First off, Big TY on the PE Balance changes, but just 1 suggestion....

hey there, ive been playing with PE on the vanilla patch for atleast year and a half now, managing to finally get to lvl 12 (yes i do feel proud about that)

now after hearing that you guys changed the faction stats of the of/vanilla factions, i have to give a big congratz on finally changing the those little (and big) quirks that were making this game a headache.


now for my one suggestion to the infantry halftrack.

first off, t1 is undoubtedly the best opening to go with when playing against americans, muni ht is now a more useful unit, supports field presence of PG which is critical for holding territory.

but, what about t2?

thing that always had pe sort of trumped by large blobs of rifles with flamers was lack of a suppression unit, and while relic tried to solve this with the buff to suppression on iht, that was a terrible way to do it.

so i propose this (criticism needed)

infantry halftrack, when first built, has same stats as it does now, but features an upgrade that for 50 munitions, changes the skin of the ht (lets say a bigger gun or another mg42, just to make it look upgraded) and increases the health of the ht by say 50 hitpoints.

also comes with an ability, allowing it to lock down (exactly like a panzer 4)

the time to lockdown and setup is approx 3- 4 secs (slower than wher mg to setup) once lockdown its suppression stats will change, so that it only takes 1.5 - 2 bursts to suppress a group of infantry.

- it only gets suppression buff when its actually locked down, otherwise its stats will be the same as before, but no suppression at all when not locked down.

- its damage is slightly lowered, meaning that it can only suppress infantry in lockdown mode, not insta kill them.

pack up time is about 1.5 seconds, meaning it can still escape if flanked, but wont be able to reposition so easy.

cannot rotate ht once lockdown.

when the upgrade is researched, the infantry ht can no longer transport units, and possibly cannot reinforce them either (this im deciding on)

-cannot transport units while upgrading (meaning u cant do 2pg 2 ht base rush on ami base)



so yes a big wall of text of trying to find a way to get some use out of the ht without turning it into that monster game ender in 5 mins as it was before.

the pros to this idea:

no longer blob wars, flanking is needed to push back a pe player that went t2.

Combined arms with the pgs and iht

reduces pg spam

makes going t2 just as good as t1.


tho i still think with doing this the iht would have to cost 260mp and 25 fuel then, to counter balance its usefulness with the upgrade.


what does everyone think about this? what could possibly be the negatives from doing such a change?


ty ef mods and devs

You want to make IHT as good as an HMG42 (best early game wehrmacht unit) with a skin much better than a bren carrier for only 50 muni that PE has when it starts the game.

Think more about ballance.
Muni halftrack has no weapons, no suppresion and gets destroyed by Stuart as easielly as any 22x skinned vechicle.

You should also know that PGs were designed to work in blobs with their shared vet and group zeal. Its hard not to spam them as they are the only buildable infantry that PE has.

Last edited October 26, 2010 at 11:03 PM by Paciat

T2 is already good in my opinion. I agree with what Paciat said about PGs and the halftrack, which is a very good unit to be honest. It's problem is that BARs penetrate it far too easily and crush it. If ami blobs are getting you down, go T3 and pop out 1-2 ACs, which are awesome in EF.

It's more a problem with PE LVs in general.  Basically none of them really scale into the late game at all, yet they make up half of PEs unit roster.  It's worse against US than British, since at only 60 fuel BARs more or less render the SC, IHT and AC unusable.  Once they a elite infantry, there goes the rest of the PE LV lineup.  British at least have to wait a little longer for a Stuart.

It's often been suggested on other balance forums that some sort of general late game LV update is needed so PE isn't reduced to PG blobs and panthers as their only late game options.  And I've played hundreds of 2v2 AT games as PE; the ATHT is the only LV that retains some sort of late game usefulness.  I've tried many different PE builds, trust me.  Even the British end up with a more diverse late game than PE.

If you really want to seriously fix PE though, the solider armour needs to go one day.  It causes too many problems with US grenades, strafe, and flame.  That others topic, and probably another mod though.

Paciat wrote:
You want to make IHT as good as an HMG42 (best early game wehrmacht unit) with a skin much better than a bren carrier for only 50 muni that PE has when it starts the game.

Think more about ballance.
Muni halftrack has no weapons, no suppresion and gets destroyed by Stuart as easielly as any 22x skinned vechicle.

You should also know that PGs were designed to work in blobs with their shared vet and group zeal. Its hard not to spam them as they are the only buildable infantry that PE has.

well in a sense, yes, that is the choice remains - first g43, or ht upgrade.
even tho it does turn it into a mobile mg, pe could use atleast one non doc suppression unit. and i have personal preference of not doing pg spam.
besides the setup time should be much slower than wehr mg42, so pe has to set up even earlier. and no reinforce no transport on the upgraded ht.

and while muni ht rocks, i dont think anyone would go t1 t2 t4 just to get a ht out when the m8 will be rocking the field a minute later.

so really i dont see a problem, its only meant to be an early game suppression unit, not meant to last past midgame

machz wrote:

Paciat wrote:
Think more about ballance.
Muni halftrack has no weapons, no suppresion and gets destroyed by Stuart as easielly as any 22x skinned vechicle.

well in a sense, yes, that is the choice remains - first g43, or ht upgrade.

The choice remains you can replace 2 k98 rifles with some better rifles or set an MG in an oponents base, than a 2nd one and kill all of his infanty.

Quote
and while muni ht rocks, i dont think anyone would go t1 t2 t4 just to get a ht out when the m8 will be rocking the field a minute later.

T2, shrecks, T1 is all you need vs an M-8. Also M-8 cannot be spammed becouse you need 100 ammo to make it really usefull.

Quote
so really i dont see a problem

You really dont?
Use AT halftrack if you want a do it all, muni hungry early vechicle. It can treadbreak, snipe infantry and it costs only 260MP 15fuel. It can take out M-8s if well microed.
Dont ask me where to get all that ammo. US player had 100 ammo for his M-8 upgrades.

QuoteT2, shrecks, T1 is all you need vs an M-8. Also M-8 cannot be spammed becouse you need 100 ammo to make it really usefull.

You've never actually used PE in competitive play, have you?  There are PE threads with high ranked players on Gamereplays agreeing that shreks are a poor M8 counter because of the poor med-long range accuracy.  AT grenades?  On a M8? Ahahahaha.  PE must get T4 vs. US in 1v1 play.  The ATHT is the only reasonable PE counter to a fast M8, and the ATHT can lose this fight (not sure if this was fixed in EF) if treadbreaker gets a destroyed engine result instead of immobilized.  And if the US player isn't retarded and supports the M8 you will likely need two ATHTs.

And what universe do you play in where people buy the M8 MG upgrade?  I have never seen a good player buy this as they know those munitions are better used on doctrine abilities, RRs, or a 2nd skirted M8.  It's the same reason no skilled player ever makes a Quad.  The M8 performs fine with just a 50 munition investment.

You know, I think I just need to give up making suggestions on the EF balance forums.  I'll leave you guys to your annihilate, high resource bridge maps games then.

lbg wrote:

QuoteT2, shrecks, T1 is all you need vs an M-8. Also M-8 cannot be spammed becouse you need 100 ammo to make it really usefull.

You've never actually used PE in competitive play, have you?  There are PE threads with high ranked players on Gamereplays agreeing that shreks are a poor M8 counter because of the poor med-long range accuracy.  AT grenades?  On a M8? Ahahahaha.  PE must get T4 vs. US in 1v1 play.  The ATHT is the only reasonable PE counter to a fast M8, and the ATHT can lose this fight (not sure if this was fixed in EF) if treadbreaker gets a destroyed engine result instead of immobilized.  And if the US player isn't retarded and supports the M8 you will likely need two ATHTs.

And what universe do you play in where people buy the M8 MG upgrade?  I have never seen a good player buy this as they know those munitions are better used on doctrine abilities, RRs, or a 2nd skirted M8.  It's the same reason no skilled player ever makes a Quad.  The M8 performs fine with just a 50 munition investment.

You know, I think I just need to give up making suggestions on the EF balance forums.  I'll leave you guys to your annihilate, high resource bridge maps games then.

I sense hostility in that post, chill down dude; If you consider is worthless giving suggestions about balance, you shouldn't be posting here.

I don't know why some users need to argue in that provocative way, perhaps they want to show their intelligence? Also, why do you finish with that sentece? Not that you spent a lot of time making suggestions.

Do you think that your claims will be automatically applied to EF? Even a patch isn't released yet...

If you want your suggestions be in EF, keep posting them. If the suggestions are good and fit into EF will be considered. Don't forget that devs read these posts!!

Of course, unless I misread the post...

This lbg guy knows what he's talking about.  I support his posts.

Respectfully, Paciat does not.

It doesn't matter how many suggestions someone makes, as long as that someone knows their stuff.

You can get 1,000 suggestions from a noob and probably only 2-3 are good.

You can get 10 balance suggestions from someone who knows CoH and probably 9 are good.

He finished with that sentence because people who play with those map settings are noobs / compstompers, and should not be talking about balance too much.

I am starting to wonder if you play on those high resource bridge map games too, blackbishop.

Last edited October 29, 2010 at 1:44 AM by Chancellor

Cancellor,

The point is I don't know why he came to that conclusion. And so does you. Perhaps you are talking about another forum, where they listen ALL the users including noobs.

If EF balance were crap, that could have sense, but as that isn't the case I think both of you are overreacting. I mean, is that rant really justified?

It doesn't matters if there's 2,000 noob or good suggestions or if the user "know his/her stuff", Devs have their own criteria and can judge for themselves what's the best for the mod. An expert can come with a great balance suggestion but it doesn't mean will be included ipso facto, it has to fit with EF.

You can never guess when a good idea will show up, that's why users need to post their balance opinions, you'll never know if your idea fits unless you tried; the spamming of "noob suggestions" as you call it, is just an inevitable side effect.

I find your last sentence as a fail trolling attempt.

Last edited October 29, 2010 at 2:57 AM by blackbishop

Woah, things are getting a little toasty in here :P.

First of all, we're all here to express our opinions. They don't become the best course of action until the devs implement them, no matter how good we perceive our own idea to be. I'm guilty of this too.

Next, I actually agree with chancellor and lbg. There should be a level requirement for posting in this section. Balance absolutely cannot be measured in low level games. That said, I believe that Paciat makes the cut but many don't.

Sometimes we differ in opinion and this is clearly the case at the moment. Mines + shreks CAN work but it's a passive solution because you have to rely on the M8 hitting the mine rather than proactively target it with treadbreaker. They're also very good in an infantry halftrack which is also a counter to the M8s kiting.

Also bishop, questioning the expertise behind the opposing argument is a perfectly reasonable debating technique.

Personally I believe shreks are an awful counter to M8s due to the M8 moving modifier, which makes even close range shreks difficult to hit with. For this reason, the ATHT is a must-have unit whenever I play PE.

Some other points that I would like to make are that the AC scales well even after BARs until tanks and AT walls abound and that ami munis are best spent on M8 mines after it hits the field. Also, I definitely agree that soldier armour is the root of all evil but I doubt it'll be changed. I wonder what would happen if you changed it to heroic and tweaked it a bit? Certainly gets rid of the sniper problem at least.

Finally, to quote Jack Nicholson, "Why can't we all just... get along?".

Last edited October 29, 2010 at 4:26 AM by GodlikeDennis

@GodlikeDennis
Perhaps I just misread the post ;D. But yeah, you are right.

In either case, about the OP, I don't think will fit to PE.

Last edited October 29, 2010 at 5:04 AM by blackbishop

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Next, I actually agree with chancellor and lbg. There should be a level requirement for posting in this section. Balance absolutely cannot be measured in low level games. That said, I believe that Paciat makes the cut but many don't.

Thank Dennis.
Thought I was the only one that belived that this IHT mobile MG bunker upgrade that would be OP.
It cannot be sniped, it cannot be killed by Garands flanking, mortars do little dmg to it.
People have no imagination. They pop some wild OP ideas up and think it will fix the whole ballance of the game. IHT costs 20 fuel. US needs 95 fuel to get a cheapest counter to it - 57mm. If someone dosnt understand that than he shouldnt talk about ballance. Rangers or Airborne wont help it fou have onlt 1/2 of a CP.

My point was that that If you have 2-3 shreck squads and US pops out his 1st M-8 you still have time to tech up and win the game. For every M-8 US builds you can place 1 teller mine or 2 muniHT mines. Having a muni HT also helpes becouse you dont have to retreat PGs to reinforce.

As Dennis mentioned the Teller mines rely too much on luck, and if he's good he will be conservative with his M8 and take unlikely paths.  Shrecks are a soft counter.  You will surely need T4 for a hard counter.

I believe that P4 Stub and Panthers are good enough for late game, but what PE really needs is stronger non-doctrinal non-reward indirect fire.

The mortar HT honestly lacks the effective range to be effective against Brit blobs and 17 pounders and even regular AT guns for that matter.  I suggest a slightly longer range for the mortar halftrack and perhaps make the mortar shells land faster.

The reason is because right now it is incredibly hard to kill US AT guns with them; all the American player has to do is move after the first shell (which usually misses) lands near the AT gun.

The mortar HT also needs to get dangerously close to barrage a 17 pounder gun, and if there's British infantry nearby it is almost an impossible task to continue the barrage without getting killed by Piats.

Finally, unless you are extremely lucky and guess the blob's direction, you will never hit a moving blob with the mortar HT.  The mortar shells (especially the burning shell) land years after being launched.

I'm not suggesting a huge increase in range or that the mortar shells land extremely fast; nothing overkill.  Just some slight modifications to it.

Last edited October 30, 2010 at 3:54 AM by Chancellor

Chancellor wrote:
As Dennis mentioned the Teller mines rely too much on luck, and if he's good he will be conservative with his M8 and take unlikely paths.  Shrecks are a soft counter.  You will surely need T4 for a hard counter.

I believe that P4 Stub and Panthers are good enough for late game, but what PE really needs is stronger non-doctrinal non-reward indirect fire.

The mortar HT honestly lacks the effective range to be effective against Brit blobs and 17 pounders and even regular AT guns for that matter.  I suggest a slightly longer range for the mortar halftrack and perhaps make the mortar shells land faster.

The reason is because right now it is incredibly hard to kill US AT guns with them; all the American player has to do is move after the first shell (which usually misses) lands near the AT gun.

The mortar HT also needs to get dangerously close to barrage a 17 pounder gun, and if there's British infantry nearby it is almost an impossible task to continue the barrage without getting killed by Piats.

Finally, unless you are extremely lucky and guess the blob's direction, you will never hit a moving blob with the mortar HT.  The mortar shells (especially the burning shell) land years after being launched.

I'm not suggesting a huge increase in range or that the mortar shells land extremely fast; nothing overkill.  Just some slight modifications to it.

Mortar halftrack is one more dificult units to mocro becouse 3 stuart shots will kill it. On the other hand 3 shreck rockets will kill a Stuart.
I guess it could get a +5 range bonus to match the range of allied mortars or even +15 (wehrmacht 81mm) would be too much becouse all mortars should be deployed behind buildings or hedges. Setting them up in the open should be risky and barraging mortar pits while being repaird - without the danger of counterbarrage seems OP to me.

You didnt say anything about the Mortar HT fuel cost. Its pretty high and it techs you back too much. Fighting shrecks, a PzIV and mortar is easy with a Cromwell/PIAT Roo and a Stuart/Stag.

@machz

Don't forget to add the version tag on the first post's title.

Yeah, mortar fuel cost is an issue. I think it's fine as a unit though. It's actually the second best mortar after the wehr one is it not?

you forget to add Soviet Mortar to it  ;D
and IHT suppress infantry. Just slower then HMG42, but that's the price of protection and mobility.
About Mortar Halftrack - I guess all mortars are designated to bombard static emplacements and units, so I don't see the problem of hitting moving blobs/other units. It's just not designated to do it. And the mortar shells are far more precise if you see target.