling cost increase
I'm just dying to know exactly what they're doing to this "reworked" su85 :)

+1 dev team!  :)

Last edited April 18, 2011 at 9:23 AM by REDcommissar

cephalos wrote:
I never liked SU-100. It just looks so... hilarious with it's long barrel.

Im sure you dont laugh when they do the only thing they are good at - destroy youre tanks. :D
The whole point of getting a SU is destroing panzers. Noone should say its OP since it has 250HP less than T-34 (SU-85 will recive same armor type), no turret and its crap vs infantry. Its (and SU-85) gun could be nerfed a little - dmg modifiers vs Tigers and Panthers since the whole point of having heavy tanks is that they cant be destroyed easily but thats all.

Quote
my suggestion is to change old su-85 to SU-85-II, which had better targeting and LoS.

SU-85 gets 20% accuracy bonus at vet 1. :P

Ballancing SU is difficult like any other high dmg low cost unit (sharpshooter) but I dont see a reason why SU-85 should stay ingame and SU-100 be removed (expensive gun upgrade isnt a real reason).

Paciat wrote:
[...]
SU-85 gets 20% accuracy bonus at vet 1. :P

Ballancing SU is difficult like any other high dmg low cost unit (sharpshooter) but I dont see a reason why SU-85 should stay ingame and SU-100 be removed (expensive gun upgrade isnt a real reason).

Besides is redundant, we are working to tweak some aspects of the soviets(being Propaganda War one of them). By now you should know what we're looking for SU-85 in the next changelog topic (You know, i agree with BurroDiablo's plan ;)).

Currently SU-100 is, in BurroDiablo's words, a fugly SU-85 with cage armor and larger gun. That will be the first model to be reworked afaik.

blackbishop wrote:
[...]
Currently SU-100 is, in BurroDiablo's words, a fugly SU-85 with cage armor and larger gun. That will be the first model to be reworked afaik.

Bu...Bu...But I like my cage armor :(

Cranialwizard wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
[...]
Currently SU-100 is, in BurroDiablo's words, a fugly SU-85 with cage armor and larger gun. That will be the first model to be reworked afaik.

Bu...Bu...But I like my cage armor :(

I don't know if the new model will use cage armor too XD.

Infact the pretty Cage Armor and the bigger gun was a big temptation in getting the SU-100 in matches...

Yeah if you got su100s rolling out in MP you could pretty much tell axis armor FU! and forget about it