Waffen-SS & Panzer Elite

When i first heard the Panzer Elite i was thinking: "well Italians arent cool enough for this game so they make a panzergrenadiers into a new faction". A long while later i read from somewhere that the panzer elite suppose to be Waffen-SS, which is not a part of the Wehrmacht. According to the source that i cant find it again, Waffen is usually equipped with "2nd grade" equipment like Marder and early version of Panzer4 tanks . Even super tanks like jagpanthers are rebuild from panthers with damaged turrets. So the Waffen deserves the new-faction title, but there's some dark history with the Waffen so they stuck with the name Panzer Elite.

So what do you guys think? Is it true that Waffen-SS is really given left-overs from the Wehrmacht? Or can we say panzergrenadiers and Wehrmacht are actually separate bodies?

I believe that the Panzer Elite are a veteran Eastern Front SS division using the armoured equivelant of 'Make-do and Mend', which was fairly common in the Second World War. Why buy new equipment when you can recycle old and just hope the enemy doesnt have the right AT gun  :P

Panzer Elite could be the Waffen SS because during the Battle of Arnhem and Holland germans send the 2. SS.-Panzerkoprs by SS-Obergruppenführer Willi Bittrich against the XXX. british Corps and the paratroupers. Part of the 2. SS.-PzKorps were although an hugh number of "Kampfgruppen" which were most named by their leading officers ( but 1944 there wasnt any unit called Kampfgruppe Lehr ).
This Kampfgruppen were often armed with rest of weapons of their older troup or weapons which were just avalible in short time.
An other indication fot Waffen-SS is the sign of the vehicles because they have the sign of a bolt and this sign was the offical sign of the II. SS.-PzKorps 1944.

So i think this equipment of the Panzer Elite was chosen because of the theater and the armysituation.
Normaly Waffe-SS gets better equipment then the Wehrmacht e.g. the Tiger: Wehrmacht had to use 10 companies of Tigers for all fronts! SS had three own Tiger-companies and three divisions with thier own Tiger-forces so they had more Tigers for their own troups then the Wehrmacht fot all theaters. 3 SS.-PzKorps with 3 own Tiger-companies...so each PzKoprs could get his own Tiger-support ;)
But the Kampfgruppen werent Waffe-SS troups, they fight just under the 2. SS.-PzKorps and so they dont get better equipment. They had to use what they get.

Lord Rommel

Last edited March 27, 2009 at 12:49 PM by Lord Rommel

  The Kampfgruppe Lehr were probably a direct comparison of the Panzer lehr Division. This was an Elite Whermacht division that, with Grossdeuchland Divisiond, was Hitlers favourite Whermacht divisions. The Waffen SS where much more elite however, and every SS soldier vowed to die for Germany. In fact, during the Battle of Berlin, the Waffen SS were telling the Whermacht infantry to give them their weapons, but the Whermacht denied and shot the Waffen SS soldier. This was a great dishonour to Nazi Germany in its final days because the Waffen SS would of fought to death, whereas those Wehrmacht soldiers would of surrendered.
  The Waffen SS would not of been given the Wehrmachts "hand-me-downs" because they would of been given the best equipment first, in fact, a SS Soldier would of been given blood before a dying Whermacht soldier, that is why the SS had their blood types tattoo'ed on their wrists.
  So the PE was definetly not the Waffen SS.

I think the PE is a part of the SS or better SS is a part of the PE ;)
PE as a part of the Panzer-Lehr-Division ( Bayerlein ) is unpossible because Panzer-Lehr-Division never build up a Kampfgruppe.
I had already write that one of the best indicators is the symbole of the SdKfz. 250.. It looks like the bolt of the 2. SS.-PzKorps ^^
Perhaps PE is the mix out of the 2. SS.-PzKorps, the german Luftwaffen-Units of the Netherlands and the Kampfgruppen around Arnhem  ;D

well we culd all atleast agree that PE is the SS of CoH not nessesarly that they are SS but at ´the curent state this is as close as you get :)

And one more: the Panzer Elite use the Waffen-SS rank insignia.

Lord wrote:

So i think this equipment of the Panzer Elite was chosen because of the theater and the armysituation.
Normaly Waffe-SS gets better equipment then the Wehrmacht e.g. the Tiger:

The Waffen SS receiving the better equipment than the rest of the Wehrmacht... thats a long time myth. Wonder where
people got that from.. ?
Surely the  "Big 4" of the Waffen SS Divisions had good equipment. And yes, LAH, TK and DR had their own Tiger company in Mid War. But afterwards those were detached, and regrouped into the Heavy SS Tank Batllions 101,102 and 103 you named.

Otherwise, take a look equipment lists, compare any given SS Division to the Wehrmachts Divisions...  you wont find
anything "better" there. In contrary, Wehrmacht Elite Divisions like GD and Panzer Lehr were priotirized.

The two SS Panzerdivisions 9 and 10, who were stationed
in the Arnhem area for refitting as Market Garden began ( and this is where the PE is ) were heavily depleted from the Falaise
Pocket disaster and didnt have much new armour.
The Kampfgruppen were thrown together from very different units, trainees and even workers... SS, Heer and Luftwaffe units. So the PE does quite a nice job, reflecting that, with their outdated equipment. ;)


nice site with infos about the german side:
http://www.defendingarnhem.com

the panzer elite are the SS, but they have changed the name. The same happens with the assault troops, they really are SS, but THQ have changed the name

sorry if the text have errors

Last edited August 18, 2009 at 11:33 AM by aviso

aviso wrote:
the panzer elite are the SS, but they have changed the name. The same happens with the assault troops, they really are SS, but THQ have changed the name

sorry if the text have errors

not true
panzer grenadier means soldiers who get unloaded from halftracks amd then fights but mostly they are also elite soldiers while waffen ss in something completely else

I always though of it as a representation of the 130.Panzer-Lehr division, an elite divison in the Heer consisting of tank instructors and veterans of the Eastern front. To me, the only unit that represents the SS at all is the Wehrmacht Stormtroopers.

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mawr wrote:

aviso wrote:
the panzer elite are the SS, but they have changed the name. The same happens with the assault troops, they really are SS, but THQ have changed the name

sorry if the text have errors

not true
panzer grenadier means soldiers who get unloaded from halftracks amd then fights but mostly they are also elite soldiers while waffen ss in something completely else

The SS also had panzergrenadiers.

Last edited March 13, 2010 at 5:12 PM by Ost_Front_Soldat

The Panzer Elite are basically, in my eyes a combination of the Waffen-SS and the panzer divisions "deeper" elements.

The Heer (Wehrmacht) in the game is poor representation of the Heer in my eyes, but overall for a game, it's pretty good.

Also, what someone earlier said about the theater of war, yes that's very true.

Abyssio wrote:
So what do you guys think? Is it true that Waffen-SS is really given left-overs from the Wehrmacht? Or can we say panzergrenadiers and Wehrmacht are actually separate bodies?

PE is a SS panzer corp send to Holland to refit afler fighting in normandy . It was an elite division that lost a lot of heavy equipment. The "left overs" (like the bergetiger) are not from Wehrmacht but from the Falaise pocket. Hitler had promised 200 Panther tanks to them (thats why PE can panther spam) and 7 Fallschirmjaeger regiments supported it so PE is a mix of elite and out of date equipment.
Same thing is with smallarms. Every PE unit has k98 first, later you can get (and spam, unlike wehracht) best rifles, SMG and infantry AT weapons availeble.

In the context of the Opposing Fronts campaigns, it can be said that the Panzer Elite faction is meant to portray the German forces in Operation Market Garden. However this force was assembled from various divisions and units, both Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS, so to say it is one or the other would be incorrect. The Germans in OMG were an ad-hoc formation gathered to resist the Allied advance. Regardless, the Panzer Elite is Relic's adaptatation and technically not historical.

And as for the Waffen-SS, it is a misconception (rather than exaggeration or myth) that it is an elite force. I say misconcetion because theres a small grain of truth: there wre indeed some "elite" units, but these were a small minority, and their "elite" status was not always due to battlefield performance.

The Waffen-SS was in principle the ideological arm of the army (or inversely, the combat arm of the Nazi party on the battlefield). They had separate ranks and hierarchy system, though technically not superior to equivalent Wehrmacht personnel. The AVERAGE SS unit performed unremarkably or was substandard. This is because SS training tended to involve more ideological indoctrination as opposed to military training. Hence the tendency of SS formations to sustain higher casualty rates- fight and die for the Fatherland.

The Waffen-SS's reputation comes more from the brutality and fanaticism of its members along with the more remarkable performance of a few token formations such as the 2nd Panzerkorps at Kharkov. This presumed elite status came from low regard for casualties, lax discipline concerning relationship between enlisted and officers, and high morale rather than excellent combat performance. They also served as a reliable political force for Hitler, and the Wehrmacht tended to see the Waffen-SS as an inferior imitator. They recieved the same equipment as the Whermacht, if not second-rate equipment, and thus did not have the "elite" status of priority in supply and refitting that the Heer's elite Grossdeutschland Divison enjoyed.

The Waffen-SS was overall an under-average fighting force, and the excellence of a few elements served to inflate its reputation. Never judge a book by its cover.

It is however not unreasonable that Hiterl would have intended the Waffen-SS to be the special elite force that it is now seen as. As essentially his private army being the epitomy of the Nazi ideology, only the reality of WW2 prevented it from being the Praetorian formation that may have been envisioned. After all, in the words of Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want.

Last edited April 4, 2010 at 11:25 AM by comrade_daelin

the Waffen-SS was also intended to become the Nazi's elite police force after the war, serving only the political leader(s).

Forgot about that bat- yes, they were basically Hitler's dream-vision of the paramilitary manifestation of the Nazi Party after the war is over. They were supposed to be the next-generation future of the German armed forces- good Aryan stock and loyal only to the Nazis. No wonder the Wehrmacht services saw them with suspicion and contempt- they were a revolutionary modern force that in theory would eventually supplant the traditional German military, with all the Prussian traditional styles and nobility members serving in the officer corps. They might have elight units, but they were far from popular or respected by most of the real army.

a cool unit for Ostheer would be Muslim SS men. Himler recruited many Muslims to fight in the SS on the Eastern Front during the war. He convinced them that many Russians were "Jews". There were lots of Muslims in the Baltics and the Middle East that were still bitter about the outcome of WWI, and were glad to fight.

You wouldnt neccessarily have to call the unit "Muslim," it would be more politically correct to call them, "Serbian" or "Turkish"

comrade2012 wrote:
a cool unit for Ostheer would be Muslim SS men. Himler recruited many Muslims to fight in the SS on the Eastern Front during the war. He convinced them that many Russians were "Jews". There were lots of Muslims in the Baltics and the Middle East that were still bitter about the outcome of WWI, and were glad to fight.

You wouldnt neccessarily have to call the unit "Muslim," it would be more politically correct to call them, "Serbian" or "Turkish"

....perhaps you meant the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) and the 23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian)? ;)

Lots of foreign volunteer formations* were present in the Waffen-SS. Interestingly, there were also Russians among them: 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian) and 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Russian). These were either forcibly conscripted from the POW camps or were civilians/former soldiers who were disillusioned with the Soviets and decided to cast their lots in with the Germans. :o

*It's also interesting to note that volunteer formations within the SS were not strictly adherents of the Nazi ideological perspective, and were not expected to be such (the SS basically relaxed their requirements in order to draw up more and more troops). Hence, the volunteers were referred to with the "Waffen" rank prefix (e.g. Waffen-Hauptsturmführer, 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne [1st French]) instead of "SS" (e.g. SS-Oberscharführer, 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen).

That said, I'm all for the addition of "volunteer" troops for the OH as well...that would make the faction even more unique  ;D ;D ;D

Note: Preferably w/o any references regarding the countries where said "volunteer" troops came from. It'd be better to just generalize them than to start a "my country should be here" argument. Otherwise we'd see Latvians clamoring for the Latvian Legion or Britischers looking to add the British Freikorps ingame.  :P

Last edited May 11, 2010 at 4:10 AM by Werwolf

I Personally think the Panzer Elite is the 7th Fallschrimjager, by the looks of there presence, Company commander [Rl Commander; Firstname Wolfgang?] And there Tactics Etc.

Newbie. wrote:
I Personally think the Panzer Elite is the 7th Fallschrimjager, by the looks of there presence, Company commander [Rl Commander; Firstname Wolfgang?] And there Tactics Etc.

No idea really, but my best bet is with the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich...unit insignia, vehicle types and all.  ;D

PE is a mix of units, much like the WH (Stormtroops description being the combat arm of the nazi political party-aka SS)
PE is loosely based on two things:

For the British campaign, the Panzer Lehr division which was an elite Heer division9hence the name panzer elite)

For the PE campaign, it was based on Kampfgruppe Von Tettau, a force equivalent to seven battalions made up of all manner of German units (including Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, rear echelon and Waffen-SS  troops)

looking at the "Panzer Elite" in COH, i really think about the Blitzkrieg, which relied on highly mobile units.
This is after all a game, remember?
The fact that the PE only deploys light, and commonly Half-track based units, is probaly for the fast and short battles the Blitzkrieg was made for.

woah123 wrote:
  The Kampfgruppe Lehr were probably a direct comparison of the Panzer lehr Division. This was an Elite Whermacht division that, with Grossdeuchland Divisiond, was Hitlers favourite Whermacht divisions. The Waffen SS where much more elite however, and every SS soldier vowed to die for Germany. In fact, during the Battle of Berlin, the Waffen SS were telling the Whermacht infantry to give them their weapons, but the Whermacht denied and shot the Waffen SS soldier. This was a great dishonour to Nazi Germany in its final days because the Waffen SS would of fought to death, whereas those Wehrmacht soldiers would of surrendered.
  The Waffen SS would not of been given the Wehrmachts "hand-me-downs" because they would of been given the best equipment first, in fact, a SS Soldier would of been given blood before a dying Whermacht soldier, that is why the SS had their blood types tattoo'ed on their wrists.
  So the PE was definetly not the Waffen SS.

What the hell is this babble? I demand sources, all of this seems highly unlikely (and phrased like a neo-Nazi would).

i agree with you, it would be nice if we gained some information about the sources, which would make it easier for all of us to believe the things someone tells us (i mostly got mine from Wikipedia, which i trust to maintain the highest possible quality of the given information)
but I'd rather not want anyone to talk about neo-nazi's or make comparisons with them... just keep it to the topic, and, just for once, keep your opinion to yourself.

loatty wrote:
but I'd rather not want anyone to talk about neo-nazi's or make comparisons with them... just keep it to the topic, and, just for once, keep your opinion to yourself.

I'm sorry if I offended you. His tone of voice suggested supreme nazi love affairs.

I thought this topic would end with a quick yes or no...

Probably the answer is:
"SS-like units will be in Ostheer but certainly that won't be their name".

But it isnt about obsteer, the person who made this topic wondered if PE was the Waffen-SS.

:O!! that's right!!! :-[

[quote author=Ost_Front_Soldat link=topic=504.msg30159#msg30159 date=1268500172]
I always though of it as a representation of the 130.Panzer-Lehr division, an elite divison in the Heer consisting of tank instructors and veterans of the Eastern front. To me, the only unit that represents the SS at all is the Wehrmacht Stormtroopers.

And even these stormtroopers are WAFFEN ss

mawr wrote:

Ost_Front_Soldat wrote:
I always though of it as a representation of the 130.Panzer-Lehr division, an elite divison in the Heer consisting of tank instructors and veterans of the Eastern front. To me, the only unit that represents the SS at all is the Wehrmacht Stormtroopers.

And even these stormtroopers are WAFFEN ss

??? Don't tell me you post in this old thread just to quote that and not adding anything else... In either case, topic locked.