Is the PE muni halftrack OP? [1.20]

1.20 patch made some changes to original COH units. One of them was to make PE muni halftrack reinforce troops and cost no fuel.

This means that PE needs only 55Fuel to get 4 man MP44 squads with reinforce (and placing mines) possibility.
This means that PE will be way to OP in early-mid game becouse they wont need to retreat.
Mini halftrack has better armor than infantry halftrack so only Stuarts and upgunned BRENs can defeat them. The problem with Stuarts is that they can apear on the battlefield after 80Fuel. BREN carriers need 90 muni for AP to get a 1st AP round and get overwhelmed by MP44 anyway.

My point is that reinforcing Muni halftracks should cost 10-20Fuel.

Last edited July 30, 2010 at 9:56 PM by Paciat

What does op stand for? You are right, they will be overpowered.

Nicolasas wrote:
What does op stand for? You are right, they will be overpowered.

Overpowered.

Yeah i also think that this change will make it little OP. I think it should either cost 10-20 fuel as said and only do its role as it was in vanilla COH or have an ability to reinforce squads like an Infantry Halftrack but then it should cost more fuel...But im for the first option.

we need to wait until the patch will get out and after few games we gonna see how much is it OP.
Don't forget that PGs are expensive to reinforce but i agree with at least 10 fuel it should cost

It has zero offensive capability, doesnt transport troops and only place mines that aren't free, now has more sense to have it, you can reinforce your troops on the battlefield without building the Kampfgruppe Kompanie, and that doesn't mean you don't need to skip it.

Before, if you build one of these you usually move it near pgrens to allow "fast abilities", if your squad is reduced to 1 soldier, you used to retreat, or before that happened you move them to a forward hq or near of an Infantry Halftrack; but not any more... It's an interesting decision, and will allow PE to use more frecuently mines as other factions IMHO.

I don't see it as OP, it's easier to mow infantry with a halftrack without mg that also can't garrison troops than one with mg who can ;D.

Last edited July 30, 2010 at 11:54 PM by blackbishop

Lots of people I played with says its going to be op, and I think so too. Its a muni halftrack guys, not a manpower one. Its delievers ammo and guns and such. Please change it back. And why no fuel? Its a halftrack, it uses gas. But I rather change the reinforce.

Paciat wrote:
My point is that reinforcing Muni halftracks should cost 10-20Fuel.

Sorry Paciat, I missed that lines :-X... I agree with the fuel cost of 10, if costs 15~20 is too much for a vehicle that cannot defend by itself.

Seeme wrote:
And why no fuel? Its a halftrack, it uses gas.

In a strict sense that isn't a valid reason to add fuel cost; Jeeps, bikes, scout cars, funkwagens, kettens and schwims also use gas ;D...

The fuel cost could be needed if the muniHT will reinforce, I think 10 is ok. And I still missing the 'OP' point of this, its just a defensive-oriented HT, could someone post the reasons?

What about if has better armor than IHT? Hallelujah! It was time for PE to get a useful 'resilient' vehicle, it doesn't wield even a small gun to defend neither heals. If they put 10 as fuel cost then fine we can use it nevertheless, but if they remove the reinforce ability then will be completely useless again.

Well... OP or not, we'll know it soon, the release of the patch is closer 8)...

P.S. When I said reasons of being 'OP' I mean which ones besides fuel cost :P.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 3:07 AM by blackbishop

I actually think it will be fine. PGrens will still be dominated by Ami infantry and the reinforce cost of 45 is huge. It will fit in to the faction much better as a mobile force and can also help with some defensive operations. Though I think it's armour type should be changed from the wehr halftrack type to the infantry halftrack type as it's a little too resilient at that stage.

blackbishop wrote:

Paciat wrote:
My point is that reinforcing Muni halftracks should cost 10-20Fuel.

Sorry Paciat, I missed that lines :-X... I agree with the fuel cost of 10, if costs 15~20 is too much for a vehicle that cannot defend by itself.

Bergetiger?
Unoccupied US and wehrmacht halftracks?
British trucks?

Seeme wrote:
And why no fuel? Its a halftrack, it uses gas.

In a strict sense that isn't a valid reason to add fuel cost; Jeeps, bikes, scout cars, funkwagens, kettens and schwims also use gas ;D...

The fuel cost could be needed if the muniHT will reinforce, I think 10 is ok. And I still missing the 'OP' point of this, its just a defensive-oriented HT, could someone post the reasons?
[/quote]
The OP point is that you can drive near a HQ truck and rape British infantry with MP44 all day long.
Theres no need for a HT MG becouse MP44 firepower is all you need.

You probably seen an MP44 blob raping any infantry on the fiel untill it looses some men and need to reinforce.
With IHT you can allways be on the field (and secure points with mines too).
Normally you would need 40fuel more to do that but then UK would have Stuarts then so you would need Shrecks...

BARs > charging Mp44s    Pgrens with just Mp44 upgrades are paper tigers, and they will never survive the charge to close range to make their Mp44s effective.  Their reinforce cost per man are also sky high.  This isn't even considering when the riflesquads eventually get vet 1-2, which is not too hard to achieve ever since the ToV patch.

Perhaps simply getting rid of the reinforce ability but keeping the cost to 0 fuel is OK.  IMO the reason why the muni HT was changed to cost no fuel is because its underused, and in all honesty, PE really needs a non-doctrinal / no fuel cost unit that can lay mines, because the Stuart is really a problem sometimes.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 4:52 AM by Chancellor

Paciat wrote:
Bergetiger?
Unoccupied US and wehrmacht halftracks?
British trucks?

Bergetiger - crappy hull mg, resurrects vehicles, tiger chasis... its worth it; compare it with a sdkf. 251... I think its unfair.

US & Wehr halftracks - If I have problems defending my halftrack I upgrade it to defend itself from anything on it's scope. I'm not talking about assaulting with HT, but there's a difference between:
Case 1:

• a)attacking a volksgrenadier with Rifleman supported by a HT.
  
• b)the same but supported with a HT with a 'X squad inside'.


• c)the same but supported with a Quad .50 Cal Maxson

Case 2:

• a)attacking a Rifleman with volksgrenadier supported by a HT.
  


• b)the same but supported with a HT with a 'X squad inside'.


• c)the same but supported with a Stuka/Flammenwerfer HT

Case 3:

• a)attacking with PGrens supported by a muniHT a Rifleman squad.

British Trucks - why do you involve those? they are the "buildings" for the british you cannot compare them. The only common thing is that have wheels and reinforce infantry.

Paciat wrote:
The OP point is that you can drive near a HQ truck and rape British infantry with MP44 all day long.
Theres no need for a HT MG becouse MP44 firepower is all you need.

You probably seen an MP44 blob raping any infantry on the fiel untill it looses some men and need to reinforce.
With IHT you can allways be on the field (and secure points with mines too).
Normally you would need 40fuel more to do that but then UK would have Stuarts then so you would need Shrecks...

Thanks for telling me :D!! Now I understand your concern, but IMO PE insatiably hungry about munitions and if you are planting mines whenever the wind blows you wont have any weapon upgrade ready at that time.

If I were a british player facing that situation(base raping threat with muniHT and pgren w/MP44), I would probably expected that and have a trench "ready" for that use. Probably you will say "a fire grenade will do short work of that" but that's CoH about... great fights, traps & counters ;D. Perhaps if it's limited, just 1 unit on the field ???.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I actually think it will be fine. PGrens will still be dominated by Ami infantry and the reinforce cost of 45 is huge. It will fit in to the faction much better as a mobile force and can also help with some defensive operations. Though I think it's armour type should be changed from the wehr halftrack type to the infantry halftrack type as it's a little too resilient at that stage.

+1
Perhaps it could earn better armor with vet, I suppose that only gets defensive as all the PE vehicles that don't have weapons(except the bergetiger that has crappy hull mg) :P.

P.S. When I say traps i mean Camouflaged units and items as mines, charges or booby traps :P.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 6:23 AM by blackbishop

Booby traps can't be detected.

Something I just realised this awesome patch doesn't fix at all is trenches. The fact that building just one (for free) slows down PE teching by 20 fuel is unbelievably unfair. Trenches should require LT/Field Support.  --Offtopic, nobody respond to this but it's a point I just thought needed to be made.

Paciat: If he allowed you to get to his truck with an MP44 blob + halftrack I'd say he stuffed up anyway.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM by GodlikeDennis

You guys should wait and play a few games with the new patch before crying 'OP' or 'UP', because all the changes work together to change the game dynamics.

All these vanila changes have been very well thought of and tested.

Introducing balance changes to vanila factions is a 'slippery slope' ,which is why we have decided  to introduce only a minimal number of essential fixes which no one can really disagree on. Trenches isn't one of them (but if you noticed there is a small change cause infantry can no longer button vehicles when in a trench/Bren/building/Roo!).

Muni halftrack cannot transport troops and has no MG. Re-charging abilities and laying regular mines isn't that great since you have to have the muni for them. Reinforce and no fuel cost makes it a viable investment on a non combat vehicle for the fuel hungry PE

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 11:06 AM by Zerstörer

Anyway...I'll build you a monument for fixed Kangaroos!  :D

About Ammo HT i'll try it  ;)

Zerstörer wrote:
You guys should wait and play a few games with the new patch before crying 'OP' or 'UP', because all the changes work together to change the game dynamics.

There arent many very early game changes. British cant BREN button inside a trench or a BREN carrier (wish they could, its the Kangarro alone that needed a nerf) and PE have a usefull unit that can place mines near enemy base (like M-8). Witch fraction OF benefits more from 1.21?...

Im waiting for 1.21 ballance fix. :P

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 2:47 PM by Paciat

so many changes though, so many. I'd have to play a number of matches and assuming there's no bugs only then would i be able to call out what is OP or UP.

But i think at the moment the changes to the PE muni halftrack are good ones, i did find it kinda useless so hopefully this changes that.

Also nerfing the Soviets airplane bombing run was a  good call.
One thing i didn't see was a  change to the God of War ability. did i miss it or is this intentional?
Look forward to reward units. :)
I like the adaptations to the Soviets. but again i can only speculate so far the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

let's just wait for the patch and discuss it after playing. those changes were recommended by some very skilled and experienced coh players, so they'll probably do fine.

Chasing down vehicles (in a Roo or BrenCarrier), buttoning and raping them with piats is just wrong, hence the fix.

On the other hand without the elite armour vet2  flame pios there is more room for Brits now. And the densive bunker menace has now been curbed too..

A bren filled with PIAT sappers can still do just that...

I personally like every single change in the log except removing the AC detection radius. But that's just because snipers annoy me as PE.

Also, any word on GoW?

Zerstörer wrote:
Chasing down vehicles (in a Roo or BrenCarrier), buttoning and raping them with piats is just wrong, hence the fix.

On the other hand without the elite armour vet2  flame pios there is more room for Brits now. And the densive bunker menace has now been curbed too..

Im happy with all the wehrmacht changes.

But as I played UK skirmish to check out new Comet I found out that BREN button dosnt work at all! Even Tommies cant use it while on foot!

EDIT: Button works in houses but not on open ground... :-\

Zerstörer wrote:
All these vanila changes have been very well thought of and tested.

Yeah, right...

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 9:52 PM by Paciat

I can backup Paciat with this, I was soo freaking mad. Made me lose 3 tanks because I couldnt button the panther that was about to hit my wounded tanks.

I think that the muni halftruck will be a useful unit now (for the first time ever), but not really gamebreaking. I think the idea to make the muni halftruck reinforce soliders were good. I can't telle if it should cost 10 fuel before I have played with it for a bit.

Brens should be able to button on open ground, but this is just a bug and will mostlikely be fixed in the next pacth

I simply haven't played enough games with it to say whether its OP or not, but I have to disagree with the change since it drastically alters the functionality of the unit.

The Munitions Halftrack was there to encourage the use of abilities. These buffs don't really help with that. I'd suggest lowering the cost of the abilities it affects rather than allowing Reinforcement.

Alternatively, if you really do want the functionality to change, you could make it a generic "Supply Halftrack" that both reduces ability cooldowns and slowly heals. I just don't care for the idea of Reinforcement coming from both T1 and T2. They should be more diverse than that.

Last edited August 3, 2010 at 4:33 PM by Kolaris

Removing muni ht fuel cost was a good change, but I rather would give him a slow passive healing ability (that could work after purchasing base heal ability) than make mun ht able to reinforce.

Kolaris wrote:
I simply haven't played enough games with it to say whether its OP or not, but I have to disagree with the change since it drastically alters the functionality of the unit.

The Munitions Halftrack was there to encourage the use of abilities. These buffs don't really help with that. I'd suggest lowering the cost of the abilities it affects rather than allowing Reinforcement.

Alternatively, if you really do want the functionality to change, you could make it a generic "Supply Halftrack" that both reduces ability cooldowns and slowly heals. I just don't care for the idea of Reinforcement coming from both T1 and T2. They should be more diverse than that.

+1

i like the muni halftrack now
i rarely build it before(cause of the fuel cost)
but now that i have layed 6 or 7 1vs 1 vs a friend i found that it gives PE a lot of early game standing power!! thats great!
i also used the mines to good efect vs charging soviets...
my friend tried to rush for t-70 but luckily i was able to get marder!
also about what parciat said, i didnt have early mp 44 cause the map control was balanced and i didnt have so much much manpower cause of the heavy fighting
to put it short i love the muni halftrack! 8)

Pauly3 wrote:
i like the muni halftrack now
i rarely build it before(cause of the fuel cost)
but now that i have layed 6 or 7 1vs 1 vs a friend i found that it gives PE a lot of early game standing power!! thats great!
i also used the mines to good efect vs charging soviets...
my friend tried to rush for t-70 but luckily i was able to get marder!
also about what parciat said, i didnt have early mp 44 cause the map control was balanced and i didnt have so much much manpower cause of the heavy fighting
to put it short i love the muni halftrack! 8)

Thats what I ment when I started this topic. You spammed mines, (6 mines=2 MP44 upgrades) you had a Marder in time to fight a T-70/T-90 both AT guns and PTRD teams couldnt fight youre infantry, sharpshooters couldnt hurt you bad becouse you could reinforce and mortars couldnt hit a moveing target.
SU-85 could destroy a first Marder and that halftruck - thats where AT nades come in handy.

It should cost at least 10 fuel.

Crying about a vehicle that has one function: Reinforce??? I LOLed when I saw this. Its weaker than the other HTs and has NO offensive capabilities....it just sits and watches the battle...sorry, but in my opinion, keep it how it is, its a GREAT option when all you need is something to reinforce.

That's wronge mate, it's actually stronger than the other HTs. It has the same armour type as the Wehrmacht halftrack which is VERY resistant to small arms.

This thread has been up for ages and I still think it's fine. The reinforcing ability is balanced by PE reinforce costs. You don't see people screaming OP when people reinforce from an infantry half.