Neosdarks Third Attempt at a Good Ostheer

  Neosdark's Ostheer Concept


Right then, this is my 3rd attempt to design a good Ostheer plan. It address’ my earlier organization problem and various other issues. Please do comment on any problems you see with the concept.




1. General Stuff

The idea would be to have an HQ in a base area that can be connected to the sectors through building special buildings that can produce units. The more sectors you control in this fashion (for a maximum of 5 buildings) the more units you can make. The buildings can create units depending on what sector they are in: base control points provide you with balanced vehicles and infantry, the fuel sectors that allow you to deploy powerful tanks and vehicles, and munition bases deploy powerful infantry.

Each of these bases also comes with a slight buff to the resources recieved. A problem that they have is that the main base does not come with MGs because of the Blitz style tactics didn’t really involve too many defensive operations .

Sturm-Pioneers, which create the buildings these guys use, can capture sectors swiftly, but cannot build defenses save for mines, and a small dugout that can be garrisoned by a Jaeger squad or a Volkssturm squad (if the Jaeger squad is inside the dugout it's covered by leaves and camouflaged with him).









2. Buldings



Ost-Operations Center


Produces:

Sturm-Pioneers [3 man squad, armed with 3 MP 3008s, upgrade with Mine Detectors, can capture swiftly and build mines and dugouts]




Universal Upgrades:

Uber-Blitz- increases the speed at which all units capture and allows garrisoned vehicles to capture. (500 manpower),

Defensive Operations- This upgrade allows you to train Defense Pioneers from the Operations Center and Infantry Command Barracks. This new emphasis on the defensive also allows for our Infantry to create trenches for free and allows for the Scharfschütze Der Ostfront to upgrade to the Jäger-Band. These trenches can fit up to 7 people and/or 2 squads. (Sturm-Pioneers can still be produced) -250 Manpower, 20 Fuel.

Tank Command - Allows you to deploy the Panther Ausf.A from the Panzer Deployment Hanger. With our new Wunder-waffen out on the front we are given APCR rounds for all Tanks to improve their capabilities even more . You may pay 40 Munitions to activate the APCR rounds for 50 Seconds - 300 Manpower, 25 Fuel.









Ost-Recruitment Barracks (250 Manpower)

This building can only be built in the main base territory.


Produces:

Volkssturm [4 men, Armed with 2 MP 3008 and 2 Kar98k, with no special abilities this poorly trained squad of civillians is our first line of defense against any enemies we may encounter. Surely stronger and better equipped than a Soviet Conscript squad, they are lacking in firepower and number against most other squads, 250 manpower, 4 pop.],

Kübelwagen- This light, unarmored car, has an MG34 and a large sight radius. Use it to stalk snipers and scout out targets for artillery. Combines the speed of the Motorcycle and the reverse capabilities of the Schwimmwagen, so slightly more expensive then the two- 220 Manpower, 2 Pop.

Scharfschütze Der Ostfront [2 man sniper squad that is armed with a scoped StG-44 and 1 MP-40] Act similar in nature to the Russian sniper teams but have only 2 abilities and no artillery capabilities abilities, they instead have a full-auto sniper rifle and the abilities to camouflage (moving camo) and the ability to upgrade with another 2 members into the sniper squad creating the Jäger Band. [350 manpower, 6 pop.]

(Jäger Band-a 4 man sniper squad with 1 scoped Kar98k, 1 scoped StG-44 and 2 StG-44. The Jaeger Band upgrade requires for the Wunderwaffen and Defensive Operations upgrades to be purchased and causes an increase in the pop cost by 2 and gives them more firepower and survivability. The upgrade also removes the Walking Camo and instead adds a slight amount of extra range and sight into the fog. [For upgrade you need 120 munitions, 8 pop.]




Universal Upgrades:

Last Ditch Perfection-Replace all Kar 98ks with VG-1-5 (costs 100 manpower)







The building that can be built on regular control points would be the
Ostheer Battalion Barracks(250 Manpower 20 Fuel):

Produces:

Sturmgrenadiers- backbone of the Ostheer [6 man squad armed with MP 40, that can be upgraded with Suomi m/1931, PzB 39 Anti-Tank Rifle or Gewehr 43s for better close or long-range combat. The PzB can function similar to a more powerful and longer range Kar98k against Human targets, but it really shines against light tanks and vehicles were it can quickly destroy them within a few shots. Be careful  (2 upgrade slots that upgrade 3 people for 1 upgrade), can use bundled grenades, 350 manpower, 6 pop.]

Panzer III- [with the 3.7 cm KwK 36 L/46.5 gun, that has 3 potential upgrades,

1)an upgrade to the larger 5 cm KwK 39 L/60,

2)a flamethrower upgrade to the Flammpanzer III (F1)  Flamethrower tank-a Flamethrower tank that can still use its main gun and has its hull-MG replaced with a flamethrower or

3) the Artillerie-Panzerbeobachungswagen III - Forward artillery observer tank that has a dummy gun that masks a MG 34 and a another MG 34 in the ball turret that has a large line of sight and can call in small Mortar Barrages. Either upgrade is 100 munitions each [500 manpower, 30 fuel, 5 pop. ],


Twin Mortar Squad- [5 men, armed with 1 MP-40 and 2 5-cm leGrW 36 mortar, this 2 mortar squad is large but must be defended since there is only one free member, 350 Manpower, 5 pop. Can use Mortar Barrages and each mortar has its own barrage placement area (so u can target 2 areas at one time.)]

Boher 4.7 cm PaK- This PaK was designed by Austria’s military and a few fell into our hands during the Anschluss. Our Italian comrades love this gun so we decided to give it a try. Operated by 3 Italian gunners and 1 German officer this AT gun is good against Vehicles and Meduim tanks but lacks the firepower to take on heavier tanks and also has poor accuracy against smaller targets, so infantry are harder to hit. The difference in nationality between operators can sometimes cause confusion in orders and thus make them shoot at wrong targets, but for this loss they have a longer range and tend to aim for tanks more than vehicles. Can use Tungsten-core Shells for 50 munitions per Activation, lasts 30 seconds (200 Manpower, 20 fuel, 4 pop.)




Universal Upgrades:

Wunderwaffen-Exchanges all MP-40s and VG1-5 for StG-44s. (200 manpower, 20 fuel), 









The building on the fuel sector is the
Panzer Deployment Hanger (300 Manpower 40 Fuel):




Produces:

Panzer 4 Ausf. F1 [Armed with short-barreled gun this tank is similar to the PE Panzer 4 IST, but lacks its signature Lockdown ability.

Instead it possess Conversion to the Panzer 4 Ausf. F2 with the longer barreled gun, however the MG 42/Side skirt combo pack is possible to purchase without a conversion. The upgrades can both be used at the same time
Upgrades: F2 long-barrel costs 75 munitions, MG34 and side-skirt combo costs 50 munitions, 450 manpower 40 fuel, 6 pop.
 



Panther Ausf A[ Lower speed then the Wehr and PE Panther, but similar gun this Panther is cheaper to make and takes up less population but is also easier to outrun for the T-34s, this Panther comes with a nasty surprise,  APCR rounds to make the T-34 even bigger scrap heaps and turn IS-2 into metal shavings.  Needs the Panzer Command upgrade to be built and automaticly comes with APCR rounds.
Upgrades: MG 42/skirts (75 munitions) Cost 560 manpower 65 fuel, 9 pop. ]

Flakpanzer 38(t)[ Light converted tank armed with a single Flak 38, that is very good against planes and infantry this Flakpanzer is fast but has pretty light armor so it is easier to destroy than the comparable Ostwind or Wirblewind. 400 manpower, 30 fuel, 5 pop]



Universal Upgrades:

Forced Labor- All vehicles and tanks are manufactured at 1.5 the regular production speed letting our tanks arrive at the front faster. (300 manpower and 100 fuel)









The final building can only be built on munition sectors and it is the:
Infantry Command Barracks(200 MP 50 Fuel)

Produces:



SS-Panzergrenadiers [Powerful infantry that can mount Panzer 3s and 4s, these 5 man squads are armed with 5 MP-40s, these infantry can be upgraded with, G43 w/scope, MG 42s, captured PPSh-41s, or the SS weapon pack that comes with 1 MG42, 2 PPSh-41, and 2 G43 to insure maximum capabilities against all targets for different situations. They are very vulnerable to AI tanks when dismounted from their vehicles. (400 manpower, 6 population, have 5 weapons vacancy slots for 1 upgrade for each person)


Panzer-Jäger Assualt Squad- As their name says, these gritty veterans are skilled at finding and hunting down the pathetic Soviet armor. 5 men armed with 2 PzB 39 AT rifles, 2 Panzerschrecks and a single Suomi m/1931 SMG they can easily destroy any armored target. Infantry are, however, a tad of a problem so keep it supported with Infantry killers. -340 Manpower, 6 pop. No upgrade slots



Defense-Pioneers- [these 4 tough engineer units are armed with 4 G-41(W) and fulfill very similar in role to the British sappers, they can be equipped with Mine-Detectors, Twin Flamethrowers, and Advanced Repair. They also build mines, barbed wire, tank traps, and special Bunkers that can be upgraded with three separate upgrades:

1) A Flak Bunker with 2 Flak 38s on the roof designed to take on infantry and planes. This is a cheap alternative for the Flakpanzer 38(t), but stationary and with less range.

2) A special Medicinal Bunker that houses medics that treat soldiers wounds and can also be upgraded to repair vehicles in close proximity (this costs an extra (NOTE: Do not recover soldiers in the field that are wounded).

3) Infiltration Bunker- a special bunker that allows you to move infantry from one bunker to another. You can only deploy 2 at a time and they help in moving troops from your base to the front and vice-versa, takes different amounts of time to get to the front depending on distances between bunkers.

Bunkers cost 200 Manpower each, the upgrades are each 75 munitions. 300 manpower, 4 pop. Mines are 50 munitions and Tank Traps are free.]




Panzerwerfer 15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 auf Selbstfahrlafette Sd.Kfz.4/1- this halftrack is armed with 10 rocket pods and an MG 34 for self-defense. In reason it is similar to the Nebelwerfer but less accurate and shoots more rockets. Be aware though as the MG on this cannot suppress on the level of other MGs. 450 manpower, 20 fuel, 6 pop.]




Universal Upgrades:

Kraumlauf- This special attachment can now be used by any squads equipped with StG 44. The Kraumlauf bent barrel increases the accuracy of any soldiers in cover and buildings.












3. Doctrines








1) Assault Dogma-

Right Side: Siege Craft



1)  Death’s Toll: A single shot is fired by a 24 cm Kanone 3 that does extreme damage to any units in its huge radius and suppresses all infantry within that sector- 2 CP. Costs 100 Munitions. Recharge 3 min.

2)  Chain of Command: Your Artillerie-Panzerbeobachtungswagen III can now request heavy artillery strikes on the enemy positions. You can choose to drop High-Explosive rounds or Incendiary rounds- 2 CP, 100 munitions per shoot, 1 minute recharge (If you use one of the shells on any particular tank you must recharge both on that tank ONLY.)

3)  Waffentrager Heuschrecke: This self-propelled 105-mm gun is very useful when you want mobile artillery. And it comes with a small surprise for the Soviet tanks, it can depress low enough to fire its cannon at them directly. Beware however; it has weak armor and isn’t fast so shoot in numbers and with range. It also takes a small amount of time to transition between artillery and straight-fire modes-3 CP, Cost 560 manpower and take up 10 population. Limit 3 per commander.



Left Side: Infantry Support

1) Strike Support-A SdKfz 6 halftrack has been provided to our comrades on the Soviet Front. This extremely large halftrack can fit 15 people or 3 squads. Has light armor so it can survive a few PTRD shots but don’t get too cocky. Functions as a mobile reinforcement point like most other halftracks. 350 Manpower, 5 pop.

2) Charge for Fatherland: Gives a small burst of speed to any squad in its radius and also makes them insuppressible, but after which they will become sluggish at movement and have horrid accuracy- 2 CP, 100 munitions, 2 min recharge time.

3) Gebirgsjäger Strike Squad- Armed with 2 MG 42 LMGs and 1 Scoped G43, this 3 man squad is extremely skilled at suppressing and sniping enemies from long to medium ranges. Armed to the teeth with Anti-Infantry weaponry, these soldiers can also throw Incendiary grenades and camouflage in heavy cover.- 560 Manpower, 6 pop.







2) Breaching Dogma-


Right Side: Panzer Support


1) S-mine-This new fangled system can now be installed on our tanks to provide Anti-Infantry defense on our tanks. It is extremely effective, but must be reloaded externally so it can only be recharged out of combat- 1CP, 50 munitions per use, 1 min to recharge (only recharged out of combat)

2) Repair Support- Mechanics can be slow, and I’m sure any good commander knows that we must keep our tanks going faster, more often then we’d like them going slow. So we at HQ have thought of an ingenious idea. A halftrack filled with Mechanics is provided to our commanders on the front. These quick and mobile Mechanics can quickly repair any of our damaged tanks from the safety of an armored halftrack. Beware though the exchange for a bullet-proof halftrack is that the mechanics repair a little slower than normal (so they faster than the Pioneers but slower then Soviet or any other Advanced Repair unit) -2CP, 400 Manpower, 5 pop.

3) Hell-Tiger [ACE]-What else can a commander dream of. A single Tiger I armed with HE rounds, AT rounds, smoke dispensers is now at your disposal. Its weakness is that it can easily be immobilized by getting just a few shoots into the treads so try not to let it get shot up much. Artillery is also a bit of a problem as their shells can easily destroy the intricate treads. Can only be deployed once.-4CP, 13 pop, 1100 manpower.



Left Side: Blitzkrieg Tactics

1) Early Recon- Our early reconnaissance squads have done their job well. We can now see what sectors our enemies occupy, if they are secured or not and how many emplacements are present in their territories. It doesn’t show the Headquarters or Main Base (so the British can hide their emplacements behind their MAIN HEADQUARTERS TRUCK, not the other trucks, which are shown on the map) buildings or units in any sector. However whenever they build a new emplacement we will know about it.(Passive Ability)-2 CP

2) Unleash the Reserves: Gives any squads in its large radius automatic reinforcement to maximum capacity and makes them fire faster, with renewed vigor, unfortunately the use of our reserves makes getting reinforcements at the headquarters or forward HQ impossible for 2 min.-2 CP, 200 munitions, 5 min. recharge.

3) Coordinated Strike: All the troops on the field of battle are coordinated on a single strike, as they gain more power when they work together. Artillery will fire in a coordinated pattern against any enemy positions you may find (bunkers, emplacements, and buildings of any variety) and the air will be filled with Stukas striking down any Tanks you may encounter. However, be aware that your infantry will be sluggish, your tanks will fire less accurately, and your supply lines will be flowing slowly (less resources coming in) for a short while after the end of your command- 5 CP, 400 manpower and 100 munitions, with a 4 minute recharge.







3) Close-Quarters Dogma

Right Side: Urban Combat


1) Sapper School- All infantry now have the ability to place special explosives that can be used to destroy obstacles (tank-traps, detected mines, sandbags, and anything else in your way) or bridges and buildings that are causing problems.-1 CP

2) Grenade Barrage- equip all squads armed with Kar98ks, G-41s, G43s with Schießbecher rifle grenade shooters. Extremmly similar to the British rifle grenades except slightly more accurate and has less range-3 CP (no cost to activate the upgrade as it is passive)

3)Infantries' Bane- A Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz 33B is provided to the battlefield. This modified StuG III is an extremely powerful assault gun with a huge gun and MG that is designed to fight in close-quarters combat. However it’s AT-capabilities are lacking- 3 CP, 700 manpower, 10 pop.  Can only be deployed twice due to the vehicles rarity.


Left Side: Urban Support Tactics

1) Charge the Trench- For a short period of time makes all cover bonuses negative ( makes cover work in reverse while making negative cover even worse).- (2 CP, 100 Munitions)

2) Italian Artillery Batteries - Italian Alpine troops bring in their heavy Artillery. Large barrages will be dropped on multiple targets within the sector it is called into with pin-point accuracy. This powerful, long and self-targeting barrages has just one weakness, the rounds it uses are incendiary and not too good against Tanks especially heavier ones- 2 CP, 100 munitions per shot

3) The Tank Killer: A single Sturer Emil is provided to the front. This extremely powerful Tank Hunter has a huge 128 mm gun and can easily take out most tanks from range. However it cannot effectively engage Infantry, so keep it safe. Go get them Max.-3 CP, 700 manpower, 10 pop. Can only be deployed twice since, historically there were only two Sturer Emils- Max and Moritz.












4. Veterancy


Veterancy will be very special for these guys:




Now each Veterancy and achievement style provides different upgrades:

Here: Infantry



-1-

For Vet.1-Time Survivability: For staying 5 min. on the battlefield you can either provide this squad with better capturing ability, or increased health.


Vet.1-Capturing- For seizing 3 sectors this vet. can be upgraded with swifter movement or better accuracy.


Vet.1- Killing- For killing 10 units your vet. is provided the ability to add an officer to replace a member of the squad. This officer increases morale and thus increases speed, accuracy, and makes them harder to suppress. The other upgrade is the addition of an extra soldier for the squad (with no pop space used up) who adds an extra gun to the squad, and thus gives better firepower and makes them harder to kill.




-2-

Vet.2-Capturing-For seizing 5 sectors your vets can be provided with the ability to gain the ability of suppressing fire.


Vet.2-Killing- For killing 15 units this squad gains a skilled marksman (replaces a member of the squad) who makes the squad see better in to the fog of war and gives them the ability to pull off a single barrage of well aimed bullets that can kill half a squad and severely injure the survivors (a single recharge takes 5 min. and costs 100 munitions per shoot) or a special soldier armed with a MG 42 that makes the squad more durable and provides the ability to unleash the entire squads weapons to force any squad caught in their fire to retreat, but in disarray so they are confused and easier to kill as they run into each other (also a 5 min. recharge with a cost of 100 munitions)





-3-

Vet. 3-Killing-For killing 20 units your unit is allowed to get the ability to ignore suppression (making them literally insuppressible) for a short period of time or giving them the ability to provide increased morale to all troops next to them (which gives them better accuracy, harder to suppress, better speed and increase in capturing rate)










For tanks it is a bit easier but gives less advantages compared to the infantry. You can only get their vet. by killing units.

Here: Tanks


Vet.1- For getting 4 vehicle, or 2 tank, or 7 infantry kills this vet. gets the ability to deploy either smoke-screens or add extra armor to the vulnerable engine block (increasing the armor on the back of the tank and making engine damage less probable.

Vet.2- For getting 5 vehicle, 3 tanks or 16 infantry kills this vet is provided with the ability to use an Overdrive ability (for increased speed) or the ability to get a Tank Commander to provide recon with binoculars (thus giving the tank a higher range and sight into the fog of war, however a sniper can shoot the tank CO and kill him)

Vet.3- For getting 15 Vehicle, 8 Tank, or 23 infantry kills this crew have proven their skill to all. Allowed the chance to upgrade to a Veteran Gunning crew (which loads, faster shoots faster and is even more accurate) or the Veteran Driving crew (which increases speed, can repair the tank by themselves (must be stationary though), and allows better accuracy on the move).

------------------------------------------------

Thanks for reading guys. I’d love to hear any suggestions you’d have for me. Oh and thanks to Venoxxis for orginization advice, he is the best.

Last edited April 23, 2010 at 3:55 AM by neosdark

flammes of hell, too powerfull
charge the trench : really unfair unmilitary ... grenade-burn PE if you need
sturer emile is non-symbolic of ostheer ...

but it's generally coherent and the experience is well done

Viet i get where you are coming from about all three of these tactics. But i  can counter all of them. By the time you can get the Sturm Grenadiers- which must be built from the Basic Command Point building (so it can be from between tier 2-3) and are extremmly slow (think slightly faster then the camo Snipers)

Charge the Trench is indeed very realistic. The problem with using it is that while u are charging (remmeber you don't  have a speed increase) you are very vulnurable to suppression becuase in Urban Combat u will probably have MGs and mortars all over the place.

And the Sturer Emil.... well it would be just plain rude not to include such a well designed and poweful weapon. It is quite similar to the Elephant and served down in Stalingrad. Perhaps not the whole front but certainly more then the Jagdtiger and  SturmTiger so i believe it warrants inclusion.

Any other problems my friends?

i d put elefant more than sturer in that case (well if an opponent caps near your base that permits you to buy it as a last attemp maybe)

your trench charge is good, not only vs trench but covers so tree and so on, that's shame every cover !?

is the s-mine stealth or not ?

My friend im glad you have asked about the S-mine. Its not a stealth mine. If u have Tales of Valor and have played the Tiger Ace campaign, the S-mine is an unlockable upgrade that allows the Tiger to shoot out projectiles from specially designed tubes on the outside of the tank.

It was bassicly like a birdshot from a shotgun so multiple pellets shoot out in a 360 degree motion. It was however external from the tank so u can't reload it without getting out of the tank. Hence it may only be recharged out of combat. It is availible to all tanks as an AI support weapon. It does take a while to reload though (about a 1 min.)

Now the reason i don't want an Elephant is because, first of all it would conflict with having my Panther tank. I don't need that esspecially when its not a doctrine vehicle. The Sturer was experimental and i prefer having an experimental vehicle or a rare vehicle (comparativly of course) as the doctrine vehicles. Since the Sturer Emil was rarer (an experimental vehicle technicly) i believe it deserves its place. The only real difference in the two was the armor amounts since Elephants had more armor. In firepower i would judge them to be about the same.

And the reason i gave them Charge the Trench is because it works well with the Flamethrowers. But just becuase u can make the Cover not work doesn't mean they are any stronger then they were. It just means that you don't have the effects of cover to overcome.

It bassicly makes it a fair match (in squad on squad wise) but basic other things still apply . So if u charge covered Conscripts with the VolkSturm it would make the fight as if they were without cover, nothing else. Perhaps u would like me to change it so they don't get any cover bonuses during this time either? I believe that might balance it out. 

sorry for charge the trench, i overestimated the ability ... the way you wrote it fits me (a funny idea could be a vehicule pushing ground to slowly fill the trench, quite a dead) don't give it too early neither free

but twin flamme thrower shouldn't need that

elefant were more and had a little armour and i like their look. but it's the same style so that's not a matter

(please watch my try, only one read it)

+1 ( especially Veterancy)

Thanks Cephalos. I appreciate ur support.  ;D

Now Viet i get what u have against my triple Flamethrower. If u can suggest an idea that can take its place i would be happy to replace it. But make sure it fits in with the idea of Close-Quarters Combat as that is what that Dogma is based on. I do have an idea if u would like to hear it. It would be to add an extra CP point to its unlock and also take away the Defensive Pioneers ability to use twin flamethrowers.

As for Charge the Trench-I can make it only affect a small group of troops in the radius of the ability. I think that will make a lot more fair.

Hope to hear more comments guys.

flammer-thrower (especially twin) is a good answer to trench, maybe another unit with two heroes could enter a trench with some place left and do special knife work ?

well your will is good but trench aren't that nasty ? ... 

could you watch my ostheer try ? gathering ideas may be useful

Yop Neosdark,

nice to see your concept reworked.

I see that you removed the general problems/mistakes of your concept which makes is way better. Also, you did make it very clear by youself now, good work.

Your Jägerband and the sniper problems looks like becoming doable atm. The way these "snipers" use their weapons sounds orignial and powerfull at the same time. I see, you did persue the forum very well ;)

+2 ;) at your Panzer-Jäger assualt squad which perfectly fits the Ostfront. *thumps up*


The docs are still pretty good. Just as a mentioned before there are a few tanks which were actually used very seldom but thy may fit like you used them. There is maybe just 1 "beta-tank" too many. And the Kick ass flame bastards would really kick some ass :D ^^ thinking about balanace i dont know yet if this is doable.



Veterancy is kick ass now, maybe just the last tank level is a bit too hard to reach.




Keep up the good work.

-V-

Yeah the Flames of Hell might be rough, u have any good ideas for a substitute.

Im thinking of this new idea- Grenade Barrage- equip all squads armed with Kar98ks, G-41s, G43s with Schießbecher rifle grenade shooters. Extremmly similar to the British rifle grenades except slightly more accurate and has less range-3 CP (no cost to activate the upgrade as it is passive)

Its good for the earlier units but since most units later upgrade to StG-44s this upgrade becomes speciallized for the Defense Pioneers and Sturm-Grenadiers.

As for the "seldom" used tanks i know very well of which "tank" u are speaking of and im sure that if u can provide me with a more interesting alternative i would love to substitute it.

As for level 3 it is meant to be hard to reach because it confers such extreme bonuses.

Anyway my friend thank u for reviewing again.

Come on guys if u don't like it u can tell me it sucks but please don't just ignore it. I would really like to hear some suggestions and reviews on my ideas.

Seems like a pretty good concept overall, but one thing I think it's lacking is defensive options. The existing axis factions support very aggressive playstyles, so it would be fresh and unique if there was a doctrine, or at least a branch for a doctrine that supported more of a defensive oriented playstyle.

I wouldn't suggest the trench, that is getting rather overdone at this point, but one idea I had was a kind of universal concrete fortification that, by default, has no emplacements but can be garrisoned. Probably would look something like this, but without the flak emplacement.

http://www.miniatures.de/germany/esci-8612-flak-vierling-38.jpg

It could be further enhanced by having a different upgrade option depending on which doctrine you chose, like a possible flakvierling, MG, or mortar emplacement.

There should also be a unit that can construct the basic defenses of sandbags, tank traps, and barbed wire.

I think overall the problem with this concept is that it is too focused on aggression, which is already overdone by the other German factions, and is not as representative as it could be of the stage of the war where Germany was on the defensive.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one last suggestion. I like the idea of replacing the weapons over time, but I think the Volkssturm should stop at getting the VG 1-5, STG 44's might be a little OP. Instead, I came up with this possible Research.

Emergency Reserves: Volkstturm squads now have a capacity of 5 men, and gain the ability to fire a panzerfaust free(subject to a longer cooldown) or at a very low (less than 30) munitions cost.

This would do several things. Firstly, it would keep the unit relevant even in the late game when they would ordinarily be obsolete, and secondly, it represents the massive amounts of Panzerfausts they had squirreled away. In my research, there seems to be evidence of vast stockpiles of panzerfausts and many photo references show they carrying panzerfausts, as well as a firearm.

The cost of the research would be determined through balance of course. Really without actually having these things in the game, putting costs to things is just making wild guesses, at best.

Last edited April 28, 2010 at 1:09 AM by Olorin

Well my friend thank u for ur comment. I understand were u are coming from. But u must remmeber that the Germans weren't calmly planning a Defensive op. They were retreating on a large scale, while still getting new weapons and tools that they could use.

So when i provide Defensive Ops i'm bassicly creating a swift Rushed Defense nothing like a Big Defense similar to the British Turtle tactics.

However i do see ur point on the trench and im thinking of just letting all troops build 3 variants of mines:

Incindiery Mines (for Anti Infantry purposes),

Teller Mines (AT mines obviously), and

the Devils Garden Minefield (a large minefield filled with mines that aren't extremmly effective against either tanks or infantry but any Infantry caught in them will be automatticly suppressed and stunned.)

It would reflect the Germans mine fields and would replace the trenches.

As for the changing weapons system u are indeed right and the StG is to much for Volkssturm.They shouldn't get any upgrades past the VG 1-5.  Perhaps a seperate upgrade for the VMG-27 but thats the only thing they should get

I also like your upgrade for my Volkssturm but i would make the new member armed with a Panzerfaust 150 so it can be used 10 times before ud have to buy it again. It would make the Volkssturm more micro neccesary. But i would also make the Panzerfaust weaker (for balance)

Now for that model u should me is simply a trench surrounded and made out of concrete. That is why there are multiple paths behind it. Sorry to burst ur bubble there.

Now the Defense Pioneers have the ability to deploy Sandbags, Wire, and Tank Traps so u just overlooked it.

If u are willing to create a more defensive oriented then i would love to judge it but don't expect to find mine reflecting anything like that.

Initially, the Fuhrer forbade the construction of defensive fortifications, as he thought it would be no different from admitting defeat, but after bringing steadily pushed back that changed. I don't think the ability to construct some more solid fortification aside from sand bags is really that unreasonable.

While I definitely agree that should not be the focus of the Ostheer, I think that a doctrine or doctrine branch giving you some actual fortifications would be good, and reflect the shift from offensive to defensive. Just having the ability to build a mortar bunker or something like that doesn't make them equitable to the British. I mean the British have an emplacement for EVERYTHING. Just having a few defensive options that are more than just a pile of rubble strewn across a road as a distraction wouldn't exactly make them the turtle kings.

As for the mines, with all due respect, I don't really think that it's all that great of an idea. In practice, I find that mines aren't really used that much, and they're more of an offensive weapon really. When I think of defenses, I think of something that enhances the survivability of your troops, which mines do not do.

I feel that trenches, as they are in the game now, are something that should remain to the British alone, but that's just my opinion there.

It is true, that the picture I posted is essentially a dugout reinforced with concrete, but it's not equitable to the British trench. The slit trench is purely and earthworks construction, and the fortification I outlined only allows troops to be garrisoned before it is upgraded.

As for the Volkssturm idea, I don't think it's really feasible to have a Panzerfaust that can only be used ten times then discarded, as in I literally don't think that's possible on the game's engine. Though that does give me an idea, perhaps a later tier upgrade could expand the Volkssturm squad by 1, give the squad the VG 1-5 and give the additional man a Panzershreck. This of course would be balanced by a degree of inaccuracy. It's just an alternative.

I wouldn't think of speaking for the developers, but I am getting the impression that one of the general sentiments regarding the overall feel of the Osterheer is that they should reflect the developments of the Eastern war from the initial blitzkrieg to the eventual defeat at Berlin. The Soviets themselves are designed with this in mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think that your ideas are pretty solid, but that they do not reflect this basic philosophy of following the flow of the war.

As such, I think a defensive oriented doctrine, as well as having some non doctrinal defensive options that are introduced perhaps in T3.

I do hope that all of these suggestions do prove to be useful to the developers, and that there is an internal dialogue going on. As it stands now, without a public declaration of a general theme or concept for the faction, that things are becoming kind of redundant and further speculation can only be so helpful without knowing whether it is even going to fit in the generally accepted philosophy of the faction.

Last edited April 28, 2010 at 4:17 AM by Olorin

Now Olorin please read the way i build up buildings, as Defense Pioneers are scientificly Tier 2-4. U make it seem like i don't have any units for defense. I think the aptly named Defensive Pioneers do almost everything you outlined. They make bunkers, Tank-traps, mines, sandbags, wire, and can also use their G-41 to fight people in buildings with the G-launcher. Perfect engies for a defensive operation and urban combat.

The reason i dislike your Concrete Dugout is becuase it is in fact a TRENCH WITH A CONCRETE LINING. It would be like making an upgrade for a trench or something of the variety. Dugout=Trench, in almost all military terms my friend.

Now as for le mines. Lets make two things clear: 1)Mines in their entirety are designed to be a defensive buffer, suppressing and killing soldiers around the large explosion.

2)If you don't use them then you obviously aren't a defensive player. Give them a good old-fashioned college try, and then perhaps you will realize that its has an extreme defensive purpose. And while ur at it get a few snipers, MGs and mortars in the area and watch the fireworks.

The Volkssturm: I came up with a good idea for them. When I activate the Wunderwaffen upgrade i will change it so the soldiers equipped with VG 1-5 have 1 out of 2 VG 1-5 become VMG-28. It would stop the upgrade to StG but give them something to suppress with so they would have relevance later in the game. If u want i can throw in the Panzerfaust for 15 munitions but that makes them too versatile in my opinion. 

Panzerschreck would be too unfair for such a cheap squad as it would also not have the proper gear to operate one without killing or hurting themselves.

Anyway enough of my ranting. Any other suggestions my friend??