Contradictory vet and Gameplay

To me it seems the way the russians vet up and the way they're designed to play contradicts itself.  What i mean by this is that the other factions reward you for saving your units and playing smart while the russians are the complete opposite.  Whether you save your units or not you still get a decent amount of MP.  In fact to me it almost seems like you're are encouraged to kill off your early infantry units because they will just take up pop space that could be used for their upgraded versions later down the road.

I mean seriously what is the point of giving the early versions of the units that come out of the mustering and support barracks veterency!?  I mean I got a vet 3 strelky, or whatever the hell they're called in they're early version, and it didn't really mean anything because they couldn't do any of the ability's that they're upgraded versions could.  So they were still just cannon fodder even at vet 3. 

Now don't get me wrong i love this mod and i wish that relic had more time and spent a few more resources on trying to perfect it with the dev's.  Don't get me wrong i think that the devs did a wonderful job with this mod but what i would suggest is that you some how make so that the early versions of the infantry and support units can upgrade to become their later versions.  Also to help balance that out make the upgrades at the upgrade building cost MP in stead of Muni's while maybe also lowering MP recivied per min overall. 
I also don't know about having a muni upkeep.  I think there was a reason relic didn't do that originally but i haven't played with the russian tank enough to have an opinion.

Strelky at vet 3 aren't cannon fodder, they perform well but you should considerate that in close combat will lose. However, in strict sense you got a half point. I would prefer that the upgrade could benefit the deployed units.

I.e. You have a strelky, it fights and survive, therefore earns vet, next you upgrade to Banner Strelky, but that Strelky didn't get any bonus by doing that(engies get flamethrower, conscripts molotovs), they could receive the chance to pay for a random weapon upgrade for one of these(DP28 or PPSH-41); it could be useful.

blackbishop wrote:
...I.e. You have a strelky, it fights and survive, therefore earns vet, next you upgrade to Banner Strelky, but that Strelky didn't get any bonus by doing that(engies get flamethrower, conscripts molotovs), they could receive the chance to pay for a random weapon upgrade for one of these(DP28 or PPSH-41); it could be useful.

+1

I really wish there were some real reason to keep un-upgraded units.

blackbishop wrote:
Strelky at vet 3 aren't cannon fodder, they perform well but you should considerate that in close combat will lose. However, in strict sense you got a half point. I would prefer that the upgrade could benefit the deployed units.

I.e. You have a strelky, it fights and survive, therefore earns vet, next you upgrade to Banner Strelky, but that Strelky didn't get any bonus by doing that(engies get flamethrower, conscripts molotovs), they could receive the chance to pay for a random weapon upgrade for one of these(DP28 or PPSH-41); it could be useful.

But they wouldn't be given the ability from the banner carrier as they do not have one. So they would gain an increase in firepower but not the nice clicky?

It also seems difficult to get infantry units to vet because they are inherently weaker than others. Why make purposely disposable units vet on a kill count system?

The only Russian infantry that can be easily be vetted up are guards , especially shock guards

And yes you have a point there , but you see upgrading the field squads with the armory upgrades is not possible cuz russian infantry are cheap than their axis and allied counterparts and can be produced in large numbers and if everybody gets the global upgrades then its over for the axis player!!

The fact tht there arent any global upgrades is fundamental to balance in the russians.... , still you can use unupgraded strelky for variety of purposes like capping points , armor support etc

cheers :)

AbhMkh wrote:
The only Russian infantry that can be easily be vetted up are guards , especially shock guards

cheers :)

A well positioned dp28 team can get vet 3 in a hurry especially if you go propaganda and entrench the little fellas.

I think you're exaggerating. Base strelky are still an excellent unit, roughly equal to a gren squad. Would you rather a vet 3 one of these or throw it away and not have it at all?

Shadowmetroid wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
...I.e. You have a strelky, it fights and survive, therefore earns vet, next you upgrade to Banner Strelky, but that Strelky didn't get any bonus by doing that(engies get flamethrower, conscripts molotovs), they could receive the chance to pay for a random weapon upgrade for one of these(DP28 or PPSH-41); it could be useful.

+1

I really wish there were some real reason to keep un-upgraded units.

Strelky squad is never useless just like Volks are not. With vet and Command Squad global vet they are far better than volks in the late game.

An un-upgraded Strelky unit can pick up more weapons too...lmgs, bars,shreks
A vetted unit doesn't have to have the weapon upgrade to be good. Infact a vet3 strelky will be  better than your later vet0 upgraded strelky.
You take care of them and they take care of you  ;)

No, i don't think you're getting my point.  The point of an upgrade is to make the troops that you already have on the field better and/or more adaptable.

And in response to Zerstörer are you telling me that you would rather have vet 3 conscripts then vet 0 upgraded conscripts with all of there abilities the extra rifles and molotovs.

AbhMkh i see your say but you know that the solution to that is....  Make the upgrades cost MP like i said and make them a little more expensive.  Also it's not like you can do a base ruse with just infantry, that's what the base mg's are for.  I think that your fear of and early victory from russian infantry is a little unjustified in that they have low HP and that if what you're claiming were the case riflemen and WM vet wouldn't work either.

You can't have vet3 conscripts cause they don't get vet... ::)

Kohler7 wrote:
[...]The point of an upgrade is to make the troops that you already have on the field better and/or more adaptable.[...]

not if the upgrade applies to newly built units only  ::)

Kohler7 wrote:[...]And in response to Zerstörer are you telling me that you would rather have vet 3 conscripts then vet 0 upgraded conscripts with all of there abilities the extra rifles and molotovs.[...]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D anyway, wasn't Zerstörer talking about strelky?  ::)

Kohler7 wrote:[...]Also it's not like you can do a base ruse with just infantry, that's what the base mg's are for.  I think that your fear of and early victory from russian infantry is a little unjustified in that they have low HP and that if what you're claiming were the case riflemen and WM vet wouldn't work either.

ever heard of flanking the base mgs or use the cmd squad fire-up to run through? not every base is perfectly protected and even if it is. than he'll just camp outside your base and wait for any of your capping inf and take it out so you cannot gain any fuel...

+1

Perhaps Kohler might have understood the things , If what he wants became true then it will be axis players worst noghtmare coming true ;) ;) ;)

DOH!! *smacks forehaead* My bad i forgot about conscripts but i still think i have valid points. 

@El Tigre: That's my point, it shouldn't work like that.

You're looking at this from the wrong way. The vet is a way to allow you to hold on to your unupgraded squads after you have upgraded squads on the field. If you vet the base squads, they are still a force to be feared on the battlefield, probably moreso than the upgraded vet0 squads. By having this veterency model, existing squads DON'T become useless after the upgrade is researched.

I would like to see Strelsky get grenades and sandbags :p
Says they are equal to Grens ? Ack! No way :)
They can't buy panzershreks and LMGs for starters ;)
(Unupgraded ones)

- Conscripts and Engineers get something in the field
after the upgraded (olders ones do) Strelsky should get
something nice, too (older ones).

- Food for thought : I think it's really hard to get Command
Squad to vet up :p Shouldn't it get vet from it's fellow
countrymen's kills? It's gotten nerfed so hard that there's
hardly a point to it anymore if you can't get it to vet up :p

- Someone mentionned that the vet system doesn't
make sense. They vet like americans, yet have officer
vet like british, yet have base bought global upgrades
like the Wehr ???!

... Wish you'd consider my heroes of the soviet union
option ;) Would keep the throwaway mindset, but with
vet on the go.
(similar to making first unit of a type gaining vet become
like a weak officer)(With a cap on such units). Limit of
1 vet (+1 aura from hero) = 2. The Commander would
work same, but with ability to get xp from neighbor
friendly kills (like british officer) and his vet helps
infantry and tanks alike.

  Making units who perform well in combat become
hero on the go would be very easy to do , and novel,
and in keeping with the soviet union ;)