T34 armor - was it really that awesome?

So was the revolutionary sloped armor of the T34 really that amazing? What German guns could penetrate it? 88? 75? What about American guns (Korean War)?

Thank You.

Well, basically, the T34 was merely invulnerable to everything in '41. At that point germans realized that they badly needed to improve their AT weapons.
With the introduction of the PzIVF2 equipped with a 75mm long-barreled gun in march 1942, the germans ended the domination of the T34.

The sloped armor of the T34 mean that, if someone try to shoot at you with a wrong angle of fire, his shell will deflect with relatively small damage on the armor itself.
Sloped armor proved to be very useful at long range, where you cant really aim at a weak spot.

By 1942, and to the end of the war, most germans AT weapons could penetrate the T34's armor.
Also, most (if not all) american gun could pierce it at the time of the Korean War: improved ammunition and caliber definitly made the T34 useless.

Considering the idea of sloped armor itself, it was, in fact, revolutionary, since it proved to be, at average, about 100% percent more effective than the non-sloped one, meaning you could have the same effect with less weight and spend a lot less resources to produce a vehicle.
Was the t-34's armor all that good? Compared to what? It was definitely a whole lot better than any other of the time the tank was introduced.

IJoe wrote:
Was the t-34's armor all that good? Compared to what? It was definitely a whole lot better than any other of the time the tank was introduced.

Well said. It was good just like PzIVD wa in 1939, PzIVF2 in 1942 or the Panther in 1944 (without mechanical problems).
T-34 gun was never as accurate as German guns. Thats also why Soviet tanks fired while on the move.

Paciat wrote:

IJoe wrote:
Was the t-34's armor all that good? Compared to what? It was definitely a whole lot better than any other of the time the tank was introduced.

Well said. It was good just like PzIVD wa in 1939, PzIVF2 in 1942 or the Panther in 1944 (without mechanical problems).
T-34 gun was never as accurate as German guns. Thats also why Soviet tanks fired while on the move.

Early versions of t-34/76 didn't have an aim compensation system. So, in fact, they had to make a brief stop during the move-on in order to fire (for aiming purposes). The problem, however, was solved in later models.

Soviet T34 began to fire on the move when the heavy germans tanks appeared to be invulnerable at long range. Soviets didnt wanted to fire at a target if it was ineffective. With the introduction of better gun/ammunition/optics, they re-started to take their time.  ;D

IJoe wrote:
t was definitely a whole lot better than any other of the time the tank was introduced.

Well, it could have been, if Stalin didnt purged experienced and capable commanders/scientific.
It was planned to build a new version with a three man turret, new optics, radio, and better engine (all the composant that make the T34 hardly reliable), but this newer version was delayed and never entered production due to the german invasion.
This tank would have been a truly formidable tank, even throughout the entire war.
The primary version, the T34/76, was indeed very good individually compared to german panzers, but was ineffective grouped against grouped panzer. The lack of radio and commanders able to coordinate efforts made them somewhat useless.

^^ Don't misuse my words in your comments, dude, - I was talking specifically about the armor.

IJoe wrote:
^^ Don't misuse my words in your comments, dude, - I was talking specifically about the armor.

My bad, sorry then!  ;D

IJoe wrote:
^^ Don't misuse my words in your comments, dude, - I was talking specifically about the armor.

Do small vision slicks that gave T-34 very limited visibility count as a armor flaw? It was the armor that was blocking the vision.

Paciat wrote:
Do small vision slicks that gave T-34 very limited visibility count as a armor flaw? It was the armor that was blocking the vision.

No, they don't. Not in this case, since my answer was strongly related to the topic, as I see it, and that means, I was talking about the deflecting, and overall protecting capabilities of the armor.

So in short it gave good protection but it wasnt awsome nor amazing. Accually even tanks like Matilda I had similar armor protection.
The british Matilda A1 light tank
KV armor was far better than any other tank. Its the mix of armor, firepower, mobility and cheapness that made T-34 amazing.

^^ absolutely right.

the t34 had 45mm of sloping armor, compare to the 80mm or so that the panther had. it was good at the start of the war, but soon lost its invulnerability as mentioned earlier


also, like all sloped armor it suffered from the effects of overmatching, which is when a sell with a larger diameter than the thickness of sloped armor hits, it basically reduces the effective armor protection the slope offers. this can be seen with panthers being penetrated by shells from the IS2 or isu152, which had significantly larger shells in terms of diameter

It was superior to its american and british counterparts.

Only thing the t34 struggled against were tanks that outclassed it, tonnage specifically. in which case were mismatches anyway.

big tanks target for big guns ;D

T34 is overrated albeit it was superior to most all other tanks during its prime time not because of it being powerful in terms of firepower (the T34 mind you not any of the later models) it was because it made the best use of deflection in its design through the cosine rule:
TL= TN
      cos θ
Wherein TL: Line of sight thickness TN: Normal thickness and θ: Angle of the sloped armour plate from the vertical

     
In layman's terms, sloped armored tanks trump non sloped tanks

T34 had a superb design when it was introduce and far better than anything anyone else had. Like any early tank it had its issues, most notably the 2 man turret (without a turret basket and ammo protection) and limited visibility.

When the war started it was far superior to anything on the field. In time however the german tanks were up armed and uparmoured to match it.
The T34 design however remained the same in terms of armour and gun until the T34/85.
It wasn't because they didn't need to upgrade it, but because Stalin believed that it was only through quantity that would defeat the Germans.
Therefore any possible gun/armour upgrades that would reduce production were discounted as unacceptable.

It was only after the battle of Kursk that Stalin realized that the casualties of the T34s were becoming unsustainable. T34/85 upgrade came in two years after it should have.

As a tactical weapon weapon of war, the T34 was the best. Its quality as an individual machine was surpassed

Only two tanks fought throughout the war 1939-1945. The PzIV and the T34. T34 was overall a better weapon of war

T-34/76 and T-34-85 is not only modifications of the main battle tank.
A large mass of modifications take a place during production process.
Turret if the T-34/76 tank have a number of changes. Those things give a number of advencements to the battle machine.

For the chassis armour, thrue, slope armour take little chance to hit light ammo. Some times, most of them simple leaped back ... 88 mm & other heavy shells can only hit the tank, for their weight & speed (Tiger, Panther ...).

Thak commander improve their tactical & group coherence skills for reballance technical threat situation.

P.S.: T-34/85 have a long history before battle debut. Example - counterpart of that tank is experimental T-43 machine ...

History in images

Photo1
BT-7M / A-20 / T-34(1940) with L11 cannon / T-34(1941) with F34 cannon

T-34 (1940) armour
Photo2

Chasis
Photo2

Turret of the T-34(1940)
Photo3

Damaged T-34 (1941) during Stalingrad battle
There are some shell wholes, but not every one penetrate the armour ...
Photo4

Link to the armouring scheme of the T-34/85
Photo5

Optional:
Carry that kind of toy is ...
Photo6

Tank turrets

cast steel
Photo7

Stalingrads fabrik (nut-turret)
Photo8

Sormovo
Photo9

Nijniy Tagil city
Photo10

Extra armour shielding project
Ex1
Ex2
Ex3

Update

T-34 during battle for Moscow (Military parade before 120km counterattack)

T-34 during battle for Moscow (Military parade before 120km counterattack)

Examples of turret construction difference. 1941. First - Cast steel. Second - welding construction.

1943 production year turret modification.

T-34 of 1943 year modification & T-43.

Video material:
Освободители: Танкисты [02]

Last edited April 18, 2011 at 11:24 AM by Sturmovik

Zerstörer wrote:
most notably the 2 man turret (without a turret basket and ammo protection) and limited visibility.

As a tactical weapon weapon of war, the T34 was the best. Its quality as an individual machine was surpassed

Only two tanks fought throughout the war 1939-1945. The PzIV and the T34. T34 was overall a better weapon of war

I'm sorry but I cant not simply sit idly by while you through out such wayward praises...

This isnt meant to be a flame mind you and if someone wants to try and call me out on it and start an illegitimate "flame war" and wear the hat of the charlatan, well then so be it but be prepared to be ignored in kind.

Yes this may seem esoteric of me but hey don't you have to be when it comes to any non-pseudo historical discussion? So with that said the first thing that needs to be addressed is your overly bold proclamation that the T34 was the best tactical and then you follow that with a complete contradiction of "Its quality as an individual machine was surpassed" (so best but not best?) Not to mention of course the aforementioned problem it had in regards to its turret and its heavily limited visibility and sights which is why it was more iconic and more noteworthy when it received the "mickey mouse turret" as its moniker became.

Lastly this huge error of proclaiming that the T34 was fully produced through out the war, granted the other half of your statement is correct in regards to the PzIV however this topic isn't about that anyway, fact is it hadn't started into pre-production until well into 1940 and didn't even achieve relevancy till 1941 for obvious reasons (Op Barbarossa)   
 

@Sovereign:
You are aware that T-34 was, is, and will be a soviet tank, right? And you are aware as well, that SU entered into battle activities of any significance  in the scale only in 1941 (barbarossa) as well? That surely goes only for traditional historical presumptions only.
Anyway, this topic is called "T34 armor - was it really that awesome?" So I really see no relevance of your post to the aforementioned.

IJoe, you do realize that it has already been established that this is about the soviet tank as it is about the T34 thus the transitive property comes into play...

Your point about the title is well put however by default if your right then your post in reply to mine is just as irrelevant as mine, that's just simple logic after all..

Let me just end this by saying if it were the PzIV that had sloped armor prior to the T34s rolling out from Kharkiv, then the renown roles would had been reversed but lets not forget that in actuality it was technically the A20 which was the first to have this sloped armor at the time. (yes, I know it was just the prototype form but still considered different vehicle)

Sovereign wrote:
IJoe, you do realize that it has already been established that this is about the soviet tank as it is about the T34 thus the transitive property comes into play...

Your point about the title is well put however by default if your right then your post in reply to mine is just as irrelevant as mine, that's just simple logic after all..

Let me just end this by saying if it were the PzIV that had sloped armor prior to the T34s rolling out from Kharkiv, then the renown roles would had been reversed but lets not forget that in actuality it was technically the A20 which was the first to have this sloped armor at the time. (yes, I know it was just the prototype form but still considered different vehicle)

Oh FFS! -If your grandma had a dxck, she'd probably be your grandpa!
And my post was relevant to yours, not to the topic. That's true enough.

I love you I-Joe. your Posts rule!!!

Sovereign wrote:
T34 is overrated ...

WHO CARES, THE T-34 WAS AN AWESOME TANK IN ITS TIME.

There were so many of them they just steam rolled over the Nazi war machine. Isn't that really all that matters?

Sovereign wrote:

Zerstörer wrote:
most notably the 2 man turret (without a turret basket and ammo protection) and limited visibility.

As a tactical weapon weapon of war, the T34 was the best. Its quality as an individual machine was surpassed

Only two tanks fought throughout the war 1939-1945. The PzIV and the T34. T34 was overall a better weapon of war

I'm sorry but I cant not simply sit idly by while you through out such wayward praises...

Let him!  ;D

[quote author=IJoe link=topic=5476.msg67304#msg67304 date=1304287721]
[quote author=Sovereign link=topic=5476.msg67301#msg67301 date=1304286248]
Oh FFS! -If your grandma had a dxck, she'd probably be your grandpa!
And my post was relevant to yours, not to the topic. That's true enough.

Don't swear, everyone is entitled to their opinion (regardless how wrong it is unfortunately)  :(

Last edited May 2, 2011 at 7:39 AM by Paladin88

yeah who won the war?  :P

RedGuard wrote:
Only thing the t34 struggled against were tanks that outclassed it, tonnage specifically. in which case were mismatches anyway.

Any tank would struggle against tanks that outclass that tank.

irik wrote:

RedGuard wrote:
Only thing the t34 struggled against were tanks that outclassed it, tonnage specifically. in which case were mismatches anyway.

Any tank would struggle against tanks that outclass that tank.

exactly, specifically point being it dominated tanks within its weight class - meaning it was superior in those regards. AKA awesome lol :)

German 4th tank division reports about battles with russian tank corps.

6.10.1941

11:00–14:00.
After crossing bridge, tanks takes a battle. Destroyed 4 light soviet tanks & 7 AT guns.
Field of battle reaching T-34 & destroys 9 tanks.
2 Flak88 turning against russian wave & makes some hits. (Does not write - whow much number of destroyed ...)
All 2 Flaks destroyed with direct hits.
Howitzers hit 2, than 3 russian tanks.

14:00
4 russian tank try to reach the bridge, but with hard fire turning back.
Than take a place hard battle with 25 soviet t-34 & light tanks. Declaired, but not confirmed with russian "combat jornals" for 6 german tanks, 2 Flak88, 2 field guns. Destroyed 17 tanks (doesn't corrected, what tipes of tanks is destroyed ...) ...

9.10.1941
In about 14:00, soviet T-34 (doesn't sound a number of battle machines) on the East of village First Warrior destroys 2 tanks, from the position far from the actual fire of guns & Flaks, germans turning back ...  but destroys some transport vechisles ... (what & what tipe is unknown)
Hard artillery & "Guard mortars" preventing quick retreat.
Near the night, russians destroys 4 tanks, lost 1 T-34.
BUT, Russians displays barefaced impudence, they dragging hitted tank on a tug.

10.10.1941
Langemann takes a flank positions of 4th tank brigade, & going forvard to Mcensk. He got a help with 3rd tank division, that capturing Bolhov.
... porridge of city fights.

am I only one who think that previous comment was totally pointless?
It doesn't prove anything.

cephalos wrote:
am I only one who think that previous comment was totally pointless?
It doesn't prove anything.

I actually thought about posting just the same comment that you did. But I didn't.  ;D

Sturmovik wrote:
German 4th tank division reports about battles with russian tank corps.

6.10.1941

11:00–14:00.
After crossing bridge, tanks takes a battle. Destroyed 4 light soviet tanks & 7 AT guns.
Field of battle reaching T-34 & destroys 9 tanks.
2 Flak88 turning against russian wave & makes some hits. (Does not write - whow much number of destroyed ...)
All 2 Flaks destroyed with direct hits.
Howitzers hit 2, than 3 russian tanks.

14:00
4 russian tank try to reach the bridge, but with hard fire turning back.
Than take a place hard battle with 25 soviet t-34 & light tanks. Declaired, but not confirmed with russian "combat jornals" for 6 german tanks, 2 Flak88, 2 field guns. Destroyed 17 tanks (doesn't corrected, what tipes of tanks is destroyed ...) ...

9.10.1941
In about 14:00, soviet T-34 (doesn't sound a number of battle machines) on the East of village First Warrior destroys 2 tanks, from the position far from the actual fire of guns & Flaks, germans turning back ...  but destroys some transport vechisles ... (what & what tipe is unknown)
Hard artillery & "Guard mortars" preventing quick retreat.
Near the night, russians destroys 4 tanks, lost 1 T-34.
BUT, Russians displays barefaced impudence, they dragging hitted tank on a tug.

10.10.1941
Langemann takes a flank positions of 4th tank brigade, & going forvard to Mcensk. He got a help with 3rd tank division, that capturing Bolhov.
... porridge of city fights.

This is

Whatever that is.

@sturm haha I understand you comrade

its only one battle but nice report none the less

That sir, is a failed game of Tic Tac Toe.

Seeme wrote:
That sir, is a failed game of Tic Tac Toe.

This guy is smart!

T34 armor - was it really that awesome?



Yes.

t 34 also had a good radius of action (it could drive twice as far as a panzer 4 to get to the fight), as said before sloped armour.
could mount a fairly decent gun on the thing and it was cost effective.
good turn of speed too.

course it had defects the main one being lack of good crew training for soviet t34 tank crews.
and if upgunnded to 85mm there was a flaw i was not aware of
(wiki)
"The length of the otherwise formidable 85 mm gun barrel (4.645 meters) made it necessary to be careful not to dig it into the ground on bumpy roads or in combat. As A.K. Rodkin pointed out "the tank could have dug the ground with it in the smallest ditch. If you fired it after that, the barrel would open up at the end like the petals of a flower"

yeah almost all russian tank with bigger gun had this problem, look at the IS-2 and SU-100 for a good example  :o :)

что касается игры, т34 76 только ветеран может выйти победителем из дуэли с пз4.
т34 85 против пантеры  1 на 1 груда железа.

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броня т34 76 45мм корпус, башня образца 42  60мм(интересный факт: зимой- весной 1941-1942 года выпустили около 1100 штук т34 с броней корпуса и башни 60мм, сделано это было из-за пз4 с длинноствольной пушкой, но потом выпуск прекратили потому ,что пз4 с длинноствольной пушкой был очень редким в 1942 году)
на т34 85 корпус 45мм башня 90мм, в 1945 году корпус т34 стал 60мм

Last edited July 17, 2011 at 5:42 PM by ap6y3

The discussion is over! T-34 rules!

The march of the Russian tankmen

^^hear hear to the victors of the great war! destroyers of evil champions of liberty

more like replacing one evil guy with another^^