SLIGHT history problem....please explain

I was reading over the "Guide" on the EF site , then I ran into this:::::

"SU-85
Our new SU-85 assault gun is the bane of the german armor. Specifically designed as a tank hunter, it excels at this role with its powerful 85mm gun and sloped armor. Be careful against infantry, as it has no machine gun for close defense. This tank is so good, there goes a rumor around that the Germans copied this design for a new development based on a panther chassis... "

Under my own impression the Germans did not use the SU-85 as a base idea for the JagdPanther (If thats what you were implying). They simply needed a better model than the Panzer 4 model. And they loved the performance the Panther model put out, same with the 88mm gun it had, so they obviously put two & two together. Besides if it was based off the idea of the Russian models, it shouldve seen alot more action in the Eastern Front than it really did, most the action they saw was in the western front. I've done alot of research on Germany and I have never come up on anything that says they based the JagdPanther off the SU85. Yes, it rivaled the SU100 (as said in the book Armored Warfare of World War Two: Eastern Terror. And in the book: Technology of War: Nazi Germany 1939-1945 it states Germany tried to stay within their own "minds" (so to speak), no outsider ideas. (A few exceptions, but not the SU85). I am currently studying to be a history professor, and all the things Ive read/seen/watched, I have never come across that idea. Sorry, you guys are great, but that statement is false

Well I can't possibly comment, my knowledge of tank design is limited - however the developer who wrote the guide left Eastern Front several months ago.

WartyX wrote:
Well I can't possibly comment, my knowledge of tank design is limited - however the developer who wrote the guide left Eastern Front several months ago.

Ok man, thanks for your time.

you do know that the panther was germany's version of the T-34 do you?

Versedhorison wrote:
you do know that the panther was germany's version of the T-34 do you?

Not to mention that whole "EF guide" is written in propaganda tone, which suggests that some information could be bended :) to serve a purpose of propaganda. It's not the encyclopaedia, it is a speech of Comrade Danko!

There also says that its a RUMOR.
Its means it may have didnt happen  ;)

Versedhorison wrote:
you do know that the panther was germany's version of the T-34 do you?

It was designed to COUNTER the T34, not based off it. Its two different meanings. And the T34 was supposed to be an American Tank, made by an American designer, but the design was rejected by the American government, so the designer went Germany, who obviously rejected it, then France and Britian, who couldnt afford it, so he finally went to the USSR, who paid the man nearly $20,000,000 for the design. (I cant remember the designer's name but once I find it ill post it on here) Heh, so if you think about it: Russia greatest weapon wasnt even a Russian idea.

I also put in "If you were implying that" into my comment, just in case they weren't talking about that.

Well, in that case as the self appointed 'resident expert' on tank design I'll explain to you the following to clarify things...

When the WH encountered the T34 they found it to be a 'generation ahead' in tank design compared to everything they had. It had heavily sloped armour all around(unlike any german tank), wide tracks for exceptional off road mobility even on mud and snow and the most powerful main gun that was very good at engaging both infantry and tanks at the time. This made it an exceptional all round tank(universal tank really. The soviets were the first to identify and strive to create it)

WH at the time had the infantry support PzIV whose gun was designed as rather short range anti infantry weapon with good HE.
The main battle tank was the PzIII with a short barreled  50mm gun which could engage tanks but was pathetically bad at engaging infantry...especially entrenched one at it lacked any decent HE. Both tanks had flat/vertical armour(0 chance of deflection) and inferior power/weight ratio + narrow tracks.
Two tanks needed to do what 1 T34 could do, aka support infantry and combat tanks with equal success.

There are actual reports and indeed there was a recommendation by Guderian to simply copy the T34 and use it. That wasn't done for 2 main reasons...
1) Germany didn't have the ability to mass produce the aluminum T34 engine
2)Morale-How could the Master Race copy and use something produced by the inferior bolshevics- Even Goebel wouldn't make that fly with anyone...

So the germans studied the T34 and copied the main design components that made it so successful (angled armour on all sides, increased power to weight ration for excellent off road mobility withwide tracks and a powerful main gun that could engage successfully tanks and infantry) They applied the german engineering spin to take it a step further creating the Panther.

The SU series ,based on T34/IS/KV, on the other hand somewhat copied the German philosophy of the Stug.
A fully enclosed turntless tank which was cheaper to produce than the turreted equivalent.
The T34 based SUs retained the angled armour. In addition, unlike and Stugs which also had the same, not better gun than the PZIv, they adopted bigger guns than the turrted equivalents. 85mm/122mm when the T34/76 was available and then 100mm when the T34/85 was available.
Jagdpanther/JagdpanzerIVs both later created once again matched the design in terms of creating a turrentless tank with slopped armour and a gun more powerful than that carried by the turreted version (88mm for the jagdpanther and 75L70 for the Jagdpanzer)...so although twisting it a bit..its still somewhat true

Also, soviets purchased the 'Christie suspension'. The actual tank design was Purely Soviet.
The difference can easily be seen when comparing the T34 to the Crussader Tank which was built at the same time by the British based on the same suspension. Both totally different tank designs

Last edited May 20, 2010 at 8:14 PM by Zerstörer

Concurred;
I recall the name was Walter Christie who sold his suspension to the brits and ruskies.

It seems the OP is boosting propaganda himself and then brings up a point most probably don't even notice or read :P. 


The wide tracks, diesel engine (both due to winter and mud testing), sloped armor for instance was during soviet era.



Without the war in the east; Germany probably did not need continually bigger tanks and anti tanks.

ThGermanElite wrote:

Versedhorison wrote:
you do know that the panther was germany's version of the T-34 do you?

It was designed to COUNTER the T34, not based off it. Its two different meanings. And the T34 was supposed to be an American Tank, made by an American designer, but the design was rejected by the American government, so the designer went Germany, who obviously rejected it, then France and Britian, who couldnt afford it, so he finally went to the USSR, who paid the man nearly $20,000,000 for the design. (I cant remember the designer's name but once I find it ill post it on here) Heh, so if you think about it: Russia greatest weapon wasnt even a Russian idea.

I also put in "If you were implying that" into my comment, just in case they weren't talking about that.

I despair at the fact you want to become a History professor when you spout such utter utter ballocks.

BurroDiablo wrote:

ThGermanElite wrote:

Versedhorison wrote:
you do know that the panther was germany's version of the T-34 do you?

It was designed to COUNTER the T34, not based off it. Its two different meanings. And the T34 was supposed to be an American Tank, made by an American designer, but the design was rejected by the American government, so the designer went Germany, who obviously rejected it, then France and Britian, who couldnt afford it, so he finally went to the USSR, who paid the man nearly $20,000,000 for the design. (I cant remember the designer's name but once I find it ill post it on here) Heh, so if you think about it: Russia greatest weapon wasnt even a Russian idea.

I also put in "If you were implying that" into my comment, just in case they weren't talking about that.

I despair at the fact you want to become a History professor when you spout such utter utter ballocks.

Alright, Ive had it, I finally made an account .

Hey dumbass [I.E. BurroDiablo], all I ever see you post is useless, degrading garbage, Im surprised the EF team let you on with that kind of shit attitude, they must have ALOT of patience with you.  ThGermanElite is actually right on some accounts....Read this book numbnuts:          http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/T-3476-Medium-Tank-1941%E2%80%9345_9781855323827/  So why dont you put something worth reading and stop posting useless smartass crap, try citing something to prove someone wrong, or does that hurt your tiny brain? Do something useful for once instead of wasting your time on here running your mouth because of your emotional problems from your mother beating you. You have some serious growing up to do son, you run your mouth without thinking....which is a miracle if you actually can think. I see other members of the EF team posting USEFUL information ,acting like an actual game development studio member, and being the person people can look up to for answers or just a leader......but never you, ohhh no, youre FAR from that, your just a little punk behind a keyboard who nobody likes. Even on Moddb.com you post childish antics which is REDICULOUS on some of the stuff you post on there....even the remark "Its like holding a cheesecake out to a fat woman, but not giving it to her" when the game was supposed to come out, and it made people confused to the reason why someone would hold EF from them, but not upload it just for the sake of getting entertainment from everyone's hype. But good ol' WartyX had to clean up your mess because EVERYONE kept asking "You guys have it but not giving it out?" "WTF is this shit? Youre just keeping it from us? Cant you post it now?" there were ALOT of people mad because of YOUR stupid posts, and he stayed up WAY longer than you did trying to get this out....a true leadership quality, and I have alot of respect for the man. So what makes you think you are better than everyone else in the world?

Wow! He told you off.

wordsmith wrote:

Versedhorison wrote:
you do know that the panther was germany's version of the T-34 do you?

Not to mention that whole "EF guide" is written in propaganda tone, which suggests that some information could be bended :) to serve a purpose of propaganda. It's not the encyclopaedia, it is a speech of Comrade Danko!

It utilized sloped armour and had the top speed to rival the T-34, that is about it.

I think we may see this in use again soon

Sounds a bit to me like you had issues in your childhood with a certain someone with very much the same attitude as Burro - yet didn't have the balls to do anything about it; subconsciously, or consciously your taking this out on Burro ;)

Sure, Burro can be a bitch - but just about everything he says is something just about all of us want to say, but rarely do; he's Scottish, it's to be expected.
Meanwhile, other than Halftrack - Burro is just about the closest of us to professional level, with the University course to prove it.


I'd say to you, if your only reason to join this forum is to try take pieces out of a Developer, and a damned good one at that - that plainly has gained the right to be a tit with his perfect works, then you can stop wasting our payed for bandwidth and piss off.


We use our own time making this mod - we enjoy it, last thing we want is internet rager putting a downer on our day.
Move along, go find something better in your life to do than swear at random guys you've never met and likely never will, i find it hard to believe that's the best way you can think of to use your time, grow up.

Savvy?



ThGermanElite, as stated the Guide is very much propaganda based and i doubt the author was the most historically minded of people.
There are plans to update and replace the Guide with an easier to understand, use and access information base - for the Soviets and Ostheer.



Explanation reached.

Last edited May 21, 2010 at 12:44 PM by Dragon93

PEisOP, what you says goes for you as well, can you quote me a reliable source that says the panther is not derived from the T34.
Also, "derived from" is up for multiple interpretations.
Lastly, such an attack on someone, especially in the tone and language used by you, is uncalled for.

Cheers

I couldn't disagree about the panther being "derivated from" the T34. Thanks to that the panthers were "born". Well to PEisOP, quite a name, hello and good bye :).

Gonna close this thread, since there's starting to be a bit of a flame war.