Russian Heavy Infantry

Any chance of getting doctrine based Heavy inf similar to rangers?

I think GodlikeDennis had made the suggestion in another thread and it kinda stuck with me.  He had mentioned it as a replacement in the Breakthrough doctrine and think that would be a good replacement for the Sherman since we already have tank riders.

I know they have guards, but guards are a great jack of all trades inf, something more anti armor based like rangers , would be nice.

This would give some added flexibility to your build out instead of going close range support you could still have some AT infantry , AT inf that doesn't die if you sneeze on them.

They are the only army currently that doesn't have any heavy inf call in .  I figure they don't need close support inf as they have multiple options already (combat eng, strelky w ppsh , command squad upgraded). Mid/long covered w guards and/or strelky w lmg upgrade. To get any punch out of tank hunters u need upgrade at armory and even then they still die way easy and slows your tank hall upgrades.

Input or feel free to disagree  ;)

I tried to find some historical equivalent but didn't have much luck.  I don't know how the Russian airborne were equipped, though I did find out they only had a couple of airdropped missions and then fought as ground pounders for the rest of the war.

Last edited August 28, 2010 at 3:14 AM by Sigmar

They do have a second heavy infantry type...Sturmovie engineers. Resilient assault infantry with ppsh, satchel charges and conveniently...mine sweepers. Go urban doctrine and you can get double flammer for these guys...very ugly vs Axis infantry/bunkers/base buildings

Soviets do not have heavy AT infantry, because they have better AT options with vehicles than Brits/US instead.

Historically, the soviets lacked proper hand held AT throughout the war. They had a few lend lease bazookas and sturmovie groups would use scavenged Panzerfausts if they were lucky.
Giving them the weapons of the other factions would just suck 'game wise'. Instead this is now a calculated weakness....use tanks/TDs for heavy AT

Airborne, Fallshrimjeagers and Commandos are not heavy infantry.
Commandos role was to recon and sabotage and they are similar to Partisants in that role.

It to you heavy infantry = AT infantry than PIAT Commandos suck more than PTRD teams so Soviet infantry is much heavier than British.
If to you heavy infantry = elite infantry than Sniper Ace is a heavy sniper. :D

What about NKVD Shock Troops? 4 men with ppsh, dressed like NKVD comissars, very tough and good in close combat.

cephalos wrote:
What about NKVD Shock Troops? 4 men with ppsh, dressed like NKVD comissars, very tough and good in close combat.

-
WTF dude...honestly!. 4 tough guys with pps=tank riders
3-4 tough guys with ppsh=Sturmovie Engineers.

Do you guys even think about what's in game and what might be 'needed' before making these random suggestions?

Tank riders aren't so tough. Thay just have tank behind them.

A tank is tough though.

QuoteThey do have a second heavy infantry type...Sturmovie engineers. Resilient assault infantry with ppsh, satchel charges and conveniently...mine sweepers. Go urban doctrine and you can get double flammer for these guys...very ugly vs Axis infantry/bunkers/base buildings

No argument here. One of the biggest smiles I have had in awhile playing CoH was on the map where it starts to snow, 3 on 3, stalingrad? I went urban popped an upgraded group of these guys out and it was pure chaos. "Flamethrower attack! Fire everywhere! There burning us!" Couldn't stop laughing ;)!

I guess I am just an AT hunter hater .  They require a lot of micro to get the job done and seem to die to easily but then again are only 280 mp. I like heavies .  Vetted Airborne and Storm squad kicks arse .  "We are crushing them beneath our jack boots!"

I argue that from a strategies perspective, it opens up a lot more viable build orders by having a doctrinal stop-gap AT squad.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I argue that from a strategies perspective, it opens up a lot more viable build orders by having a doctrinal stop-gap AT squad.

Soviets have an AT unit no matter how they tech up. They can have both Tank Hunters and ZIS-2 when germans reach T2.
While Germans (T1 - T3 strat) and US (quick T4) need their elite AT infantry Soviets can counter anything with their Strelky, Mortar, Tank Hunter mix.

Quote
What about NKVD Shock Troops? 4 men with ppsh, dressed like NKVD comissars, very tough and good in close combat.

NKVD was made to keep discipline in the army. Their were Soviet MPs (military police). They werent a fighting force and rarelly seen the front line. Why should they be tough?

and commandos were supposed to sabotage enemy's infrastructue, and rangers were infiltrating units, and there was no bergetiger, no firing V1 on the battlefields.... this is just game.

Paciat wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I argue that from a strategies perspective, it opens up a lot more viable build orders by having a doctrinal stop-gap AT squad.

Soviets have an AT unit no matter how they tech up. They can have both Tank Hunters and ZIS-2 when germans reach T2.
While Germans (T1 - T3 strat) and US (quick T4) need their elite AT infantry Soviets can counter anything with their Strelky, Mortar, Tank Hunter mix.

You basically say what I mean anyway. Not every strat should have to involve getting T2 first.

cephalos wrote:
and commandos were supposed to sabotage enemy's infrastructue, and rangers were infiltrating units, and there was no bergetiger, no firing V1 on the battlefields.... this is just game.

A game with borders ;)

cephalos wrote:
and commandos were supposed to sabotage enemy's infrastructue, and rangers were infiltrating units, and there was no bergetiger, no firing V1 on the battlefields.... this is just game.

Commandos are COH light infatry if compared to PE MP44 squads.
Nazis are all 8 feet tall. Thats probably why they are so heavy.

But are PE MP44 squads real Nazis?

Paciat wrote:

cephalos wrote:
and commandos were supposed to sabotage enemy's infrastructue, and rangers were infiltrating units, and there was no bergetiger, no firing V1 on the battlefields.... this is just game.

Commandos are COH light infatry if compared to PE MP44 squads.
Nazis are all 8 feet tall. Thats probably why they are so heavy.

That's a new ostheer infantry unit...with 'heavy crush' stomping through tank traps and hedges  ;D

Hello, I'm new here. ... i'm russian.
You are creators of a very good mod. ... because this is a first mod ... in all over the WW2 games for Great Patriotic War.

But i reply not for posting good words.
I have a hobby - Hystory of GPW ... I have an ideas.

1.  - resources of the game is short ... But first theme is engineers.
Sience the end of 1942, begin 1943, Every division & batallion have en engineers - Sapeer Stormtrooper Engeneer Brigades.
They have well armed & equiped with steel bulletproof armor. They have to nock down fire Dot-Com, heavy walls, build bridges & others. (In your mod, engeneers - ordinary troops with mosin rifle.)
They are have called Panzer Infantry.
(http://img15.nnm.ru/a/a/6/b/0/4e186c6f31fb34529f79e7e6167.jpg)

2. Mod have SU-85, SU-100, ISU-152, but don't have SU-76 - first of all soviet machine carried guns. It's ZIS-3 AT-gun placed on T-34 platform. In other maters, it have been placed on trophy Pz-II & other ...
(SU-76 http://www.kursk1943.mil.ru/kursk/tw/afv/s_spg_su76.jpg)

3. AT guns. Why only one ZIS-3? BS-3 - catsmasher - 100mm longbarreled anty-tank gun. Better, is only 122mm corps artillery gun.
BS-3 can penetrate Panther tank front armor in distance 1,5 km.
A-19 - in 2,5 km.
... & one more thing - A-19 - 122mm artillery gun placed on ISU-122 from begin of 1944.
(BS-3 http://pomnite-nas.ru/img/78/200706212251210.17b.jpg)
(A-19 http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/a/r/archiss/A_19_122_mm_Uralskaya_ul.jpg)
(ISU-122s http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/73/Isu122S_kiev.jpg)

4. Tanks. Soviet army have T-34, IS-2 ... but where the IS-1, & KV (Klim Voroshilov heavy tank) that fight from 1941, to 1943. In first battles Germans have shocked of that mashine. For justice' sake - russians must have that first year of war monster.
(KV http://www.kursk1943.mil.ru/kursk/tw/afv/s_tank_kv1s.jpg)
(IS-1 http://s11.radikal.ru/i184/1003/00/8f912baf47d2.jpg)

Sorry for my english & thank you.

5. Motocircles. 1942, since battle of Moskow, soviet recon battalions have armed with light tanks & motocircles.
(http://www.gunmagazine.com.ua/arhiv/20/7/index_clip_image008.jpg)

6. Soviet Marines - "Black Devils" - fearless troops, defenders of Sevastopol, Feadosia & others ...
(http://no-pasaran.clan.su/tmp11B-56.jpg)

Last edited August 30, 2010 at 5:47 PM by Sturmovik

SU-76 was going to be in the mod but there were problems with the model. Before another SU-76 model was finished, we had already skinned and animated the T-70 and T-90 to replace it. Then we got our hands on an SU-85 model, so the SU-76 seemed obsolete. However, that's not to say you'll never see it, it can easily become a reward unit if we finish it. It's the same situation with the KV-1.
IS-1 seems like a waste of a space since we already filled the Heavy tank space with the IS-2 and we have two 85mm Tanks already.
As for the AT Guns, we chose the ZiS-2 because it is a similar calibre to the vCoH AT guns. In order to make the ZiS-3 or BS-3 viable balance wise, we'd need to make them a lot weaker than their real life counterparts.

You should create a new thread instead of hijacking another one.

The soviets don't need thousand units, what they have are enough. But you should be expecting reward units for them.

I think that Heavy support tanks need some other unit besides t-34s...

Off-topic mode deactivated.

Copy situation with tanks ... i'm not modeller, sadness, ... can't help.

With AT guns ... underrstand. Unhappy, that the strong barrels don't live in mod.

Thank you for answer.

We have a ZiS-3 (and ZiS-2 for that matter) model, skinned and ready, but I'm unsure of its purpose. But yeah, that's getting off topic.

Soviet Marines are partially on-topic. We had some partially finished, we intended them to be a reward replacement for Guard Infantry. I think I saw somewhere that they may replace Tank Guards in a future update, but that's speculation.

BurroDiablo wrote:

Soviet Marines are partially on-topic. We had some partially finished, we intended them to be a reward replacement for Guard Infantry. I think I saw somewhere that they may replace Tank Guards in a future update, but that's speculation.

Yep its been suggested loads of times (including by me) and i'd love to see them as an addition.  I think theirs a picture of the models floating around in one of the suggestion threads somewhere.

On the whole the Russians have a really good selection of infantry, in fact i think they have more variety than any other faction in the kinds infantry they can field.   

Yeah, its really nice having an infantry type to serve every need.

BurroDiablo wrote:

Soviet Marines are partially on-topic. We had some partially finished, we intended them to be a reward replacement for Guard Infantry. I think I saw somewhere that they may replace Tank Guards in a future update, but that's speculation.

Blackjackets riding on tanks?! That would be pure awsumness :D

TacticalNuke wrote:
Yeah, its really nice having an infantry type to serve every need.

Guards have AT nades so they kinda do good AT in numbers

AT nades are like stickies, they prevent flanks but they can't be used for primary AT because they are so easily kited.

I forget. Machineguns!

It has been surprise, that Soviet Army do not have Machinegun crews.

From early of the beginning of Great war for the Motherland, and to Victory, Soviet troops have been armed with machineguns:
- Maxim
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Ussr0259.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Maxim_Maschinengewehr_1910.jpg)
- Main HMG DShK (Dektyarev Shpagin Krupnokaliberniy) 1938-present days
(http://zvezda.org.ru/images/sets/3609.gif)
(http://stat17.privet.ru/lr/0915e2396ff5560f82f18683a8cece07)
(http://www.zorich.ru/games/bb/pics/c4_novorossiisk/dshk.jpg)
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/2032.5e3yzenfdv0okg84o84s4400g.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

Maxim AA MG usage (http://weaponland.ru/images/statyi/orugeyniki-1/Neustrasimiy_Maksim-II-6.jpg)


DShK AA HMG usage (http://victory.rusarchives.ru/img/photos/275_big.jpg)

If anyone speak & read russian - http://rkka.ru/iorg.htm

Interesting option of this machinegun usage:

(http://artofwar.ru/img/c/chekmarew_w_a/text_0690/gaz111.jpg) GAZ AA with 4 Maxim MGs
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Bundesarchiv_Bild_121-1203,_Russland,_Vierlings-MG_auf_LKW.jpg/607px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_121-1203,_Russland,_Vierlings-MG_auf_LKW.jpg) Photo with closer image of firepoint

If that interesting:

Flak Gun 85mm 52-K 1938 year.
(http://dod-kgb.clan.su/_fr/0/08211539.jpg)

Fluk Gun 37mm 31-K Loginov 1939 year
(http://dod-kgb.clan.su/_fr/0/03443771.jpg)

Seige Artillery
(http://dod-kgb.clan.su/_fr/0/16575258.jpg)
B-4 203mm Seige gun
In the begin of GPW, Soviet army have been armed with 727 that guns.


Heavy mortar 120mm
(http://s48.radikal.ru/i119/0905/8c/c73e88db2c54.jpg)
In the begin of 1941 SA have 3000 that guns, duaring the war, prodused mutch more & simple examples of that mortar. Mortac can use trophy german 12 sm. Wgr. 42 mine.

Weapon have bin used military organization named Polk.
Polk - Regiment - 2-4 battalions.

That examples is the suggestions for the historical corrections of the Soviet Army via Great War for the Motherland.

Last edited September 1, 2010 at 4:26 PM by Sturmovik

Sturmovik, we have explained on multiple occasions why we don't want an HMG as part of the Soviet arsenal.

Reason 1, if we do have a HMG for the Soviets, all you need to do is suppress everything in front of it and then bring in the 120mm mortar, and the world is over.

Reason 2, the Maxim on the Gun Carrigge is really hard for the Devs to animate (If i remmeber correctly)

Reason 3, Making HMG squads for the Soviets is going to be an obnoxious pain due to the recrew bug, so if you lose one, u have to build a new one (very annoying).

Reason 4, Even if you make the HMG a replacement for the Mortar (a reward unit) then the Soviets still have Snipers with Arty and Firebases (inaccurate but effective) to use as a substitue for the Mortar.

Now the triple and quadruple mounted machineguns on the GAZ truck is a cool idea as a substitue for the T-60 (or is it 90 and i tend to forget the names of the two light tanks and for that i apologize), less armor but more firepower. I think that would a worthy reward unit for the Soviets.

neosdark wrote:
Sturmovik, we have explained on multiple occasions why we don't want an HMG as part of the Soviet arsenal.

Reason 1, if we do have a HMG for the Soviets, all you need to do is suppress everything in front of it and then bring in the 120mm mortar, and the world is over.

Reason 2, the Maxim on the Gun Carrigge is really hard for the Devs to animate (If i remmeber correctly)

Reason 3, Making HMG squads for the Soviets is going to be an obnoxious pain due to the recrew bug, so if you lose one, u have to build a new one (very annoying).

Reason 4, Even if you make the HMG a replacement for the Mortar (a reward unit) then the Soviets still have Snipers with Arty and Firebases (inaccurate but effective) to use as a substitue for the Mortar.

Now the triple and quadruple mounted machineguns on the GAZ truck is a cool idea as a substitue for the T-60 (or is it 90 and i tend to forget the names of the two light tanks and for that i apologize), less armor but more firepower. I think that would a worthy reward unit for the Soviets.

Thanks for explain, but:
Soviets does not have MG support, espesially for the begin of the combat. No support, great loses, it's sad.
Throuble with moddoing of the HMG, OK, why not Maxim MG?
So, if SA ... will not have MG's ... thats historically discorrect, why not give Motocycles with MG's, like recon unit?

Zerstörer wrote:

Paciat wrote:

cephalos wrote:
and commandos were supposed to sabotage enemy's infrastructue, and rangers were infiltrating units, and there was no bergetiger, no firing V1 on the battlefields.... this is just game.

Commandos are COH light infatry if compared to PE MP44 squads.
Nazis are all 8 feet tall. Thats probably why they are so heavy.

That's a new ostheer infantry unit...with 'heavy crush' stomping through tank traps and hedges  ;D

I guess ostheer will be infantry "heavy" then.

+1 to the MG unit for the Soviets.
Practice shows, that the support weapon for the SU front is needed. First time confrontations, with expirienced german player, shows good use of defence installations + mortar & MG support will stay thought untill heavy or armored units of nazi will marsh to the front line. Rifle squads & many enchancements of antiinfantry support in the beginning (with extrashort point counting) is anfortunate for the soviets line.

MG tank? SU troops without support units with good nzi player will live short & take loses of territory. With this point of view, later, if Soveits wil survive, MG tanks not needed. Nazi AT guns & first panzers make this kind of support zero effectiveness.

Be sure, i have a friend - good nazi player. He very quick adapt to the recruit SA charges.

I don't think you can make devs add MG to Soviets... Do they need MG? Yeah, that "would be cool". Do PE need snipers? That "would be cool" too. It's not like Soviet Army is helpless without MGs.

Offtopic: if you're using Russian CoH version, you can help me refine translation - you can either use a topic for translation errors in "bugs" section of add me in ICQ/MSN.

1943 year
Eastern front
Russian infantry division (стрелковая дивизия)

9432 troops
12 guns - 122mm
32 guns - 76mm
106 mortars - 122 & 82 mm
48 AT guns - 37, 45mm
212 AT rifles
6484 rifles & carbines
727 submachine guns (later that number wil be twise bigger)
494 light MG
111 heavy MG
123 auto

Rifle brigade (стрелковая бригада)
4334 mans
76mm guns - 8
57/45mm AT guns - 12
120mm mortar - 8
82mm mortar - 12
48 AT rifles
"Hand"/ light MG - 149
Heavy MG - 49
662 PPSH
178 auto
818 horses

Fighting (AT) brigade (истребительная бригада)
1791 mans
76mm guns - 16
45mm guns - 12
37mm guns - 4
120mm mortar - 4
82mm mortar - 8
144 AT rifles
21 medium tanks
11 light tanks
177 auto
20 motocircles

Tank platoons & companies is for other speaking.

---

Post Merge: [time]1284879994[/time]

---

Exaple
3rd guard tank corps

Corps stuff
3rd guard tank brigade
18th guard tank brigade
19th guard tank brigade
2nd guard motoshooter (мотострелковая бригада) brigade
7th autotransport company
74th field tank repair base
114th field auto repair base

7th guard mechanized corps

Corps stuff
24th guard mechanized brigade (13th tank company)
25th guard mechanized brigade (12th tank company)
26th guard mechanized brigade (215th tank company)
57th guard tank brigade
772nd radio battalion
19th sapper battalion
76th repair battalion

Tank brigade (1st guard)
Brigade stuff
1st tank battalion
2nd tank battalion
Motoshooter (мотострелковый) – MG battalion
AT rifles company
AA artillery company
AA MG company
Recon company
Tech company
Medical company
NKVD dep
NKVD guard platoon

9 sept 1943 Mechanised corps transferred to the stuff reserve.

Brigade stuff
1st, 2nd, 3rd tank battalions
Mechanised battalion
AA MG company
Tech company
Medical platoon

Last edited September 19, 2010 at 7:06 AM by Sturmovik

What's the point of this listing (which we can all dig out of the internet)? What's it got to do with the game/faction?

If you want to post 'random historical data' please use Other discussions/Eastern front thread. Do not hijack irrelevant threads

Last edited September 19, 2010 at 9:37 AM by Zerstörer

Sturmovik wrote:
1943 year
Eastern front
Russian infantry division (стрелковая дивизия)

9432 troops
...

Company of Heroes is about companies and 1 day skirmishes, not divisions and 1 year campaigns.

You are slowless.
It is for historycal confirmation, that the MGs is more than take a place in soviet army during 1941-45.

@Sturmovik
There won't be any MG for the soviets. If devs will add it, ceirtanly will widely known.

Sturmovik wrote:
You are slowless.
It is for historycal confirmation, that the MGs is more than take a place in soviet army during 1941-45.

No way! The largest army ever had MGs?  ::)

Paciat wrote:

Sturmovik wrote:
1943 year
Eastern front
Russian infantry division (стрелковая дивизия)

9432 troops
...

1 day skirmishes

More like 2 Hour Skirmishes :)