Why are existing units not upgraded with universal upgrades?

Just curious about this. I'm new to the mod and played 1.04 for a few days before realizing last night that 1.10 had come out.

In 1.04 I understood why existing conscripts wouldn't get an upgrade, due to the fact that they cost no pop, and when upgraded cost 1 pop. However, I was confused why no other units were allowed upgrades.

Now with 1.10 I really don't understand why existing units can't be given the universal upgrades once bought and paid for; especially since conscripts cost pop at all times now. I'm hoping this is not an issue with coding (like the weapon re-crew bug) and just a personal decision by the modding staff. Has it been tried in the past? I just find it annoying when I have half my units un-upgraded and have to kamikaze those obsolete units in order to make room in my pop cap...

1.10 is overall good imo tho. It helps to progress the mod and it makes the soviets feel much more like a "coh faction". Thanks for all the hard work! You guys are awesome!

Well, it does make sense that existing units doesn't get upgrades. I mean, why would your Conscript suddenly just morph into NKVD Conscript? That's just silly.

Although I can't remember how universal upgrades works for other factions, I haven't played CoH in a long time (I just came back for EF), and I only play as the Soviets.

QuoteI just find it annoying when I have half my units un-upgraded and have to kamikaze those obsolete units in order to make room in my pop cap...

A lot of people find this to be "cool" and that's why it is in the game. I, like you, don't feel like it fits in with the scale of battles that take place in CoH and would rather have this changed.

I think this could become a nuisance once vet and retreat are introduced. Because you want to plunge your vetted units into oblivion. :P

Flammenwerfer35 wrote:
Just curious about this. I'm new to the mod and played 1.04 for a few days before realizing last night that 1.10 had come out.

In 1.04 I understood why existing conscripts wouldn't get an upgrade, due to the fact that they cost no pop, and when upgraded cost 1 pop. However, I was confused why no other units were allowed upgrades.

Now with 1.10 I really don't understand why existing units can't be given the universal upgrades once bought and paid for; especially since conscripts cost pop at all times now. I'm hoping this is not an issue with coding (like the weapon re-crew bug) and just a personal decision by the modding staff. Has it been tried in the past? I just find it annoying when I have half my units un-upgraded and have to kamikaze those obsolete units in order to make room in my pop cap...

1.10 is overall good imo tho. It helps to progress the mod and it makes the soviets feel much more like a "coh faction". Thanks for all the hard work! You guys are awesome!

I think that it was a mistake that conscripts cost Pop cap and they will change it in the next patch. Anyway I still think that you should at the very least be able to buy new weapons to your old units when you have the upgrade.

tobier wrote:
Well, it does make sense that existing units doesn't get upgrades. I mean, why would your Conscript suddenly just morph into NKVD Conscript? That's just silly.

Although I can't remember how universal upgrades works for other factions, I haven't played CoH in a long time (I just came back for EF), and I only play as the Soviets.

Well the armory seems inspired by the american upgrade system. BARs, nades, etc. In the american faction it is a universal upgrade which all existing units are given once the upgrade is purchased. So this is where my confusion comes in, I have having to sack units because the existing crap units are eating my popcap.

I would be fine with individual unit upgrades like werm, or universal like american, but this half way thing is mildy annoying.

Flammenwerfer35 wrote:

tobier wrote:
Well, it does make sense that existing units doesn't get upgrades. I mean, why would your Conscript suddenly just morph into NKVD Conscript? That's just silly.

Although I can't remember how universal upgrades works for other factions, I haven't played CoH in a long time (I just came back for EF), and I only play as the Soviets.

Well the armory seems inspired by the american upgrade system. BARs, nades, etc. In the american faction it is a universal upgrade which all existing units are given once the upgrade is purchased. So this is where my confusion comes in, I have having to sack units because the existing crap units are eating my popcap.

I would be fine with individual unit upgrades like werm, or universal like american, but this half way thing is mildy annoying.

It's because of balance, these upgrades are very, very powerful, sometimes making the unit twice as good or even more.

@Rizz:
Fair enough, I do see that, but I still think it detracts from gameplay. When you are still using crap units you have to sac them to make room, no other faction is required to sac units in this manner and adds a certain unseen cost to soviet units that is not immediately apparent.

How about a mixture then? Some units (conscripts, ingenry, and the support units) should have a per unit upgrade system, with the remaining units keeping the universal upgrade applied to only new units as it is now.

Another idea is to have something in the armory like: "Production Logistics: the front is now well supplied, and reinforced" which then unlocks the ability to buy the universal upgrades. It allows the armory to stay at 100mp, but if appropriately costed to unlock the ability to begin purchasing the universal upgrades it might make retro-fitting existing units less op since it would be a huge investment just for the ability to begin unlocking those upgrades.

That said, I'm def fine with the tanks not being retro-fitted, its actually kinda cool seeing the different models, its just that infantry are so important to gameplay that having to sack units to open up pop is tedious and costly.

Last edited May 23, 2010 at 3:11 PM by Flammenwerfer35

Flammenwerfer35 wrote:
@Rizz:
Fair enough, I do see that, but I still think it detracts from gameplay. When you are still using crap units you have to sac them to make room, no other faction is required to sac units in this manner and adds a certain unseen cost to soviet units that is not immediately apparent.

I´m not up to date on what 1.10 does, but in the older versions Russian units could not retreat. This meant that units would easily die when pinned down and mortared. Under such conditions, it made perfect sense that upgrades were one-time-cost-universal, and it was not bad that you had to lose units to get the new upgraded ones (since they did not cost you anything extra).

Rizz, when retreat is an option in 1.20, have you thought about implementing existing units being upgraded with universal upgrades? Then you would just reduce either the buffs of those upgrades to balance it? Does this take alot of time to do? 

mj23007 wrote:
Rizz, when retreat is an option in 1.20, have you thought about implementing existing units being upgraded with universal upgrades? Then you would just reduce either the buffs of those upgrades to balance it? Does this take alot of time to do? 

We'll see, since there are plans to add a more substantial veterancy system, some upgrades might even be removed or decreased in power. Nothing decided yet, right now we are working on 1.11 -> then the main coder will probably finish up some (a lot?) Ostheer stuff and then start with 1.20 after an internal discussion.

Glad to hear, thanks for all your hard work!  I really cant wait for a retreat option, for me it will just feel more company of heroes..ish . Thanks!