[1.23]Katayusha

The bridge was blown at cherbourg, and the katyushas kept pelting my repair pioneers. So i rolled up 3 nebelwerfer units.
Fired across with SIX salvos in a tight pattern directly on it....

..the freaking truck was still there with fire all around it.
Does it have 3"plate steel roof and asbestos lining? it's a truck after all.  ???

I really like most of 1.23. Great job overall.

Last edited August 14, 2010 at 1:58 AM by defender7

Nebelwerfers don't damage vehicles.

Ah, yes. I have been playing mods so long that I had forgotten that 34kg 150mm rockets do not damage vehicles in regular COH.  ::)
My mistake.

Back when Kats had very little health a nebelwerfer was instant kill to them. I'm glad those days have passed.

It just seems a little ridiculous to see all those rockets hit a truck and nothing happens. Must be a Chevrolet.  :D

In real life nebels could take out tanks...

Luckily for us (or not depending on your views), this is a game ;)

Tico_1990 wrote:
Luckily for us (or not depending on your views), this is a game ;)

So is checkers. This is a war game. Thank you for your astute observation. I am not here to flame or demand realism. My point was to show that there was no available long range counter to the truck since it was out of short range contact and out of mortar range. It caused my game to stalemate, and I believe it to be a balance issue. The only reason I post here is to possibly help EF be the best it can be. I have been playing war games for over 30 years since ASL(squad leader) came out.
I think 1.23 shows huge steps forward and I am amazed at what you guys have done.

Chtob vse byli zdorovy and Aloha!
:)

From your previous posts it sounded like you demanded realism, which of course is not acceptable.

But since you argue from a gamplay standpoint, what map were you playing? This can have a huge bearing on your argument. Any arty is quite counterable on maps that aren't choke-pointy. In regards to nebels countering them, that is not their job at all. They are actually the earliest available arty piece and they are used for AOE damage, suppression and LoS reveals on infantry in a huge area. They are not good against any sort of vehicle and are not intended to be. If you are wehrmacht and wish to damage vehicles with arty I suggest you use stukas because, although inaccurate, actually do a lot of damage. Based on the halftrack, they are also resistant to counter fire. Alternatively you can sneak in with stormtoopers, or call in a V1 after spotting. There are actually quite a few options to dealing with these. Even panthers are extremely good because of their speed and durability. They can usually deal lots of damage before making it out alive.

Dennis, if you actually read my first post you would know what map I was playing. I had no off map artillery. The map was choke point. I am seeking the fine balance between realism and a game, which in itself makes a great game. You seem to want a game. I guess you did not know the katyusha was primarily mounted on a six wheeled truck, not a halftrack. But that is besides the point. If a kat can hit a Neb, why cant a neb hit a kat? you are still thinking in vanilla COH. I am just discussing balance at this point.

defender7 wrote:
My point was to show that there was no available long range counter to the truck since it was out of short range contact and out of mortar range.

You want too counter a doctrinal mobile artillery with cheaper static nebels?

Quote
It caused my game to stalemate, and I believe it to be a balance issue.

If you dont like stalemate dont build towed arti. T3 has plenty of vechicles to make the game mobile.

Paciat wrote:

defender7 wrote:
My point was to show that there was no available long range counter to the truck since it was out of short range contact and out of mortar range.

You want too counter a doctrinal mobile artillery with cheaper static nebels?

Quote
It caused my game to stalemate, and I believe it to be a balance issue.

If you dont like stalemate dont build towed arti. T3 has plenty of vechicles to make the game mobile.

Those vehicles cant swim. Did you read anything? I had "T3". T3 is not even the point.
Forget it. My point is there are still balance issues that I should not even have posted here after seeing these responses. My intention was to bring it to the eyes of the devs for further improvements to a great mod.

Last edited August 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM by defender7

@defender7 - I think the balance in COH is less good on chokepoint maps, because I get the impression the game is designed to be about mobile fighting.

Dennis was talking about the Wehrmacht halftrack which can be upgraded with rockets, not the Katyusha being a halftrack. His point stands about the Stuka upgrade for the halftrack being a good bet for you to counter the Katyushas. The EF mod have said they want to keep the feeling of vanilla COH, hence the slight oddness between units here and there in the name of balance.

Also, playing with Victory Points will end concerns about stalemating, since it's very unlikely that both sides will end up dug in with artillery with one VP uncapped by either side.

I get the impression that COH is designed to be balanced in VP matches, where stalemates like you describe don't really happen.

I don't know what map you mean by Cherbourg. Isn't that a campaign level?

Regardless, the single mention of the word bridge in the post means that a balance problem can't be isolated because of the added variables, that being that you can't counter his arty with normal units.

In mine, and many others', opinions CoH is already a perfect mix between gameplay and realism - hollywood realism. This is a good mix to be easy for most people to understand the basics of the weapon systems and have fun at the same time. It seems like you're trying to turn the game into something it's not, a realism simulator. CoH may not be for you. Try Men of War. I hear it's an excellent game that is very realistic.

Don't bother asking the devs to change the game to be more realistic. They will keep the existing formula of vCoH.

Yes Wilson, I am getting the picture. I forgot about the stuka upgrade.
Does it have the same range as Katyusha and is it an equal vanilla counter?
I am sorta done with this for now and looking to see what N44 does with the eastern front for my style of play. I did not know EF wanted to preserve vanilla play.

BTW when he played chergnough he pronsly means the Docks Map, becuase its based off of cherbough

Seine River docks?

I guess, it had bridges. Though IDK thats really much a stallment map

Defender, I know what you're saying and I couldn't agree more. Those dam katushas fire into the fog of war directly on top of my massed forces. Even when I hide my assault force far away from the front lines the AI is able to fire precision salvos right on my head. God its annoying!

when i play soviets i find that one needs the maximum number(3) of katjuschas to make them any good...
i fnd them a little weak... well on the other hand they are cheap

Yup. I was wondering why he was bitching about
Nebels and not using Stuka's. On the other hand, yea.
What's this with Nebels not hurting vehicles?

Loupblanc wrote:

Yup. I was wondering why he was bitching about
Nebels and not using Stuka's. On the other hand, yea.
What's this with Nebels not hurting vehicles?

No one really uses stukas any more cause other than attacking Brit structures, they're craptastic and a require stupendous investment. Nebels on the other hand are cheap and still marginally better vs infantry. Neither of these is true arty as even direct hits will rarely kill infantry-unlike US/Brit arty which wipes out entire full health squads in 1 hit. Its just one of those design things. Germans have better tanks, allies have better arty. Cost/damage etc balances things out

Stukas aren't bad at all, but they ARE expensive.

I like stukas, if you have 3 or more, there killer.

i like stukas cause in tank battles they kill annoying jacksons and cromwells of or at least damage them a lot

My solution to the AI Kat spam rush....make them explosive and do damage to units :D
(jk, but BK mod did make this happen for tanks, but they toned it down a bit)

Who would want to fill trucks with explosives and drive it at people?

Well, Axis just drive the explosive to the target :).

In age of empires 2 you could "fill" soldiers and ships with explosives :D.

Its a rocket launching truck....whats not explosive about it ? :D

Maybe the rockets weren't put in yet?

next we'll be adding a "Upgrade to ICMB" Upgrade.

Well seeme,  you have to Believe! they are there ! , and I dont see where they store it so they could be putting it in the truck....

I know how you love to Belive In your Elf tales and Goblin storys, but this is real war!(Or fake,real war)

Is it me or is the Katyusha just, well, almost useles? Maybe I've used it wrong / seen it used wrong, but it seems pretty crap.

Barraging a base caused minor damage, barraging some PE Vehicles caused some moderate damage, and barraging Infantry is, useless.

I've seen 3 Kats barrage a single PE Squad and only killed 3/4. I've seen 1 Kat barrage my AG Mob (6 4 man squads) and my PG's not take an ounce of damage. It's like they barraged us with raindrops.

I use katyusha as distractor- often players make strange things to kill it.... and it's awesome weapon against buildings, obviously when you use three of them at once. It's always good to have 2-3 of them to bombard retreating enemy tanks, or wipe out mg, mortars, paks, and many more positions. It shouldn't be used as main assault weapon, like brit or us arty. it's just support weapon.
and killing 3/4 PG is quite good effect.
Always use katyushas in group of at least two, because one katyusha isn't enough.

3 barrages on 1 squad to kill 3/4 of them is hardly what I'd call a good effect.

You know , the bots really need to be fixed at times. Some games they will ONLY create katyushas and spam them continuously , this makes terrible and annoying game play , you can just rush them with tanks and the game is over.

Mr. wrote:
3 barrages on 1 squad to kill 3/4 of them is hardly what I'd call a good effect.

This was A) a one time occurrence and B) not what they're used for.

They are utterly fantastic against blobs because they fire quickly and all of their payload hits the target area rather fast. They don't have the squad gib capabilities that shell-based artillery does but instead, completely carpet an area in explosions, forcing a retreat and many casualties. They are actually very effective against vehicles at close range as well. They also have a secondary role in RECON because their missiles target a large area and reveal everything they hit, useful before an attack. They also hit the field extremely early. Overall they're an excellent artillery piece.

Mr. wrote:
3 barrages on 1 squad to kill 3/4 of them is hardly what I'd call a good effect.

This is an old COH OF 3v1 game. Im posting this becouse M4 Calliopes barrage a Kingtiger killing repairing Pios time and time again, finnaly kiling the KT. German player was no noob.
Vidcast #28 part1

Pretty terrible vidcast. Can't believe he was actually reading out the chat...