Munitions

The munitions up keep is strangling the Soviets, especially vs PE. The AT gun is the only early defense against inf HT and armor cars. The fact that it cant be re-crewed makes it a gamble, but with a higher munitions up-keep than a T70 makes it impossible. Not as big of a problem vs Wehr, but it seems everyone wants to play PE now.

So I've been playing the Soviets a lot in the past few days, and I can't help to notice what I deem an absolutely ridiculous drain of munitions just due to a few units.

I'm very curious to learn what other people think about the munitions drain.

As of now the following units have the following drain:

...
* T70/T90/ZiS AT gun/Mortar/Firebase/ZiS-5 Medic Truck/Katyusha upkeep set at 0.007 munitions per tick (3.36 per min).
* T34-76/T34-85/SU-85/SU-100/Lend-Lease Sherman/KV-2 set upkeep at 0.014 munitions per tick (6.72 per min).
* IS-2/ISU-152 upkeep set at 0.018 munitions per tick (8.64 per min).
...

Things like the ZiS AT gun can make or break a game. I just played on Kharkov and I was constantly kept at 0 munitions as I it was absolutely necessary to have an AT gun to hold off the tide of Armoured cars and Stugs. I of course had something else draining my munitons. I think it was a ZiS medic truck at first, which I later sent directly into the enemy camp to intentionally destroy it to free up munitions. I needed some offensive power so I had to get a SU-85, and I think that's where my munitions came to a halt. Meanwhile I had no chance to tech up what so ever, unless I controlled all of the munitions points on the map. The enemy raced ahead and teched up. The only reason I managed to turn it around was that I held off the enemy long enough to earn the Sniper Ace.

I can totally see why, and agree with that there should be a drain, but the current rates are just too crippling, and they make the soviets extremely dependant on which map they're playing on.

Like I wrote, I'm very curious to hear what other people think about the drain.

Perhaps they are slightly too high, but the map may also have had something to do with it. Many of the EF maps have the resources badly laid out. It usually works out fine on Langres/Ango etc.

There's another thread just started about the munitions upkeep rates. You should talk about it there and close this one.

Topics Merged - Burro

Last edited September 3, 2010 at 6:06 AM by BurroDiablo

I understand and agree that the munitions up-keep was done for balance. The Soviets where op before the last series of patches. I agree totally with that. But now vs PE its  reversed.  They know the one shot pak isn’t going to save them anymore. And they know PE light vehicles will rape the Soviets. I went back to wehr, USA and Brits because every game I’ve played with the Soviets in the past weeks have been against PE or double PE..

The Soviets have no early inf that will stand up to PE vehicles. Tank hunters wont do it, unless they have there up-grade. That takes 60 fuel and 90 munitions. You will be spending fuel on support barracks up-grade and tank hall. Then munitions on command squad smg so they can start getting vet. Now you might have conscripts and engies out capping like crazy but PE vehicles  is going to come in and cut you off of all or most of those resources. Then send out a inf HT to mop up all your weak inf while armored cars and PG keeps you pinned in your base. Then their kitten can go merrily on capping the map.

The soviets need those early AT guns and I hate building AT guns because I know all they have to do is de-crew it and its dead. One AT gun isn’t enough, you need two, one covering the other. The munitions up-keep on two AT guns is the killer.

Im not suggesting you lower the munitions up-keep on AT guns. Im suggesting you remove it completely, and on the medic truck. Its only going to have an impact vs PE because vs Wehr no one is going to build AT guns anyway.

I somewhat agree that AT guns shouldn't have the upkeep.

I think AT guns should have an upkeep, but it does need to be lowered a bit.
On the medic truck I agree with having no upkeep.

I would really like to see the first tier of drains completely removed, except for with the Katyusha, which should be moved up a tier. The 2nd tier cost should be closer to tier 1, and tier 3 should be kept as it is.

That's what I think anyway.

Ok, there is a problem vs PE because we had originally nerfed back in 1.02 the basic rifle damage vs vehicles due to the soviet horde at that time. That's been amended in the next patch.

Also, as things stand you should go Tankhunters vs PE and spam 3-4 of them.The upgrade them as soon as possible, because the upgrade works on the current teams on the field.

For the love of god, do not try and chase the armoured cars/halftracks with them and keep them in cover. They have range 40 unlike other hand held AT weapons who have 35. Use their bloody ambush ability.  Use their mines and AT nades

I also think the AT gun shouldn't have an upkeep. Its so necessary to prolonged survival, its nearly required. I understand the larger units, and the need to balance, but the AT gun is just so basic. And when you have to have multiples, it really adds up. Its great that you have helped the tank hunters but sometimes you need the extra range.

The upgrade works on tank hunters in the field??? wow, I didn’t know that. I’ve been playing this wrong. I have always held back on building more than one tank hunter until I have the upgrade. Thank for that info man, will give it a try. Next to the ace, tank hunters are my favorite unit anyway.

Is there any other upgrades that work on units in the field?

Tank hunters are the only ones who get this...cause it makes sense and was technically possible. Its also the reason the upgrade is fairly expensive to avoid uber spamming

Use the ambush as well as they get 'first strike bonus'.

There are so many things one can do if you don't simply stick to basics and look around/experiment

Well as soon as I read that I tried a test game and sure enough tank hunters on the field got their upgrade once it was researched in the supply yard. Am I the only one that didn’t know that? This will make a huge difference in my play style vs PE. I like to keep tank hunters on ambush and hold fire then hit with AT nade first now I don’t have to worry so much about AT guns. Maybe one in the back ground. Pays to read these forums I guess.

I've noticed that they get an additional man when they rank up, but not anything else than that.

Nevertheless, I still consider the drain to be overkill.

Last edited September 4, 2010 at 10:17 PM by Dot.Shadow

Sonders wrote:
Well as soon as I read that I tried a test game and sure enough tank hunters on the field got their upgrade once it was researched in the supply yard. Am I the only one that didn’t know that? This will make a huge difference in my play style vs PE. I like to keep tank hunters on ambush and hold fire then hit with AT nade first now I don’t have to worry so much about AT guns. Maybe one in the back ground. Pays to read these forums I guess.

You weren't  the only one.

I knew  ;D

It was the basis for a strat I was developing that involved ingenery spam with command squad + straight for tank hunters. Then you backtech to strelky and get men against tanks for the tank hunters already on the field.

Tank hunters with only 1 PRTD are actually quite good troops.

You mean you watched the game Nowslin posted in the tourney thread in GR soon after he ragequit vs Sandland doing that strat  ;)  lol
The things I know hey...

I knew it. What do you mean "ragequit" did he get mad?

QuoteSonders

Maybe I didnt find it funny, hell I dont need to help anyone, this is my last post here

Look who came crawling back.

Seeme wrote:
I knew it. What do you mean "ragequit" did he get mad?

QuoteSonders

Maybe I didnt find it funny, hell I dont need to help anyone, this is my last post here

Look who came crawling back.

yea, i should know better than to let a squirrel get to me

Zerstörer wrote:
You mean you watched the game Nowslin posted in the tourney thread in GR soon after he ragequit vs Sandland doing that strat  ;)  lol
The things I know hey...

Actually I developed the strat before the tourney. I've played several games against people to good effect with it as well and was going to use it. However, the starting manpower nerf to the Soviets in the tourney patch stopped me from using it because I didn't know how it would go.

I think I still have some old replays if you don't believe me :). Despite being a different patch, I'm sure you can still use the replay analyser on them.

I also was going to use it in my first game against Sztefenfu but got dominated by PE in just a couple minutes :(.

Last edited September 6, 2010 at 3:44 AM by GodlikeDennis

Yip, Sztenfenfu didn't kid around with his PE play. Owned me within minutes as well.

I've noticed that there is a attitude on the forum around the munitions that simply blames the custom maps. People see that the munitions become a problem, but the problem is simply justified with "The custom map has poor resource placement". I don't think that's a very good approach to the problem, since the other factions clearly don't have problems on these maps. The developers should aim to make the Soviets (and the Ostheer, when the time comes) equal to the other factions, no matter which map is being played.

An attitude? It's simply a reason why you might have thought this given the map you were playing. Who says the other factions don't have problems with these maps as well?

Well he just said....