What is the point of upgrading the guard squad ?

This question pops up in my head every now and then.

Let's look at this "upgrade" (that costs 100 munitions and 50 fuel to perform) more closely, and compare the squad before and after:

Regular guards (before):
340 mp
- 6 men
- 37 mp reinforcement cost

Shock  guards (after):
380 mp
- 7 men
- "suppression" (PE-like) ability (rather useless by the time guards hit the field)
- 41 mp reinforcement cost

Note: this "upgrade" does not result in any other changes in trooper's or squad's statistics.

Compare this to similar costing upgrade of strelky, that gives access to new weapons and abilities, or to conscripts' upgrade, that replaces the unit with the new one, that is "unsuppressible" (yeah, right - fxck that!) and can even finish off severely damaged vehicles (I recall killing KT with it and gaining instant vet 3 for them)

Summary: upgrading guards is costly and pointless, thus the upgrade should be changed (to giving some proper advantage), or removed.

Any thoughts?

Last edited March 31, 2011 at 1:45 PM by IJoe

I guess somebody is going to say that this ability is 'awesome', while is rather.... useless?
I agree with you, Shock Guards look a bit odd - upgrade which doesn't upgrade anything important. Well, at least 7th guy is added. Maybe some PPshs  ;D ?

Maybe remove the price increase of the squad/reinforcements?

pariah wrote:
Maybe remove the price increase of the squad/reinforcements?

Reinforcement cost is calculated as a percentage (75%) of a squad member cost, and is not the issue here.

I find "upgrading" guards a burden to economy for two reasons:
1) it costs a lot,
2) it increases the squad's cost by 40 mp (justified by adding a new, ppsh-armed member to the squad), while 340 mp is already a lot for a soviet player, who actually plays (is active on the field), since it is a rare occasion, that you turn out to have a lot of unneeded manpower stocked.

Oh, O.K., i didn't realize it was based on percentage. Is that a Soviet thing? So how about just removing the additional cost of the squad then? Or maybe reducing the cost of the upgrade?

I just think the upgrade itself is overpriced. Shock guards are very good. Slow with grenades is a powerful combo and the extra member increases squad combat power quite a bit.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I just think the upgrade itself is overpriced. Shock guards are very good. Slow with grenades is a powerful combo and the extra member increases squad combat power quite a bit.

Ppsh is a mid-short range weapon, besides 1 ppsh is a joke (compared to 6 svt), while svt is an all-range one, so the increase of firepower is greatly overestimated.
The upgrade, that results in changing a squad's name (;)) could give some more advantage, like charge FE.

I was referring mostly to the added health of an already considerably healthy squad. Slow is immensly powerful when used right. Either the upgrade should decrease in cost to around 50MU 25FU or it should grant an extra ability.

Considering the period they arrive in: how about a new power similar to the tank shock of the churchill but on the infantry squad. Reduce the period it's active to about 1-2 secs to just give a brief window for the guards to change a battle slightly. It fits in with the idea of the squad as a linebreaker. Also remove slow since it's a stupid annoying ability and PE slow is also being nerfed in the coming retail patch.

Since I don't play brits at all (I heavily dislike these campers), what is the "tank shock"?
Anyway 1-2 sec. is kind o' nothing - you won't move too far in that much time.

Isn't it (PE- suppression) gonna actually pin-down enemy infantry for as long as 5 sec? I'd call that a 100% buff!

Last edited March 31, 2011 at 2:56 PM by IJoe

I forget whether it's a targeted ability or not (it changed in Tales Of Valor), but the Churchill can activate that ability to suppress near-by infantry, making them easier to run over.

Nah, since G43 slow meant that you could target retreating squads and get cheap full squad kills.

Tank shock is an activated ability on the churchill that suppresses enemy infantry in the immediate area around the churchill up to around 10m I estimate. It's quite useful in combination with the mine plow for some Jerry lawn mowing. I propose a very short duration of this on the shock guards so that they suppress infantry in the immediate vicinity for about 3-4 sec (so around 1-2 sec of actual ability active time, allowing for recovery). I think it would be very interesting to have a unit with such an ability late game.

Wow, so the Slow ability works on retreating units? I never thought to try that... Thanks! How about the Suppression ability of the Riflemen?

No, since it deals suppression. When retreating, suppression is set to 0 which is why you are able to retreat. Slow is another effect altogether, as is the stun from assault nades, that are applicable to retreating squad entities. This is why they're OP abilities.

Really? Is Suppression not meant to work on retreating units? I have seen Suppressed and Pinned retreating units... Maybe it's a bug or something, i dunno... ???

I always thought that ability should be cheaper or guards should come already upgraded.

Give the Guards a DP-28 or PTRD rifle? The PTRD wouldn't be nearly as effective as the one the Tank Hunters wield, but it might be a nice touch. The PPsH...IMO, unless you have 12+ PPsHs, the weapon blows. Hard. Replace the Slow ability; add Sprint/Fire Up (they are supposed to be breakout/breakthrough units :3 )

^^ ppsh, or Pistolet-Pulemet Shpagina = Shpagin's Machine-Pistol
is similar/equal to mp40 ATM in all characteristics, if I'm not mistaken.
Which is rather "strange" on any account, IMO

Another way to make this "upgrade" worth its price would be to divide the abilities' cool-down timers by 3

Last edited March 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM by IJoe

Perhaps a Toggle-able "Run" Ability?

Doesn't change suppression but gives them the ability to flank fast?

I also love grenadiers' doctrinal "grenade storm". Something like that for Shock guards (esp. after they reach vet 1 and are unsuppressible) would certainly make my day ;).

Dragon93 wrote:
Perhaps a Toggle-able "Run" Ability?

Doesn't change suppression but gives them the ability to flank fast?

If it's just a toggleable ability with no drawbacks, why would anybody turn it off? Much better off with the Sprint ability of the Panzer Elite.

IJoe wrote:
I also love grenadiers' doctrinal "grenade storm". Something like that for Shock guards (esp. after they reach vet 1 and are unsuppressible) would certainly make my day ;).

+1
"molotov storm" sound quite funny though.

Some of the ideas here are a little OP. Remember that guards are already amazing troops and shock guards only need a little something extra, not assault grenades etc. on top of their existing abilities. Maybe shock guards should just get a cooldown reduction on their abilities like IJoe suggested.

Guards dont need anything added to them leave them as is. Just decrease the cost of the upgrade and it will be perfect IMO to what dennis suggest 40muni 25fuel ???


Mods/devs whats the official  statement on this for next patch? Is this being considered?

Last edited April 22, 2011 at 7:56 AM by REDcommissar

May be he bear in mind another matter (my words is correct?) ...
Stormtrooper group.
In Stalingrad there was a small groups of expiriensed troopers with full automatic infantry weapons & infantry MG's ... They are equiped with bullet protection sometime.
Group was consist of 8-12 mens, with granades & "molotovs".
(May be not upgrading, but call in ...)

With 5 visible troops, 2 armed with PD-27 LMG, others equiped with PPSh. All swuited with armour protection.

Plastic models of the Soviet Assault Group 1944-1945

Last edited April 22, 2011 at 9:39 AM by Sturmovik

@Sturmovik
I see...

There are some changes for Shock Guards to be implemented in the next patch. But that doesn't mean you should stop suggesting, the more the merrier ;D!

The way Im seeing it is that the guards are absolutely perfect the way they are, its the shock guard upgrade thats in dire need of price reduction

50 fuels and 100 munition is just way way too high for one member and slow  :(

thats all

guards are not being nerfed are they? please not another nerf not our beloved guards. they're the only soviet elite infantry worth a lick in a straight shootout and we need them how they are now. they scale well with vet for fighting axis vetted troops, that is if you can get guards their vet

Last edited April 29, 2011 at 5:09 AM by REDcommissar