[1.23]Some comments on the Soviets from a group a CoH vets

First of all, I'd just like to say this is a fantastic mod and is the sole reason my friends and I still play CoH.  Had this been a real expansion pack instead of ToV, we would still be playing automatch today.

After playing numerous games among of group of 4 of us in 1v1 and 2v2s, we have a few insights we'd like to share with the balance team in hopes of further improving this mod.

General Soviet Balance:
-Upgrades not applying until you make a new unit is still a problem with the faction. It's one thing with tanks, but infantry not getting their upgrades makes earning vet with them almost a waste of time.  While maybe not with conscripts since it drastically changes the squad, we really think that infantry and support team upgrades should be applied to the units on the field.


Unit Specific:

Ingenery
These guys are waaaay too weak without their upgrade.  Vet 0 pios own them.  It feels bad ever having to build more than one of them.  They could really use a slight health buff.

Strelky
These guys seem to be worthless.  Without their upgrade, they are worse than vanilla rifles.  With the upgrade, they still die like flies and lack any AT option or grenades.  Vet 3 volks were kicking their asses.  It seems to be better to just skip these guys entirely and use upgraded conscripts and support teams until you get Guards.  There's a lot of ways they could be improved, but they definitely need some sort of help.

Sharpshooter Team
The spotter seems to have an insane crit rate, making him a mini-sniper himself.  His gun should be no better than a support team crewman.

Tank Hunters
We're not sure what the point of these guys are.  They lack the firepower to even scare away an AC.  Going medium-support first with Soviets is pretty much a death-sentence due to lack of effective AT.  Two squads of them were unable to deal with an early AC (tried with both Puma and PE AC).  While they shouldn't be a good solution to heavy tanks, they need to at least be a semi-serious threat to light vehicles.  Weaken their standard rifles if need be to prevent spamming.

Heavy Mortar
Not sure if this is intended or a bug, but the upgraded mortar doesn't get 'bombard' in the current patch.

T70
There's nothing wrong with it, it's just...boring.  Without any sort of upgrade option or special ability there is no reason to look at it past the mid-game.

T90
This thing is a Whirbilwind on crack.  It auto-pins all hostile infantry in an instant, and murders weapon teams.  We think the huge aoe is the main problem here.

SU85
The upgrade costs far too much, and the unit is very sup-par until you upgrade it.  It costs more fuel than a StuG, yet is too weak to survive a tank battle with just about anything that can fire back.  Suggest lowering the upgrade cost.

AT Gun
It's okay overall, but the performance gap between the upgraded one and the normal one is kind of severe.  It's generally not worth building until you buy the upgrade, though fortunately it is pretty cheap.  Consider making the non-upgraded one a little more accurate.

Sherman 105
Not a Soviet unit, but a just wanted to mention that this is the only reward unit that is better 10 times out of 10 than the original.  But maybe that was your point seeing as the croc is considered the worst unit the game by many.


Doctrines:
Propaganda Strategy
-We call this the 'bridge map doctrine', as it seems to be a poor choice for 1v1 or even proper 2v2 play.  The LHS is flat out horrible, and RHS is only salvaged by the rocket trucks.  God of War is lol, but comes so late it is rarely a game-changer.  The early abilities need to be much more relevant to competitive play.

Urban Combat
-Steamroller is an Awesome but Impractical unit.  It's way too slow and expensive to be useful outside of small maps.  It could use a little more speed.
-Partisans are a tad too strong.  It's basically a commando squad that deploys like FSJs, can set booby traps, and cloak.  It's fine that they're powerful, but the cost needs to reflect this.

Breakthrough
-Call-in Sherman needs to go.  The doctrine already has tankriders for a call-in tank.  It does not need one of both sides
-Mechanics aren't worth their cost.  If they could do something other than repair, it would be fine.  I would suggest either giving them the ability to lay mines or give them over-repair.
-Juggernaut needs to be a once-per-game call-in.  It is clearly better than a Tiger or Pershing, and should also be considered rare enough that the Soviets can't keep sending them in.  It's cool that it is so powerful, and would much rather see it be a one-time monster than be nerfed to keep it as a 'limit of 1' unit.

Again, fantastic mod.  We hope you find these insights useful for future considerations.

Ok my thoughts

Ingenery:
Yeah they're weak but, on the other hand you can spam them so i feel this compensates some what for their relative weakness. 

Strelky:
Agreed, i tend to skip straight to the Red Banner version as well.  That said i find the RB Strelky very useful if teamed with other things. 

Sharpshooter team:
Agreed, they need a nerf badly. 

Tank Hunters:
I actually find them very effective as long as you blob them.  Again though, you have to blob with them otherwise they suck.

Heavy mortar:
I'm happy with it

T-70
Totally agree but, don't fix what isn't broken!

T-90
I think that the last patch went some way to fixing this. 

SU85
It depends how you use it, its meant to snipe other tanks rather than go toe to toe with them.

At gun:
I think its fine as is.

Sherman 105:
Agreed

Propaganda:
Well personally i think the ability to build MG nests+ trenches make this essential for team games.  Gow needs a fix badly though and i think the dev's plan to do that next patch. 

Urban Combat:
Tbh i think its ok at the moment.

Breakthrough:
Hmm, the RHS does need some work, the Sherman should be made cheaper though rather than simply dropped.
Mechanics need a buff i agree!
I disagree about the Juggernaut though, i thinks its fine.  Its lack of any infantry protection makes perfectly balanced imo.  ;D

I think the sherman 105 should replace the calliope instead of the croc. I prefer that the croc's main cannon works allowing to have a pure AI tank(perhaps as an upgrade like bulldozer, reloads slower for balance), if you upgrade normal shermans to AT(76mm upgrade) you still have a valuable AI tank, the brits churchil works in that way, why not the croc?

Besides I think the bulldozer doesn't fit this tank ;).

lbg wrote:
First of all, I'd just like to say this is a fantastic mod and is the sole reason my friends and I still play CoH.  Had this been a real expansion pack instead of ToV, we would still be playing automatch today.

After playing numerous games among of group of 4 of us in 1v1 and 2v2s, we have a few insights we'd like to share with the balance team in hopes of further improving this mod.

General Soviet Balance:
-Upgrades not applying until you make a new unit is still a problem with the faction. It's one thing with tanks, but infantry not getting their upgrades makes earning vet with them almost a waste of time.  While maybe not with conscripts since it drastically changes the squad, we really think that infantry and support team upgrades should be applied to the units on the field.

The only unupgraded unit that gets obsolete is T-34. All other units are still usefull in late game.

Quote
Unit Specific:

Ingenery
These guys are waaaay too weak without their upgrade.  Vet 0 pios own them.  It feels bad ever having to build more than one of them.  They could really use a slight health buff.

They can kill a pio squad and get sattle charges after upgrading (normal engiees too).

Quote
Strelky
These guys seem to be worthless.  Without their upgrade, they are worse than vanilla rifles.  With the upgrade, they still die like flies and lack any AT option or grenades.  Vet 3 volks were kicking their asses.  It seems to be better to just skip these guys entirely and use upgraded conscripts and support teams until you get Guards.  There's a lot of ways they could be improved, but they definitely need some sort of help.

Strelky useless?
1.5 capping speed and airborne armor. +10% acc bouns and +15% to dmg. Their better than Volks (Airborne armor works best when you move youre units).

Quote
Sharpshooter Team
The spotter seems to have an insane crit rate, making him a mini-sniper himself.  His gun should be no better than a support team crewman.

Next patch will probably nerf this unit.

Quote
Tank Hunters
We're not sure what the point of these guys are.  They lack the firepower to even scare away an AC.  Going medium-support first with Soviets is pretty much a death-sentence due to lack of effective AT.  Two squads of them were unable to deal with an early AC (tried with both Puma and PE AC).  While they shouldn't be a good solution to heavy tanks, they need to at least be a semi-serious threat to light vehicles.  Weaken their standard rifles if need be to prevent spamming.

Their role on the battlefield is the same as Rangers (without SMGs). They can defend AT-gun from flanking ACs and give some extra firepower vs infantry. Again airborne armor at vet 2.

Quote
Heavy Mortar
Not sure if this is intended or a bug, but the upgraded mortar doesn't get 'bombard' in the current patch.

Its hard to load theseb 12cm rounds fast. :)

Quote
T70
There's nothing wrong with it, it's just...boring.  Without any sort of upgrade option or special ability there is no reason to look at it past the mid-game.

T90
This thing is a Whirbilwind on crack.  It auto-pins all hostile infantry in an instant, and murders weapon teams.  We think the huge aoe is the main problem here.

I also hate that one of the best WWII light tanks is inferior to a AA version that was never mass produced.
The Patch "1.23 T90 sighted,ALARM!!' sais it all. Soviets need a vechicle with an MG. They dont have a canister shot or a turret MG upgrade.

Quote
SU85
The upgrade costs far too much, and the unit is very sup-par until you upgrade it.  It costs more fuel than a StuG, yet is too weak to survive a tank battle with just about anything that can fire back.  Suggest lowering the upgrade cost.

Try it out vs a StugIV. :P It has Hetzer armor but far better gun.

Quote
AT Gun
It's okay overall, but the performance gap between the upgraded one and the normal one is kind of severe.  It's generally not worth building until you buy the upgrade, though fortunately it is pretty cheap.  Consider making the non-upgraded one a little more accurate.

Why would you need the upgrade for if an unupgraded version had the same offensive stats?

Quote
Sherman 105
Not a Soviet unit, but a just wanted to mention that this is the only reward unit that is better 10 times out of 10 than the original.  But maybe that was your point seeing as the croc is considered the worst unit the game by many.

Far better than a doctrinal StuH...

Quote
God of War is lol, but comes so late it is rarely a game-changer.  The early abilities need to be much more relevant to competitive play.

True. There allready were some topics about that

Quote
Urban Combat
-Steamroller is an Awesome but Impractical unit.  It's way too slow and expensive to be useful outside of small maps.  It could use a little more speed.

Than use the Sniper Ace. KV-2 is a Soviet bunker and AT gun killer. Nothing else.

Quote
-Partisans are a tad too strong.  It's basically a commando squad that deploys like FSJs, can set booby traps, and cloak.  It's fine that they're powerful, but the cost needs to reflect this.

2 Commando squads will win with 3 Partisant squads. The cost is fine.

Quote
Breakthrough
-Call-in Sherman needs to go.  The doctrine already has tankriders for a call-in tank.  It does not need one of both sides
-Mechanics aren't worth their cost.

True.

Quote
-Juggernaut needs to be a once-per-game call-in.  It is clearly better than a Tiger or Pershing, and should also be considered rare enough that the Soviets can't keep sending them in.  It's cool that it is so powerful, and would much rather see it be a one-time monster than be nerfed to keep it as a 'limit of 1' unit.

Get a Panther and circlestrafe. Pershing will win with a Panther but SU-152 is too slow.

Quote
Again, fantastic mod.  We hope you find these insights useful for future considerations.

IMO some of those were good sugestions. You know COH mechanics so I hope Ill see you at some ballance discusion.

Last edited October 5, 2010 at 6:30 PM by Paciat

lbg wrote:
Ingenery
These guys are waaaay too weak without their upgrade.  Vet 0 pios own them.  It feels bad ever having to build more than one of them.  They could really use a slight health buff.

I would like if they won against pios on long range and in couver. They would still be weaker than pioniers, but now you would not have to run away everytime you see a unit. I think the best way to do this is to give them more health like you said.

lbg wrote:
AT Gun
It's okay overall, but the performance gap between the upgraded one and the normal one is kind of severe.  It's generally not worth building until you buy the upgrade, though fortunately it is pretty cheap.  Consider making the non-upgraded one a little more accurate.

+1

lbg wrote:
Sherman 105
Not a Soviet unit, but a just wanted to mention that this is the only reward unit that is better 10 times out of 10 than the original. But maybe that was your point seeing as the croc is considered the worst unit the game by many.

let it replace another tank, maybe the calliope or make it not replace a tank at all and just another unit.

lbg wrote:
Propaganda Strategy
-We call this the 'bridge map doctrine', as it seems to be a poor choice for 1v1 or even proper 2v2 play. The LHS is flat out horrible, and RHS is only salvaged by the rocket trucks.  God of War is lol, but comes so late it is rarely a game-changer.  The early abilities need to be much more relevant to competitive play.

I just suggested to make the LHS cost fewer CPs. and yes GoW need a fix. An a good fix would be not to fix it and instead replace it with another ability.

lbg wrote:
Urban Combat
-Steamroller is an Awesome but Impractical unit.  It's way too slow and expensive to be useful outside of small maps. It could use a little more speed.
-Partisans are a tad too strong.  It's basically a commando squad that deploys like FSJs, can set booby traps, and cloak.  It's fine that they're powerful, but the cost needs to reflect this.

When you think about how late the steamroller come out and how expensive it is than it seams stupid that it is only good vs. AT-guns and bunkers. So I agree. I see the partisans as stealth unit that makes lay traps for the enemy and see in that perspective I think they have too much combat strength a small nerf is needed. I would like to add that the LHS i addition should be made a little cheaper.

lbg wrote:
Breakthrough
-Call-in Sherman needs to go.  The doctrine already has tankriders for a call-in tank.  It does not need one of both sides
-Mechanics aren't worth their cost.  If they could do something other than repair, it would be fine.  I would suggest either giving them the ability to lay mines or give them over-repair.
-Juggernaut needs to be a once-per-game call-in.  It is clearly better than a Tiger or Pershing, and should also be considered rare enough that the Soviets can't keep sending them in.  It's cool that it is so powerful, and would much rather see it be a one-time monster than be nerfed to keep it as a 'limit of 1' unit.

Call in Sherman should not go, but be an replace another tank.
Mechanics are a cool unit, but need a buff. The two you suggested sounds good to me. Some alternatives could be. Cheaper, Minesweape upgrade, let them repair faster. But keep them as a none combat unit.
I think the Juggernaut is fine.

I could take every Unit and Spend 10 Minutes to explain them, or I could say:

Everything has a reason for being weak and strong

Thanks for taking the time to write this, and you clearly know what you're talking about which is a breath of fresh air. I have to agree with Paciat for the majority of his points though.

lbg wrote:
First of all, I'd just like to say this is a fantastic mod and is the sole reason my friends and I still play CoH.  Had this been a real expansion pack instead of ToV, we would still be playing automatch today.

After playing numerous games among of group of 4 of us in 1v1 and 2v2s, we have a few insights we'd like to share with the balance team in hopes of further improving this mod.

General Soviet Balance:
-Upgrades not applying until you make a new unit is still a problem with the faction. It's one thing with tanks, but infantry not getting their upgrades makes earning vet with them almost a waste of time.  While maybe not with conscripts since it drastically changes the squad, we really think that infantry and support team upgrades should be applied to the units on the field.

Many of the unit upgrades (T-34, strelky etc) are so powerful it's like a whole new unit with a different function. The Soviets have about twice the unit pool as any other faction as a result. The upgrades are simply too strong to work retroactively. They also work well in geling with Soviet teching choices, much like wehrmacht vet.

Unit Specific:

Ingenery
These guys are waaaay too weak without their upgrade.  Vet 0 pios own them.  It feels bad ever having to build more than one of them.  They could really use a slight health buff.
Ingenery/Pio balance is similar to volks/rifles. Win at long range, lose at short. Player with greatest micro wins. Also, unlike pios without flamers, ingenery can actually add quite a decent punch to your field army because they can fire from the relative safety of long range and do quite decent damage.

Strelky
These guys seem to be worthless.  Without their upgrade, they are worse than vanilla rifles.  With the upgrade, they still die like flies and lack any AT option or grenades.  Vet 3 volks were kicking their asses.  It seems to be better to just skip these guys entirely and use upgraded conscripts and support teams until you get Guards.  There's a lot of ways they could be improved, but they definitely need some sort of help.
Strelky out-of-the-box are actually better than a gren squad, for a cheaper price. They are also less vulnerable to snipers, arty and other squad gib weapons. Their upgrade is so substantial that it's one of the only Russian upgrades that costs additional munitions. As Paciat said, airborne armour is extremely good on the move, and they have A LOT of SMGs, and their LMGs are actually very powerful as well if you choose those. Their vet is quite decent as well, especially when combined with command squad global vet.

Sharpshooter Team
The spotter seems to have an insane crit rate, making him a mini-sniper himself.  His gun should be no better than a support team crewman.
Already being addressed we believe.

Tank Hunters
We're not sure what the point of these guys are.  They lack the firepower to even scare away an AC.  Going medium-support first with Soviets is pretty much a death-sentence due to lack of effective AT.  Two squads of them were unable to deal with an early AC (tried with both Puma and PE AC).  While they shouldn't be a good solution to heavy tanks, they need to at least be a semi-serious threat to light vehicles.  Weaken their standard rifles if need be to prevent spamming.
Tank hunters are the cheapest AT squad in the game. They come early, with AT mines, nades and an accurate rifle that has good penetration. They do little damage, but they fire fast. Use them as any other infantry AT squad, support AT guns or use mines as a mobility kill. Their AT nades are actually EXTREMELY powerful as well (and free). So use lots of those.

Heavy Mortar
Not sure if this is intended or a bug, but the upgraded mortar doesn't get 'bombard' in the current patch.
It's intended, but I'm not sure why. Use attack ground.

T70
There's nothing wrong with it, it's just...boring.  Without any sort of upgrade option or special ability there is no reason to look at it past the mid-game.
Agreed, I always go for the T90 unless there's a sniper that needs hunting (they have a detection radius). In previous patches I would go them when I needed added bunker damage but T90s are insane against bunkers now. They need a little extra something, like maybe a flamethrower upgrade?

T90
This thing is a Whirbilwind on crack.  It auto-pins all hostile infantry in an instant, and murders weapon teams.  We think the huge aoe is the main problem here.
Yeah, it's still a little too strong. I think both damage, AoE and suppression values are all still too high.

SU85
The upgrade costs far too much, and the unit is very sup-par until you upgrade it.  It costs more fuel than a StuG, yet is too weak to survive a tank battle with just about anything that can fire back.  Suggest lowering the upgrade cost.
People on this forum should already know my opinion on this unit. I think it's far too good. It's gun penetrates any German tank with ease and it has surprisingly good front armour. The SU-100 is actually rather pointless because the 85 already penetrates everything well.

AT Gun
It's okay overall, but the performance gap between the upgraded one and the normal one is kind of severe.  It's generally not worth building until you buy the upgrade, though fortunately it is pretty cheap.  Consider making the non-upgraded one a little more accurate.
Never use the unupgraded one so can't really comment. The upgrade is cheap, so if I know I'm going AT guns I get it every time.

Sherman 105
Not a Soviet unit, but a just wanted to mention that this is the only reward unit that is better 10 times out of 10 than the original.  But maybe that was your point seeing as the croc is considered the worst unit the game by many.
Yeah, easiest reward unit decision in the game. I disagree with Paciat about the StuH, they're good.


Doctrines:
Propaganda Strategy
-We call this the 'bridge map doctrine', as it seems to be a poor choice for 1v1 or even proper 2v2 play.  The LHS is flat out horrible, and RHS is only salvaged by the rocket trucks.  God of War is lol, but comes so late it is rarely a game-changer.  The early abilities need to be much more relevant to competitive play.
The red tide is actually one of the best powers in the game in my opinion. For the motherland is also quite good. Kats are god. My problem with prop is the same as yours though. GoW is awful and there's a lack of early viability. I proposed a while back that MGs/trenches be combined into the one power on RHS and a new FTFL/Inspired assault type power be added to LHS.

Urban Combat
-Steamroller is an Awesome but Impractical unit.  It's way too slow and expensive to be useful outside of small maps.  It could use a little more speed.
-Partisans are a tad too strong.  It's basically a commando squad that deploys like FSJs, can set booby traps, and cloak.  It's fine that they're powerful, but the cost needs to reflect this.
Both steamroller and partisans are fine. Steamroller is an excellent bunker buster, base wrecker, mobile suppression fortress and blob crusher :). It also does a lot of damage to tanks with a direct hit. You have to remeber it's awesome suppression when you consider that it should not be allowed to be all over the map at once. Partisans have very low health and are most useful for popping out of a building to flank an MG during your frontal assault. They're not very good field troops though.

Breakthrough
-Call-in Sherman needs to go.  The doctrine already has tankriders for a call-in tank.  It does not need one of both sides
-Mechanics aren't worth their cost.  If they could do something other than repair, it would be fine.  I would suggest either giving them the ability to lay mines or give them over-repair.
-Juggernaut needs to be a once-per-game call-in.  It is clearly better than a Tiger or Pershing, and should also be considered rare enough that the Soviets can't keep sending them in.  It's cool that it is so powerful, and would much rather see it be a one-time monster than be nerfed to keep it as a 'limit of 1' unit.
I don't like Breakthrough so I won't comment. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the IL-2 strike though.

Again, fantastic mod.  We hope you find these insights useful for future considerations.

Please add your name to the Relic Online names list in the general discussion (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3419.0) and I look forward to playing some games against you and your friends.

Last edited October 6, 2010 at 3:18 AM by GodlikeDennis

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Sherman 105
Not a Soviet unit, but a just wanted to mention that this is the only reward unit that is better 10 times out of 10 than the original.  But maybe that was your point seeing as the croc is considered the worst unit the game by many.
Yeah, easiest reward unit decision in the game. I disagree with Paciat about the StuH, they're good.

Sure, StuH are usefull but Sherman 105, Churchill AVRE or KV-2 are much better. A StuH has 400HP while a Sherman with a dozer upgrade  (+10% to HP) or a Churchill 700HP.

StuH has 4 pop. Sherman 105 has 8 pop.

---

Post Merge: [time]1286346949[/time]

---

StuH has 4 pop. Sherman 105 has 8 pop.
! Oh, detail. STUH is 600 MP. Sherman 105 is 395 MP/125 fuel.
Personally, I think the Sherman 105 should have a VAST increase
in cost, as compared to the Crocodile. Also more pop.

Perhaps 500 MP/125FU 10 POP?
THEN it won't be as much of an easy decision ;)

Last edited October 6, 2010 at 6:35 AM by Loupblanc

That still doesn't fix the fact that the croc is a pile of dung.

Why is the Croc perceived to be so shit?  IMO its really strong against vetted Wehr soldiers, due to the fact that elite armor is made of wood.  If the Croc is shit, then the flamenwerfer halftrack upgrade is truly useless too.

Chancellor wrote:
If the Croc is shit, then the flamenwerfer halftrack upgrade is truly useless too.

It is to me, lol.

...heres a funny video about the Croc:
Company of Heroes: Crocodile Hunter!

Hehe... Crocs Are funny...

The croc is hilariously worthless.  I've had two single-shrek gren squads go against one and come out with 2 dead grens (as in two squad members) and one dead 110 fuel pos tank.  Poor damage, poor range, Crippling Overspecialization.  It's not even good vs. bunkers (as in actually destroying the bunker; which makes realism sense but further hurts the croc usefulness).  You are better off with a normal Sherman every time, or in EF the Sherman 105.

Thanks for the discussion and replies.  To respond to some of the other comments:

Ingenery/Pio balance is similar to volks/rifles. Win at long range, lose at short. Player with greatest micro wins. Also, unlike pios without flamers, ingenery can actually add quite a decent punch to your field army because they can fire from the relative safety of long range and do quite decent damage.
Except just like one volks vs. one rifleman the volks can't actually stop the rifles from charging them, resulting in the volks - or in this case Ingenery - losing most of the time.  This would be fine if the cost was the same, put the pios are significantly cheaper and yet have the advantage.  I know nobody wants to repeat of the early version where ingenery could spank vetted grenadiers, but I think a little bit more health would be in order here.  They're so fragile I usually just leave these guys in my base after initial capping is done just so I won't have to build another one.

Strelky out-of-the-box are actually better than a gren squad, for a cheaper price. They are also less vulnerable to snipers, arty and other squad gib weapons. Their upgrade is so substantial that it's one of the only Russian upgrades that costs additional munitions. As Paciat said, airborne armour is extremely good on the move, and they have A LOT of SMGs, and their LMGs are actually very powerful as well if you choose those. Their vet is quite decent as well, especially when combined with command squad global vet.
Odd, because we're not seeing this in our games.  I'll take everyone's word for it that they are as good or better than vet 0 grenadiers;  The people I usually play have very good micro with support teams though, so I suppose the suppression breaking and grenades of the other infantry options skew my opinion of them.

Tank hunters are the cheapest AT squad in the game. They come early, with AT mines, nades and an accurate rifle that has good penetration. They do little damage, but they fire fast. Use them as any other infantry AT squad, support AT guns or use mines as a mobility kill. Their AT nades are actually EXTREMELY powerful as well (and free). So use lots of those.
lol, they have mines?  I didn't even see that.  But anyway, we've played test games where I told the other guy I was going fast AC (PE) on him.  He tried the Tank Hunters over the AT gun.  It was a slaughter.  This is a guy who was rank 13+ in 1v1 auto so I don't think his micro is suspect.  AT nades don't help against people who can kite.  They fare even worse against an Ostwind or PIV.  They're a little better with the upgrade, but I really think they need a damage modifier vs. light vehicles.  It seems to be a larger issues vs. PE, as car spam vs. Soviets seems to be too much for them from our tests.

People on this forum should already know my opinion on this unit. I think it's far too good. It's gun penetrates any German tank with ease and it has surprisingly good front armour. The SU-100 is actually rather pointless because the 85 already penetrates everything well.
Hmm, I'll have to try it out more then.

Partisans have very low health and are most useful for popping out of a building to flank an MG during your frontal assault. They're not very good field troops though.
The larger problem we have with them is that they can easily get into a base are start setting det packs.  Commandos can too, but they at least cost 560MP (? I think).  At close range, they can do some severe damage to any squads coming back to try and stop them.  Yeah, you're doing it wrong if you think they're assault grenadiers though.  Used in the same role as FSJs or commandos though, they seem to be better for less cost.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the IL-2 strike though.
Oh, right.  I don't use it much either.  Seems as silly as GoW though.

My Relic Account is lbgsloan and have it set to the Vancouver channel by default when I'm on.  We have 4 people in total who play EF regularly, so if anyone is interested in 2v2s or 3v3s we can certainly try to get something going.

Last edited October 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM by lbg

lbg wrote:
Tank hunters are the cheapest AT squad in the game. They come early, with AT mines, nades and an accurate rifle that has good penetration. They do little damage, but they fire fast. Use them as any other infantry AT squad, support AT guns or use mines as a mobility kill. Their AT nades are actually EXTREMELY powerful as well (and free). So use lots of those.
lol, they have mines?  I didn't even see that.  But anyway, we've played test games where I told the other guy I was going fast AC (PE) on him.  He tried the Tank Hunters over the AT gun.  It was a slaughter.  This is a guy who was rank 13+ in 1v1 auto so I don't think his micro is suspect.  AT nades don't help against people who can kite.  They fare even worse against an Ostwind or PIV.  They're a little better with the upgrade, but I really think they need a damage modifier vs. light vehicles.  It seems to be a larger issues vs. PE, as car spam vs. Soviets seems to be too much for them from our tests.

PTRD is a "modified bazooka". Same penetration stats, same dmg modifiers (1,6 vs a PzIV, 1,5 vs a Panther, 0,75 vs Stug with shirts...) Better accuracy but lower (allmost 0) accuracy vs infantry. 1/3 of bazookas dmg but 1/3 of its reload time.
All infantry (Rangers and AT guns too) can be kited. Tank hunters die quicker becouse their cheaper than Rangers. You shouldnt expect that AT infantry will allways win vs a anti infantry vechicle. On open fields vechicles and AT guns are better.

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Partisans have very low health and are most useful for popping out of a building to flank an MG during your frontal assault. They're not very good field troops though.

Theyre not FJ or Commandos. They can decrew a PAK, but cant recapture it. They arent too efective at long or at close range becouse they use different types of weapons (PPSH, MP40, rifles). Booby traps arent as good as Commando bombs, they have no nades. Thats why theyre so cheap.

lbg wrote:
Tank hunters are the cheapest AT squad in the game. They come early, with AT mines, nades and an accurate rifle that has good penetration. They do little damage, but they fire fast. Use them as any other infantry AT squad, support AT guns or use mines as a mobility kill. Their AT nades are actually EXTREMELY powerful as well (and free). So use lots of those.
lol, they have mines?  I didn't even see that.  But anyway, we've played test games where I told the other guy I was going fast AC (PE) on him.  He tried the Tank Hunters over the AT gun.  It was a slaughter.  This is a guy who was rank 13+ in 1v1 auto so I don't think his micro is suspect.  AT nades don't help against people who can kite.  They fare even worse against an Ostwind or PIV.  They're a little better with the upgrade, but I really think they need a damage modifier vs. light vehicles.  It seems to be a larger issues vs. PE, as car spam vs. Soviets seems to be too much for them from our tests.

Soviets have lots of problems against PE atm. Their basic rifles have very poor penetration against halftracks and ACs. Also, remember that )PE ACs in EF have quite a lot more health than vCoH.

The mines are essential. Soviet players will usually be swimming in munitions so it's good to lay down some of their specialised AT mines which pretty much cause guaranteed engine damage/destroyed. Then you move in with AT nades. Of course kiting is a factor, but the mobility kill from mines nullifies that. Also, THs are better at sitting in cover than other infantry AT because they have excellent range and accuracy, and they don't seem to have to shrek/bazooka dance when they fire (aim time must be less or something) so they stay there.

Last edited October 7, 2010 at 2:19 AM by GodlikeDennis

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Soviets have lots of problems against PE atm. Their basic rifles have very poor penetration against halftracks and ACs. Also, remember that )PE ACs in EF have quite a lot more health than vCoH.

Didnt know that.
It sucks that US ACs without upgrades/vet have ~100 HP less. PE AC also recives a small (+15) HP bonus at vet 1, no matter if you choose def. or off. vet.

Yeah, I've played a few more PE vs. Soviet and this seems to nearly unwinnable for Soviets.  Fast tier 3 for early AC and MP44 seems to break the soviets every time, as there's really no tech path that gives you an answer to both.  T70 might be a option, but if you skip support rax you're stuck with nothing but conscripts.  It's not a huge strech for the PE to get an ATHT out after an AC either, which is a hard counter to a T70.  They are in dire need of better midgame anti-LV options.

Kinda off Topic - But I was just thinking why doesn't the reward Sherman be non-micro (since I am assuming it represents lend-lease) Only responding to orders after a 15 second delay or so??  :P

No.

Nein

No way.

Jagged wrote:
Kinda off Topic - But I was just thinking why doesn't the reward Sherman be non-micro (since I am assuming it represents lend-lease) Only responding to orders after a 15 second delay or so??  :P

No.

Combo breaker!!!
Becouse COH is about unit micro more, than about anything else.
...and becouse this delay has no sense.

15 seconds???? Do you have any idea about how much time that is in the game?
If you had said 1 or 2 seconds I would still say no because I think it would take EF in the wrong direaction, but 15 seconds that just seems like a bad joke.

SavageWorld wrote:
15 seconds???? Do you have any idea about how much time that is in the game?

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...a lot of time in COH... unless youre a noob. ;D :P

Last edited December 2, 2010 at 7:07 AM by Paciat

In 15 senconds I could teach my mom how to get a tank out of range and than wacth her do it. I think it is a long time even if you are a n00b.

If all COH was Like that I would I returned the Game instantly.

[color=orange]I agree a 15 sec delay is huge in this game. As for getting back on topics. I agree that the Ingenery  definitely need more health to survive early game. The Strelky usually don't survive fights before there upgrade (This is just from my experience). I also think the propaganda doctrine needs work. Red tide is ok but the bunkers and trench ability should be one. Also as stated many times in these forums...god of war needs work or replacement.

i actually like the call in sherman a lot
it quickly vets up and then it can take on Stugs and Pumas
well but i agree, soviets are quite weak vs PE

Against PE the urban combat doctrine is the strongest counter. I play with my friend and always loose. Theres the sniper ace, its a nightmare to hunt down, if youre opponent is using it smart, I think it's way OP. AC rush? lol The commissar squad takes down the Armoured cars, and the PE is depending on infantry units, mass snipers and Vasilij can kill a whole army. And if the infantrys down mass Tank Hunter squads kills you. I never felt so hopless against the Russans in 1v1 than other factions, with PE. And if it's not enugh there's the partisans with Russans, it can hold up long enough to tech up, and then you're done, lost the match. It's my experience, with PE, Urban Combat doctrine wins, when my friend tried out the others he loose, or I could turn the tide of the match.
Anyways, it's a great mod hope it will be the No.1 in moddb. ;)

TheReaper wrote:
AC rush? lol The commissar squad takes down the Armoured cars,

What? Scout cars maybe but not ACs. With luftwaffe fast repair ACs can drain Soviet manpower quickly. You can use a Scout Car and Armored car combo too (less fuel). SC can push infantry out of cover.
Dont worry about Sharpshooters, 1.24 will probably nerf them.

I personally like going heavy T2 luft. Halftracks are currently very good against Soviets. Falls utterly dominate infantry. Put shreks in halftracks against tanks. Go T4 for treadbreak/P4. Then tech for panthers.

Thanks Paciat, GodlikeDennis for the tips. And lol, I mixed up the SC and AC, the AC has a 20mm gun (a la Puma).

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Yay! It worked. Thou I noticed a bug with the snipers: you can't force retreat them while in lock-down.

Last edited December 7, 2010 at 2:13 PM by TheReaper

Thats because there locked down.

Seeme wrote:
Thats because there locked down.

I mean WE propaganda can't force retreat them. The ammo is going out to the dumpster.

same with piat ambush i think
allthough i guess it has been removed anyway
But about TheReaper again: PE crushes soviets, they cant kill grens early and they get obliberated by mortar halftracks
i won a few games vs PE but only cause my enemys played bad and lost a lot of light vehicles to my call in sherman

Pauly3 wrote:
same with piat ambush i think
allthough i guess it has been removed anyway
But about TheReaper again: PE crushes soviets, they cant kill grens early and they get obliberated by mortar halftracks
i won a few games vs PE but only cause my enemys played bad and lost a lot of light vehicles to my call in sherman

You're right. But I totally forgot about SCs and ACs. I didn't used it against the US (BAR and M8), and Brits (Stuart), and I went to P4 or Marder and inf upgrades.
An annoying thing is with the soviets, that I can't crush them. This the story: I played 1v1 and I was on the loose. My opponent got rushed in a blob of (upgraded) Tank Hunters, and it was a desperate move: "Hey, let's try to crush them!" But I couldn't. It was so annoying that unvetted soldiers uncrushable. I don't think that the plus PTRD man make the squad invincible. And I know that is bold move to go panthers against Tank Hunters, but that was quick idea to turn the tide, coz he had nothing. For example the IS2 crushed even the Knight Cross Holders as it touches the infanrty. I know I'm not expert CoH player but this little things I think ridicilous. Don't take to offense, I just write my experience.

I can't recall ever having difficulty crushing Soviet troops when I've had too. Do you mean they jump out of the way or that they touch the tank/go through while not dying?

TheReaper wrote:

Pauly3 wrote:
same with piat ambush i think
allthough i guess it has been removed anyway
But about TheReaper again: PE crushes soviets, they cant kill grens early and they get obliberated by mortar halftracks
i won a few games vs PE but only cause my enemys played bad and lost a lot of light vehicles to my call in sherman

You're right. But I totally forgot about SCs and ACs. I didn't used it against the US (BAR and M8), and Brits (Stuart), and I went to P4 or Marder and inf upgrades.
An annoying thing is with the soviets, that I can't crush them. This the story: I played 1v1 and I was on the loose. My opponent got rushed in a blob of (upgraded) Tank Hunters, and it was a desperate move: "Hey, let's try to crush them!" But I couldn't. It was so annoying that unvetted soldiers uncrushable. I don't think that the plus PTRD man make the squad invincible. And I know that is bold move to go panthers against Tank Hunters, but that was quick idea to turn the tide, coz he had nothing. For example the IS2 crushed even the Knight Cross Holders as it touches the infanrty. I know I'm not expert CoH player but this little things I think ridicilous. Don't take to offense, I just write my experience.

It takes a bit more experience to know how to (and when you can or cannot) crush troops with vehicles.  For example its harder when they are in the vast open and the other guy isn't giving them stupid move orders.  Its easier when they fire-up with move orders.  To crush troops you kinda have to mess with their troop pathing a little bit.  For better result you could try using 2 tanks and use the sandwich motion to crush, or you could try to suppress the troops before crushing.  Anyhow, the more you play, the more you'll get the hang of when or when not to crush.

Thanks Chancellor, that clears thing up. :)