A subtly stupid question

1.Ostheer concept: neutral units¹, This is a unit that is deployed from a Tx building, T1² in this case  the conscript's role is Inf₁ Infantry. the subscript 1 is important because it indicates how many upgrades are required before a unit may be deployed. Any unit with a subscript value <=1 is a neutral unit it may be deploy from its base building with no additional cost. The next vanilla unit                           
         
Tactical Considerations

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Abilities: capping, subversive². (read as hidden abilities)
Upgrades: Inf₂, 0 pop,(IJoe informs me there is a 5 unit pop cap; which means 5 bonus conscript units can be added to your OB a 1120mp bonus, an example of conscript ability: subversive. -thanks IJoe.
role:Inf₁, blocker
costs:1st cost: 324mp;  deployment: 224mp  , reinforce: 16mp
Deployment: T1 default neutral unit¹
Combat effectiveness: Tactical: low;
(R<P<S<R): Conscript< All complex counter

1.Combat Effectiveness: low 4R 8M sqd: considered as a 4R sqd its CE/R increases as unit takes losses! IE a low CE 2HP 4R sqd.
2.Deploy as csInf at M/L range with CS ability: remove suppression units


Strategic Considerations (EF1.3.02)

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1. Unique to Soviet Faction: Strategic Reserve (5  lo grade 2HP 4R inf squads) Given infinite MP, the T1 can continuously produce L1 thru L3 Inf from the time it is completed until the facility is destroyed; ignoring the population cap. Only the Soviet Faction can do this. Hidden conscript ability!.  Given the low combat effectiveness of the Conscript you could call this the Zombie Army Tactic.
2. How can we use the Zombie Army  to enhance our Strategic planning and implementation? Query:can conscripts still be recruited after penal troop upgrade is complete?
3.The Soviet Static bunker unit/outpost (garrison cap=1 pop cap-10,ability: reinforce) and the conscript compliment other each
as forlorn hope tactic with excellent flexibility in easy implementation. In rock< paper<scissors we usually think in one-on-one or small group actions. In this case we have the rare example of a complex counter. Just like a small child who always throws out rock, we won't win too many rounds but every round we win generates a bonus in the Capping and Resource Acquisition Duel. (zero sum) I think we have just discovered the Conscript's hidden counter.

4.You may not agree with a lot of this. I don't. I usually only deploy 2-3 Conscripts to Garrison strategic outposts in quiet sectors. Doesn't matter. I do know the answer to my own dumb question.
A Conscript is good for inspiring Strategic Thought. NUFF SAID.

footnotes

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1. The use of the term neutral to describe the first vanilla unit (L₁) to come from a production building in the unit development series. A Strelky is an L₂Inf, a Guard, L₃Inf. The Inf label describes not only the role of the unit but implies the deployment source as well. IE Inf comes from the T1=InfHQ. My first reaction was to use the term default for this type of unit and apply a subscript₀ to designation. To my mind this is clearer to the average gamer. CoH is at heart a rock, paper, scissors game neutral and 0 imply a zero sum game.
2. Other Sov units with ability:subversive: Outpost, Zis ambulance,

Sun Tzu writes a lot about hidden and secret things in The Art of War. Its worth a read.

Last edited April 4, 2011 at 3:17 AM by tpcoughlin

Hi comrade

it look good on paper but in reality soviet army does not synergize well with capping OPs and building Mg nests you are better to stay aggressive keep on the move capping all points

also use conscript to cap and to stall until you can build strelky, preferrably with red banner upgrade. as they are strongest infantry in game with command squad and ppsh

conscipt is not effective main line infantry if u try to use them as such u will find fastly that it is huge drain on ur economy/MP and hinders ur growth and tech.

dont bother with penal troops they have no retreat and it is a liability losing whole squad ever, strelky comrade they are our hammer

Tovarich
I use ingeneri as line infantry in pairs  maneuver and fire, I leap frog  my cappers until contact at which point all drop what they are doing and march to the sound of the guns. As supporting infantry comes
up they seek good cover, all squads concentrate their fire  on one target. as more and more infantry converge I cycle out battered units to build a nearby OPs on either flank. Command Squad and Sharpshooter form the combat assault team. maneuver and fire. Kill the enemy which ever is easiest. Obtain veterancy and upgrade to get artillery support. Decimated Eng retreat to OP  to reinforce and create kill zones. I build my Tech buildings this way: as each eng deploys he starts one or two buildings and moves on. Sooner or later an eng  is decimated he retreats to HQ and finished the buildings. I tech T2/mrCS/T4/T1.

That Tovarich is the American Way.

tpcoughlin, why do you use ingenery for capping and main infantry? Conscripts and Strelky are better for that purpose. In my opinion, Ingenery are only good for constructing structures, and flaming structures (if they have ROKS-2 flamethrower)

Conscripts have an on-par or potentially better capping rate than riflemen. I don't see why you would use Ingenery for capping due to their low cap rate. Conscripts are good for that stage where you need a bit of fuel to unlock an upgrade in the support center to get Strelky (And of course the 2 support units)

I think actually my ingenery do the majority of my capping as well, because my conscripts and command squad are always somewehre fighting or scouting. generally speaking

What, conscripts can't fight and cap when the enemy retreats when they see a blob?  ::)

Yes my conscript do that of course and the strelky etc. but what im saying is that I think my ingenery do most cap throughout whole game overall. I dont know this true but that what it seem like to me comrade

think how many time have your men been attacked while capping  and do not finish

think how many time u simply de-cap and move

all the time my ingenery have finished cap of many point

Last edited April 7, 2011 at 2:25 AM by REDcomissar

I still am not sure of the role of conscripts in EF. But the good news is (I think) when EF_Ostheer comes out 2 free conscript squads will be available at HQT₀  at the start of the game. At 224mp/Conscript I still think conscripts are too expensive. The prospect of two battle_groups (2-Ingenery, 1-Conscript), early in the game presents interesting possibilities.

Last edited April 10, 2011 at 10:30 PM by tpcoughlin

Conscripts function exactly as volks, defeated one on one by other squads but useful in small groups or with other weapons (command squad). They are phased out by superior troops later on. Conscripts aren't nearly as bad as people seem to think, especially with the AI fixed. Conscripts are also excellent troops in buildings.

The conscript battlegroups are a horrible idea.

Soviets are actually slightly more powerful than Wehr in the beginning with CS and 3 conscript squads fighting against ~3 enemy WQ units. The fourth WQ unit turns the fight in the Wehr's favour and the first support unit from the Soviets turns it again.

Penal troops are currently being considered by the devs so may change soon. They are good troops to flank or charge MG positions. Penal squad > MG. The upgrade lets all conscripts counter buildings which is lacking in the Soviet early game as well. This is an important factor. Against a good player, one should always tech either sniper team/mortar, strafynie or sturmovie ingenery for early anti-building.

penal squads what do u mean they're "being considered"?

I never build penal squads no retreat button is just a disaster, and it makes them take ages to reinforce

I also find penal squads not worth it.  IMO the ingenerie bodyarmor or the red banner upgrade is much better.  I think upgraded ingies need a increase in reinforce cost and penal squads should get a buff like cheaper reinforcements to reward players who micro them well and actually get them back to HQ alive.

They are currently under review. I can't say any more than that.

Penal squads would certainly be worth it if the unsuppressability worked properly at the moment. Not being able to be suppressed for 50MU 15FU is very good.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
They are currently under review. I can't say any more than that.

Penal squads would certainly be worth it if the unsuppressability worked properly at the moment. Not being able to be suppressed for 50MU 15FU is very good.

Well, it works in the internal beta ;D!!

blackbishop wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
They are currently under review. I can't say any more than that.

Penal squads would certainly be worth it if the unsuppressability worked properly at the moment. Not being able to be suppressed for 50MU 15FU is very good.

Well, it works in the internal beta ;D !!

I hope the non-suppression ability works well too. Makes the penal sqds more usefull as support troops.
Don't forget the upgrade also gives your existing consripts that lovey incendiary cocktail; makes them more useful in urban combat, And they can hit and run! 

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Penal squads would certainly be worth it if the unsuppressability worked properly at the moment. Not being able to be suppressed for 50MU 15FU is very good.

What's the dirty with the unsupressibility?

Otto wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Penal squads would certainly be worth it if the unsuppressability worked properly at the moment. Not being able to be suppressed for 50MU 15FU is very good.

What's the dirty with the unsupressibility?

word on the streets is they're fixing it now so next patch the penal squads finally will be unsuppressable

Yeah it works properly now. Guards vet 1 now also works.

v1.31: I have recently noticed that 3 to 4 man Panzer Grenadiers w/ MP44's a regularly being suppressed by 7-8 man Conscript Squads. ???

Otto wrote:
v1.31: I have recently noticed that 3 to 4 man Panzer Grenadiers w/ MP44's a regularly being suppressed by 7-8 man Conscript Squads. ???

Yeah, a nasty bug, iirc in 1.40 we removed the suppression.

v1.4.0: I am impressed with the new improved Conscripts. with vet and the molotov motor criticals they have become useful and fun. Maybe they are too cheap now. Perhaps the reinforce cost should be increased when they are upgraded. One thing bothers me about the petrol bomb upgrade. The squad becomes an 8 man squad. Vet1 gives a -5% received damage bonus, effectively raising HPs to 39/man, 316/squad. Vet2 this becomes 8 rifles. Since the Commissar is gone why the extra man? The offensive power of 8 rifles plus molotovs is heavy duty.

I read somewhere that Concripts are still suppressing vetted VGs and PGs. Haven't seen it myself as I am getting better at eradicating Conscripts. What is your experience?

OT: v1.3.1  When dealing with AI Katyuska spams I found two or three hits from tankguns were insufficient to kill a Studebaker. Seems strange given the velocity of an AP shell and the impact it should have on a truck loaded with rocket fuel. It has been stated that molotovs and incendiary grenades are equally effective on Allied vehicles up to Stuarts. Does this mean they will receive engine criticals? If so I need to use infantry against Katyuskas. THey'll need sneakers though.  ;D BTW in 1.4.0 Naval Infantry is spammed not Katyuskas.

We have replaced the criticals damage to the engine caused by the molotov for secondary weapon dmg chance, unless the vehicle/tank has low health it will get damage engine.

About the conscript suggestion, we are looking at it.

This thread was started because conscripts seemed to me to have little utility. In v1.3xx the only value I could see was for capping and as a strategic reserve. The advent of v1.40 has changed all of that. Not only is it fun to play using conscripts (mostly because of vet), but The early game on AI allows one to simulate the build-up of the Soviet Juggernaut with a nice historical feel. I believe the muni maintenance rules have a lot to do with this. It is necessary in historical simulation style of play to maintain the highest rate of resources rolling in. Zero pop Conscripts add to this effort. and the careful selection of low maintenance units allows for the development of a potent strike force in the middle game. Of course using low level units early on leads to many aborted thrusts and routs to HQ/med truck, but this to adds to the historical feel. My compliments to the Designers. I think you have the right tools to achieve good campaigns once Ostheer arrives.

v.1.6 Time to review my understanding of Conscripts again.

Conscript:

• 7m/4R level1 rifle squad, 220 MP


• capping rate=1.25-1.5(@vet 2)


• upgrades: Molotovs, (100MP/15FP-global); 7m/7R upgrade (50 muni/squad) with "For the Motherland @3CP

veterancy:

• Vet1(7XP): Reinforcement cost decreased by 2~3 manpower.


• Vet2(14XP): Increased range for throwing Molotovs. Increased the capture rate by 25%. (1.5)


• Vet3(24XP); Received damage: -10%, Damage: +20%

Strategic Reserve:

• Up to 5 Conscript squads are available at no burden to the Pop Cap


• Caveats: the 5th conscript must be obtained when PoP <= Pop Cap - 7.


• Pop Cap will scan 7pop/squad higher than it is.

Strafnaye is a unique unit and does count against Pop Cap