Possible Soviet fix vs PE

A lot of people are saying PE is very hard on the Soviets right now.  The main reason is probably the AC and the Soviet weapons support tech system. 

Soviets need to counter the AC just like how Wehrmacht counters M8.  Wehr needs both a PAK and 1-2 shrecks at the same time to counter the M8.  Soviets need both tank hunters AND the AT gun at the same time or else tank hunters will just get kited and AT guns will just get circle strafed.

Proposition:  Currently, the weapons support system separates the tank hunters and the AT gun into 2 different upgrades.  This is really bad because the AC comes fast.  I propose to make the tank hunters and AT gun produce-able right away (no upgrade needed, you should be able to make them once the building is built)  As for the sniper and mortar, they should still require an upgrade, but they should be grouped into a single upgrade.

Constructive feedback is welcome.

Nice thinking. I think there should be 2 upgrades, 1 is the Anti-Tank upgrade(AT,TH) and one should be the Anti-Infantry Upgrade(Snipers,Mortars). 

Seeme wrote:
Nice thinking. I think there should be 2 upgrades, 1 is the Anti-Tank upgrade(AT,TH) and one should be the Anti-Infantry Upgrade(Snipers,Mortars).

What if TH could ambush from light (and heavy) cover? PTRD set up time should be lowered as well.

Ive checked PE 20mm stats and Ive also lerned that its more effective vs airborne armor armor than it is vs infantry.
http://picly.us/coh/Weapon_20mm_PE_Armoured_Car.html
Vet 2 armor change makes TH weaker vs PE AC. Even if on the move.
Its an important ballance issue.

:o

Fix it! I hate losing my games because something in my plan failed!

I think the teching is fine how it is. Either add ambush in cover, which for some reason I thought they had already, or change PTRD vs 22x armour. Possibly do both.

Also help the mosin-nagant out against PE vehicles because then you could actually win in you sit in heavy cover etc. like riflemen. At the moment you may as well be shooting at a panzer.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I think the teching is fine how it is. Either add ambush in cover, which for some reason I thought they had already, or change PTRD vs 22x armour. Possibly do both.

Also help the mosin-nagant out against PE vehicles because then you could actually win in you sit in heavy cover etc. like riflemen. At the moment you may as well be shooting at a panzer.

Bad news for PE. They will be penetrated more than ever in the next path.  :-* ;D :P


Come to think of it ketten is also 22x. Did anyone tried a ketten push (same as bike/jeep push)?

Kettens can't push.  If anything, they get pushed.  :D

ketten push? you mean using ONLY kettenrads? ???

cephalos wrote:
ketten push? you mean using ONLY kettenrads? ???

Not rush, push.

Bike push
How to Bike Push
Jeep push
Jeep Push Volk

Last edited October 13, 2010 at 3:13 PM by Paciat

Penetration of Soviet rifles vs. halftracks would be the most sensible fix.

Although changing the support rax to an AT and AI path wouldn't be a bad idea.  The mortar and TH have no synergy, while the AT gun and TH are meant to work together.

lbg wrote:
Although changing the support rax to an AT and AI path wouldn't be a bad idea.  The mortar and TH have no synergy, while the AT gun and TH are meant to work together.

Yup that would be a good change imo. Actually ive suggested this kind of switch in teching a while ago and i still think that it would be better than this "medium range" and "short range support" as it is right now...though its just my opinion...

It makes more sense to divide it up this way so you DON'T have access to both with one upgrade. If you want the synergy, get both upgrades. It's not like they're dear or anything.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
It makes more sense to divide it up this way so you DON'T have access to both with one upgrade. If you want the synergy, get both upgrades. It's not like they're dear or anything.

I'm not so sure...its in my experience that the AC comes fast and you really need to get both the TH and the AT guns quickly effectively to fend it off.  As I stated, neither can work alone because Tank Hunters get kited and AT guns get circle strafed.  Also if we require an upgrade to unlock these 2 AT units, they might come too late relative to the AC.

Let's say that have TH with ZiS-2 is a good bet, it could be; but not the other feature, how you can allow to build AT guns from scratch? Remember that neither soviet's support center nor barracks costs fuel.

Sorry but this isn't a good idea. You are proposing to give soviets a great advantage, if not a free win ticket over german factions.

I remember read somewhere that someone stated that ZiS-2s(and at guns in general) aren't hardcounter for ACs. Indeed, they deal a good punch, but if not supported, ACs can circle strafe them to death.

Hm...I was unaware that the Soviet WSC building doesn't need fuel to build.  In that case, we should just have an AT upgrade (TH and AT gun) and support weapons upgrade (sniper and mortar)

The upgrades should certainly cost fuel no matter what, but I don't see any massive Soviet advantage from switching things around so you get both AT units from one upgrade.  If you took that upgrade and the PE player doesn't go fast AC, you have wasted resources that could have been put towards a more useful sniper or early vehicle of your own.  It keeps things interesting while giving the Soviets a counter to fast AC without buffing or nerfing anything.

lbg wrote:
The upgrades should certainly cost fuel no matter what, but I don't see any massive Soviet advantage from switching things around so you get both AT units from one upgrade.  If you took that upgrade and the PE player doesn't go fast AC, you have wasted resources that could have been put towards a more useful sniper or early vehicle of your own.  It keeps things interesting while giving the Soviets a counter to fast AC without buffing or nerfing anything.

If youll have both AT guns and PTRD than all you need is to Strelky spam and go straight to light armor. Soviets can than get their without the risk of quick ACs. Right now they need both of these upgrades to play it safe. It would bake most early game PE vechicles useless. Noone would get Mortars and Sharpshooters first becouse once PE player would saw them he would spam SCs or G43 PGs in ITHs and no unit could then save the Soviets asses.

Paciat wrote:

lbg wrote:
The upgrades should certainly cost fuel no matter what, but I don't see any massive Soviet advantage from switching things around so you get both AT units from one upgrade.  If you took that upgrade and the PE player doesn't go fast AC, you have wasted resources that could have been put towards a more useful sniper or early vehicle of your own.  It keeps things interesting while giving the Soviets a counter to fast AC without buffing or nerfing anything.

If youll have both AT guns and PTRD than all you need is to Strelky spam and go straight to light armor. Soviets can than get their without the risk of quick ACs. Right now they need both of these upgrades to play it safe. It would bake most early game PE vechicles useless. Noone would get Mortars and Sharpshooters first becouse once PE player would saw them he would spam SCs or G43 PGs in ITHs and no unit could then save the Soviets asses.

Indeed, your point is clear, thats why I think this suggestion has no future, but I didn't thought about the mortars/sharpshooters issue.

Changing the armor type(from airborne to soldier) is a good solution, otherwise I don't know if they could receive some sort of defensive bonus against ACs.

No.  The point is not clear.  If the PE player goes AC then he can also upgrade PGs to Mp44.  If Soviet makes AT gun and tank hunter (big manpower investment) to counter the AC then he won't have mortar / sniper right away so Mp44 PGs are still an effective force on the field.  If the Soviet then decides to make strelky, PE can always react with 4 man squads.  If the Soviet decides to save up for light tanks instead Mp44s should be able to dominate the field long enough for PE to get their own vehicles.

Blackbishop what is your 1v1 rank?  Don't accuse me of flaming and don't shy from the question.

Oh well ;D, it should be 1, I used to play just with PE. I just went from my profile stats and looks like I just played basic matches, but not ranked games. 3 wins 6 defeats (it should be 4-5 but relic decided that I didn't won one match). Two matches dropped by the opponent(s). One match on scheldt lost(i wanted to knew why was problematic) and three defeats. As my ISP is very problematic, I decided to stop playing PvP, can you imagine being lagged on a game? I avoid to play online because of that. This was nearly two years ago. We just have to play with the tools we have at hand. On a second thought I have played some matches with Seeme but they don't appear on the stats. Enough information? Ok, let's go on topic.

It's already stated that soviets rifles deal less damage than intended to PE vehicles.

By now soviets can have AT/AI units whatever they decide to upgrade, if you change that nothing good will happen, don't you see the inherent danger of allowing an upgrade for AT units and another for AI units? In the end you will need both because you will need a sniper/mortar.

Look at your last post, you actually said why this should not be taken, PE will win easier. Paciat said what could happen if you implement this and choose AI support, you just complemented what he said when you posted that scenario of what will happen if you choose AT support.

That's why I don't like this. That's why each row should have AT/AI instead of just AT or AI.

EDIT:

Looks like this was posted twice. Chancellor remember to add the version tag to the name of the thread.

Last edited October 30, 2010 at 9:01 PM by blackbishop