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Soviet Veterancy

Red Army Suggestions

#32996

Soviet Veterancy

Being private in Red Army was very miserable. Every time they were being part of "fearsome" assaults. If somebody survived few assaults like that, he could call himself a veteran. So idea is simple. Units gain experience for surviving on the battlefield. If longer unit lives, the higher rank it gets.
Example:
Unit of conscripts took part in few assaults and, they didn't get killed ( I mean squad, not members). After few minutes they get vet1 level, increasing their stats, because they get some important experience how to fight ( or how to avoid certain death).
Time spent on the battlefield and experience gained:
5 minutes - vet 1
10 minutes- vet2
20 minutes- vet3

Tanks, at guns, and every Soviet unit gains experience in this way.
Forum post image

Lord wrote:
OSTHEER IS DONE WHEN IT'S DONE!
#32997

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Soooo...you'll not going to pay for vet...or gain it through combat...but gain it simply sitting idle for 5 mins...in other words where as everyone else has to earn it in some way...you just get it fooooorrrr...just playing the game...free
I think you miss the foundamental reasons behind 'vet function' in COH and this is a BIG NO, sorry.
R.I.P MrScruff - A genuine Good Guy and great artist
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#33011

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Soviets = blobing.
Thats the way it was in WWII and thats the way it is in COH.
Creating a bigger blob with bigger guns and not caring much about individual units. That is what Soviets are all about.
No vet works well with no retreat, expensive reinforce and blobbing.
Soviet players shouldnt worry much about their constripts (or even T-34/76) just becouse their vet3.

No vet for Soviets!
My Ostheer concept.
#33014

Re: Soviet Veterancy

yea, letting the conscripts get veterency would, in my opinion, defeat the purpose of having them upgradeable.
"It is better to fight for something than live for nothing." George Patton
#33041

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I think on top of the classic "get kills" veterancy Red Army units would then unlock upgrades. I don't kow if that would work in COH but it sort of reflects the context: if you're  "veteran" you're entitled to better weapons. So the upgrades the Red Army has right now would be automatically appleid to any unit what achieves veterancy. Obviously being three levels the variety would have to be expanded.

For example, the Conscripts start as no upgrades: level 1 unlocks more rifles in the squad; level 2 gives all rifles and/or a commissar; and level 3 allows all men to have weapons as well as side upgrades costing munitiosn for, say, submachine guns and the like for more versatility. Obviously a conscript squad isn't much use being a low-grade ifnantry, but being Russia a player would want to utlilzie whatever means to achieve victory. Ultimately though, just like how Pioniers cannot replace Volksgrenadiers, so does the veteran Conscript squad utlimately cannot replace even a level 0 Strelky or Guard

This alleviates the issue of blobbing and at least gives players the incentive to conserve their units rather than wasting them away; however the option of blobbing, more useful to the Russian player due to the faction's style, is still available. Soviet units should have some sort of veterancy, but still dominated by the "quantity over quality" doctrine.

Last edited April 30, 2010 at 7:48 AM by comrade_daelin

#33086

Re: Soviet Veterancy

NOOOOOOOOOO, not a good idea.
"Know God, No Fear. No God, Know Fear"
-Favorite Faction: Panzer Elite
-Favorite Unit (all-time): Tiger/Grenadiers
-Favorite Strategy: Quality over Quantity
-Favorite Doctrine: Scorched Earth
-Favorite Soviet Unit: UpGunned T-34
#33614

Re: Soviet Veterancy


How about get upgrades for free - ONCE got vet AND ONCE
unlocked said upgrade in armory. Make upgrades in armory
cheaper, yet, must be earned vet-wise?

Example :

Conscripts vet 1 : can unlock something, but nothing
researched yet.

Research done for more rifles, say. Then they can buy
more rifles for free. Or a NKVD officer with PPSH or grenades
;) See?
You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity
#33624

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I agree, soviets need a veteran system. I like to a degree the OP's idea but it needs tweaking or at least some elaboration. If time is all you need than some dude will spam them and keep them in his base until they're a level 3. If it is based off of # kills that is something more useful or even number of casualties sustained in combat compare to the kills. Or an even more wild idea, the more casualties you sustain without loosing the squad, the higher veterency you get.

My two cents,
-Nathan
"Left 20, up 40, one round HE.....HANG IT!....FIRE!"
#33626

Re: Soviet Veterancy

There's also other possible way to give Soviets vet system - more dmg they take (more bullet/tank shells they take on), more XP they get, BUT - to avoid sending teams on heavy fire to lose many man and the retreat with exp, simple system - if squad size is n, then losing every man lowers veterancy (all gained exp) by 1/n. Losing one coscript lowers squad veterancy by 1/8, losing one NKVD conscript - 1/9, one guard - 1/6 and so on.
Forum post image
#33627

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Most Soviet squads dosnt live long enough to gain vet. If they get vet they will be the priority target for germans so they will live even shorter.

No retreat, global upgrades, cheap units and expensive reinforce work well in this game.
Upgrades for ammo balance wehrmacht vet for fuel.

The only real problem for Soviets is that they dont have an IS-2 unlock,
or a KV-1->KV/85->IS-2 double armory upgrade,
or an armory upgrade that can be done after upgunning T-34 or SU.
My Ostheer concept.
#33628

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Zerstörer wrote:
Soooo...you'll not going to pay for vet...or gain it through combat...but gain it simply sitting idle for 5 mins...in other words where as everyone else has to earn it in some way...you just get it fooooorrrr...just playing the game...free
I think you miss the foundamental reasons behind 'vet function' in COH and this is a BIG NO, sorry.


Well, I thought that units in COH should fight with enemy, no sitting idle in base...
PoldekPL wrote:
There's also other possible way to give Soviets vet system - more dmg they take (more bullet/tank shells they take on), more XP they get, BUT - to avoid sending teams on heavy fire to lose many man and the retreat with exp, simple system - if squad size is n, then losing every man lowers veterancy (all gained exp) by 1/n. Losing one coscript lowers squad veterancy by 1/8, losing one NKVD conscript - 1/9, one guard - 1/6 and so on.


I like this idea - it's simple, as long as Soviets won't be able to retreat.
Forum post image

Lord wrote:
OSTHEER IS DONE WHEN IT'S DONE!
#33673

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Heres an idea:
Soviets gain veterancy in different ways:
Infantry and support units (Light vehicles, Artillery etc) can gain veterancy through experience (Just like American) and once infantry hit Vet 2 they gain the ability to retreat.
Tanks gain it through research, however have maybe 4-5 expensive veterancy upgrades for the tanks.

I like the current vet system a bit, but it could always go for some changes :)
"Know God, No Fear. No God, Know Fear"
-Favorite Faction: Panzer Elite
-Favorite Unit (all-time): Tiger/Grenadiers
-Favorite Strategy: Quality over Quantity
-Favorite Doctrine: Scorched Earth
-Favorite Soviet Unit: UpGunned T-34
#35080

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Paciat wrote:
Soviets = blobing.
Thats the way it was in WWII and thats the way it is in COH.
Creating a bigger blob with bigger guns and not caring much about individual units. That is what Soviets are all about.
No vet works well with no retreat, expensive reinforce and blobbing.
Soviet players shouldnt worry much about their constripts (or even T-34/76) just becouse their vet3.

No vet for Soviets!


This is the best idea ive heard for the veterancy
Death To The Fatherland!
#35454

Re: Soviet Veterancy

ThGermanElite wrote:
Heres an idea:
Soviets gain veterancy in different ways:
Infantry and support units (Light vehicles, Artillery etc) can gain veterancy through experience (Just like American) and once infantry hit Vet 2 they gain the ability to retreat.
Tanks gain it through research, however have maybe 4-5 expensive veterancy upgrades for the tanks.

I like the current vet system a bit, but it could always go for some changes :)



I like the retreat option after say the units have been upgraded.  WW2 was just men thrown against the Germans to keep them at bay till the Russians came up with better tactics/weapons...etc, but like some others have posted, once the Russians took control of their lines they didn't keep the same tactics for the whole war.  No retreat in early game but retreat later sounds like a good idea.
Keep on with the Keep on
#35461

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Shortleged1 wrote:
ThGermanElite wrote:
Heres an idea:
Soviets gain veterancy in different ways:
Infantry and support units (Light vehicles, Artillery etc) can gain veterancy through experience (Just like American) and once infantry hit Vet 2 they gain the ability to retreat.
Tanks gain it through research, however have maybe 4-5 expensive veterancy upgrades for the tanks.

I like the current vet system a bit, but it could always go for some changes :)



I like the retreat option after say the units have been upgraded.  WW2 was just men thrown against the Germans to keep them at bay till the Russians came up with better tactics/weapons...etc, but like some others have posted, once the Russians took control of their lines they didn't keep the same tactics for the whole war.  No retreat in early game but retreat later sounds like a good idea.


I was thinking that if they "Proved" themselves on the battlefield, the leaders/Stalin would take an interest in the unit and allow them to retreat without consequences, giving them amnesty. Your idea is interesting too.
"Know God, No Fear. No God, Know Fear"
-Favorite Faction: Panzer Elite
-Favorite Unit (all-time): Tiger/Grenadiers
-Favorite Strategy: Quality over Quantity
-Favorite Doctrine: Scorched Earth
-Favorite Soviet Unit: UpGunned T-34
#35469

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Removed because it was a flaming post-Be constructive and drop the attitude or don't post at all
Just live your life the best way you can, do what makes you happy, and never look back

Last edited May 29, 2010 at 7:42 AM by Zerstörer

#35470

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Well if you want vet to go on 'Surviving' than whats stopping someone from hoarding a battlegroup away in a corner for vet 3 than charging in with kick@$$ soldiers?

that was quite rude YKN.
It actually isn't that bad of an idea, its just that its easily minipulated.
Molly: " It's our rock garden"
Dwight: "What are you farming, Bullcrap?"

You Are a Rebel Spy and a traitor to the Empire!
~Darth Vader

Any typos found may be given to Seeme.

Last edited May 28, 2010 at 2:09 AM by Akalonor

#35481

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Here is my opinion on how to do veterncy;
Lets take the conscript. That squad goes into battle and if they kill two enemy squads without losing half the squad they promote once. This continues on wards until they are Vet three.
Tanks like the T-34 have to kill either two squads or two enemy vehicles without going to half-life to promote.
This idea removes that the soviet player can just simply kill squads and then reinforce before taking on the second.
No one can stop the German panzer divisions.
#35528

Re: Soviet Veterancy

YouKnowNOTIHNG wrote:
Hmmmm, woooooooooooow, Ive never seen so many bad ideas in one place at the same time. Heres an idea: The modders wont take any of these ideas they will stay in thier own idea bubble, so dont waste your ideas here, and dont get ur hopes up, so all you can do is play the game

Akalonor wrote:
that was quite rude YKN.
It actually isn't that bad of an idea, its just that its easily minipulated.


That was actually VERY rude. And not only that, but some of these ideas are decent.

What are you to talk? You're not one of the mods, and you don't have any conception of what they do. You should really read back on your topic you started about mods listening to ideas.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to incorporate every single awesome idea into the game, it wouldn't work right. So they take the ideas and make their own concepts around them.

Like the Ostheer suggestion. HUNDREDS of devoted users created a complex Ostheer faction, with call in units, special build orders, brand new units, doctrines, the whole nine.

Will the mods likely select just ONE of them to be the Ostheer? No.

Can the mods integrate all the suggestions into one thing? It's impossible.

The mods were given the suggestion so they could actually take the same ideas, and build on them a bit. Sure, maybe my suggestion wasn't that great. But maybe the Mods want to take the 2 Pioneer Squad idea from my suggestion. (That's a total example, not that they would?)

Saying that the mods don't care about our ideas at all is an overgeneralized statement. And saying these ideas a horrendous is just a stupid comment. What suggestions and ideas have you brought to the table so far, Hmmm?


Do NOT just join the forum and then bring a negative spirit to the mod please. We are all trying to have fun with the mod, and we want to be an active part of the community.



Back on topic: I don't really know how veteran should be done. I put a system together like the Wehrmacht's, but it's got large amounts of options, and selects for specific units (IE, all Pioneers)
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#35578

Re: Soviet Veterancy

YouKnowNOTIHNG wrote:
Hmmmm, woooooooooooow, Ive never seen so many bad ideas in one place at the same time. Heres an idea: The modders wont take any of these ideas they will stay in thier own idea bubble, so dont waste your ideas here, and dont get ur hopes up, so all you can do is play the game


Nice to see that you are making such informed observations after spending such a long time on the forums. Your name is so very fitting, last month we actually asked for community ideas on veterancy for the Soviet faction, so this will be the one thread which we pay attention to. Nice try at scaremongering, though.
Forum post image
#35592

Re: Soviet Veterancy

YKN , remember the entire Human Race is not a bunch of Arrogant idiots, I don't know how old you are but that may lend a hand to your perception.
Molly: " It's our rock garden"
Dwight: "What are you farming, Bullcrap?"

You Are a Rebel Spy and a traitor to the Empire!
~Darth Vader

Any typos found may be given to Seeme.
#35669

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Seems as if YouKnowNothing is the keyboard warrior trying to get shit stirred up...just ignore worthless people.
Keep on with the Keep on

Last edited May 29, 2010 at 4:46 PM by Shortleged1

#35702

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I'll start with you .... haha just kidding ;) But you have a point .
Molly: " It's our rock garden"
Dwight: "What are you farming, Bullcrap?"

You Are a Rebel Spy and a traitor to the Empire!
~Darth Vader

Any typos found may be given to Seeme.
#36111

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Personally I like the idea of both purchasable vet and the ability to retreat. At the same time I would like to see the soviets overall qualities of low cost, low skilled infantry retained. Perhaps as a compromise the retreat option could be a purchasable upgrade.
I think, therefore I am...
I learn, therefore I advance...
I destroy, that I may endure.
#38650

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I think that veterans mast became all units. And Veterancy mast bee general.
#38859

Re: Soviet Veterancy

a fun idea : a T1 unit working hard (3* kill it's number) could be upgraded :
conscrit +24 kill => strelski
strel +18 k => guard

maybe with some added price and just at base or reinf point
pleeeease criticize or comment my ostheer try
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3265.0
#38862

Re: Soviet Veterancy

An idea I've seen here on the forum:

You can make an upgrade in the armoury so that you can give a unit a medal. The medal gives them veterancy.

You can give units different medals that gives them different boosts.

You have to first upgrade the medal in the armoury and then upgrade it for the unit. Only a limited number of units can get medals, and there are different medals for tanks, support teams or infantry.

I bet the devs can find a way so people won't just give medals to the best people like IS2's and guards, but also to other units.
#38888

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Toorstain wrote:
An idea I've seen here on the forum:

You can make an upgrade in the armoury so that you can give a unit a medal. The medal gives them veterancy.

You can give units different medals that gives them different boosts.


You mean something like this :) ?:


Prestige center - Veterancy

Prestige center building serves as gathering point for experience. Units doesn't become veterans by experience, instead all experienced is counted inside this building and can be checked every time clicking on it. For those experience points medals can be granted to particular units, making it then more valuable in combat:

Forum post image

25exp Iron Cross 1st class
50exp German Cross
90exp Knight's Cross

Each medal is then displayed with unit's banner similar to PE def/off veterancy. Each unit can receive only 1 individual medal, it doesn't have to have lower medals to receive bigger one. So it is possible to distribute a Knight's cross to a unit without any medal. Effect of medals are cumulative, higher medal has bigger impact. Medals could also grant some special ability, but I haven't thought those yet.

Example of Tiger with all medals:

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Medal benefits to units can be in general:

Infantry
Iron Cross: Max.health 1.1, Accuracy 1.1, Reload 0.9
German Cross: Max.health 1.2, Received damage 0.85, Received accuracy 0.85
Knight's Cross: Max.health 1.3, Received suppression 0.75, Damage 1.5

Guns
Iron Cross: Max.health 1.1, Accuracy 1.1, Reload 0.9
German Cross: Max.health 1.1, Received damage 0.9, Received accuracy 0.9
Knight's Cross: Max.health 1.3, Received accuracy 0.9, Damage 1.5

Vehicles
Iron Cross: Max.speed 1.1, Accuracy 1.1
German Cross: Max.health 1.2, Penetration 1.3
Knight's Cross:  Received damage 0.8, Damage 1.5


I think medal system would be better for Ostheer than for Soviets, Soviet army is too mass and was known to prefer collective more instead of individuality.
-->EF Comic book, enjoy!

Last edited June 27, 2010 at 7:59 PM by wordsmith

#38897

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Personally I really like the medal idea for Ostheer, pretty much exactly how wordsmith describes it sounds great.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#38898

Re: Soviet Veterancy

well i d like a système like that for infantry:
_one level with XP to get aim, a unit which had that could then be got removed but would then give a +1 man svt to other units to gain a health level
_one level with that man for health-unit
_one level for speed gained by caping
pleeeease criticize or comment my ostheer try
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3265.0
#38905

Re: Soviet Veterancy

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Personally I really like the medal idea for Ostheer, pretty much exactly how wordsmith describes it sounds great.

+1!!!!!
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#38913

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Soviet veterancy will change the entire infantry of soviet army. It would be strange to have "conscript vet3": they would be logically guards then! I like the way vet is for soviet, but I'm curious about the new stuff dev will bring (hopely soon  ;D ok ok I go out!!).

"Du sublime au ridicule, il n'y a qu'un pas"
-Napoléon Bonaparte
#39283

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Honestly, I like the way how "veterancy" works right now. Only the units which are produced after the upgrade get vetted. This makes you reluctant to do everything for keeping your "old" units alive - what causes more casualities on soviet side and mirrors the fact that russian generals did not care that much about losses in men...

Perfect right now.
#39294

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I really dont care about vet, I really dont. I dont vet my things when am wher. Thats probaly why I am crap with them ;D.
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

Coh Name: Seeme
#39324

Re: Soviet Veterancy

HansBlix wrote:
Honestly, I like the way how "veterancy" works right now. Only the units which are produced after the upgrade get vetted. This makes you reluctant to do everything for keeping your "old" units alive - what causes more casualities on soviet side and mirrors the fact that russian generals did not care that much about losses in men...

Perfect right now.

Except it's only global upgrades right now, not vet. Good players also don't like the fact that it contradicts unit preservation, so that your units on the field that you keep alive aren't as good as new ones built. I don't particularly mind the system though and will love when vet is put in.

Seeme wrote:
I really dont care about vet, I really dont. I dont vet my things when am wher. Thats probaly why I am crap with them ;D.


I would say so seeme. Do you not know the advantage elite armour grens gives? -25% received accuracy and damage taken is immense. Vet 1 on MG42s is absolutely mental, improving their accuracy by about 50% and decreasing their reload timer. Tanks get the equivalent of 15% more health at cheap vet 1. The bonuses are pretty insane. Vet 3 pumas do 50% extra damage, with the upgun they do as much damage as a panzer 4.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#39882

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I have an idea, you can buy veterancy for units like upgrades It will be locked by xps. Example unit will kill ten soldiers(and get 20 xp) and now there will show in upgrade slot upgrade(cost 25 mun) for lvl 1. You can buy it or wait until the unit get 20 kills(40 xp) and there will be in upgrade slot vet 2 ugrade(cost 50 mun)...same with lvl 3(60 xp, 75 mun cost, you can set it how you want :)) !!!But you can buy only one vet level. so when you will buy vet 1, you cant buy vet 2 anymore.

picture-example on volks
Forum post image


Forum post image
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2904.0 - How should look Ostheer to be original
#39941

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Thats alot of kills for a volksgenider...
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

Coh Name: Seeme
#39950

Re: Soviet Veterancy

As I said, It's example. I did it only to understand to my idea. Don't care about how many kills you need to get vet3....
Forum post image
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2904.0 - How should look Ostheer to be original
#40064

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Unr3aL wrote:
I have an idea, you can buy veterancy for units like upgrades It will be locked by xps. Example unit will kill ten soldiers(and get 20 xp) and now there will show in upgrade slot upgrade(cost 25 mun) for lvl 1. You can buy it or wait until the unit get 20 kills(40 xp) and there will be in upgrade slot vet 2 ugrade(cost 50 mun)...same with lvl 3(60 xp, 75 mun cost, you can set it how you want :)) !!!But you can buy only one vet level. so when you will buy vet 1, you cant buy vet 2 anymore.

picture-example on volks
Forum post image


Its a very good idea man. The prices are for sure to "expensive", they should need about 30 kills to get vet 3.

5->15->30


But in gerneal, very nice one. Also another idea for the ostheer, if the devs got a vet sys for the soviets already.




Regards,

-V-
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#40100

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Prices are so big cause Russians don't need lot munitions(they dont pay unit abilities/doct abilities) and with those prices they will need to save munitions like other sides.

And don't care about that picture
Unr3aL wrote:
As I said, It's example. I did it only to understand to my idea. Don't care about how many kills you need to get vet3....
Forum post image
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2904.0 - How should look Ostheer to be original

Last edited July 9, 2010 at 2:31 AM by Unr3aL

#40106

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Unr3aL wrote:
Prices are so big cause Russians don't need lot munitions(they dont pay unit abilities/doct abilities) and with those prices they will need to save munitions like other side.

And don't care about that picture
Unr3aL wrote:
As I said, It's example. I did it only to understand to my idea. Don't care about how many kills you need to get vet3....


+1
Unr3aL wrote:

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I like this way of vet for soviets. In fact I suggested a similar vet for the ostheer i think... a long time ago, but without the kills as requirement; but your idea is very good 8).

wordsmith wrote:

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25exp Iron Cross 1st class
50exp German Cross
90exp Knight's Cross

Forum post image


I like this for Ostheer... But I don't know what kind of vet dev's have thought for them, probably neither of these :(.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#40108

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I saw your concept with one eye :), but i thought you'll get all three vet types. First Iron, then German...
Forum post image
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2904.0 - How should look Ostheer to be original
#40110

Re: Soviet Veterancy

I think wordsmith is to much like pe and american,but dose seem cool.
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

Coh Name: Seeme
#40111

Re: Soviet Veterancy

There are 3 more vet posiblities if u get them by fighitng. One vet level, 4 vet level, or 3 vet level(every level means better equipmnet or new ability). But I think that my choosable vet idea is much better then those three.
Forum post image
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2904.0 - How should look Ostheer to be original
#40117

Re: Soviet Veterancy

Seeme wrote:
I think wordsmith is to much like pe and american,but dose seem cool.


Yes I was inspired by PE and I like to play PE most - hopefully Ostheer will change that :). But there is difference because my point was that experience is gathered globally and commander gives the veterancy only to units he wants to.

It could be tactical decision f.e. to wait for some heavy tank and then put all XP in form of medals into this new produced tank which didn't even seen combat. But as for big picture you could imagine that the good prestige of commander allowed him to bring some exprienced unit from other part of EF to his battlefield which could explain that this particular unit is vetted even if it didn't participate in ongoing battle.

As stated before, this for me feels more like Ostheer veterancy not Soviet...
-->EF Comic book, enjoy!