Raider 217's Ostheer Concept

First off a lot of the ideas within this concept have been influenced by other peoples concepts and ideas. Mainly Venoxxis’s Tier system and the veterency system is based off of Lord Rommel’s, with very slight changes this is because these systems worked and in my opinion reflected the Ostheer well. 

-No securing of territory. The Ostheer cannot secure territory unless you are using the Fortress deployment doctrine this is because the rapid advances of the German army through Russia did not leave time to secure these valuable points.
-Tanks and vehicles start off with poor mobility due to the harshness of Russian snow and mud. This can be overcome with the Ostketten upgrade. (Brings them up to normal speed)

HQ
(Unlocks: Infantry Command, Engineers Hall)

-Kubelwagen
Starting unit
Fast moving, fast capping unit, can be upgraded with MG42 for 50 munitions

-Sdkfz.9
Builder Unit
Builds: Infantry Command, Panzer Support Command, Infantry Support Command and Panzer High Command
Basic repair unit (can be upgraded with advanced repair)
Once the Engineers hall is constructed you may deploy Goliaths (125 Munitions)

Infantry Command (Tier 1)
(Unlocks: Panzer Support Command, Infantry Support Command)

-Volksturm
Weaker starting infantry
(6 men with 6xKar98)
Can build sandbags, barbed wire
Can be upgraded with VG-1-5’s for 50 munitions (could either be VG-1-5’s or MP40)
Gain grenades at Vet 2
Can use Panzerfaust (35 munitions)

-Mg 34 team
(3 men, 1xMg 34, 2x Kar98)
Lower fire rate than an MG42 but deploys faster and less expensive

-Sharpshooter
(1 man, 1xMP44 Scoped)
Lower sight range and accuracy than Wehr or US sniper but higher fire rate
Can Camouflage
Gains binoculars at Vet 2 (Similar ability to Soviet Command squad’s Binoculars)

-7.5cm Le.IG 18
(4 men, 2xLuger pistol, 1x Infantriegeschutz 18 mortar)
*Can fire indirectly like a mortar
Must be locked into mortar role
Free fires like normal mortar (Low rate of fire thus relies more on barrage)
Barrage recharges quickly whilst in this mode (More accurate and damaging than normal mortar barrage’s making up for its poor free firing)
*Can fire directly like anti-tank gun
Must be locked into anti-tank role
Only effective against light armour but reloads quickly
Does not free fire like a mortar (Barrage does not recharge)

Infantry Support Command (Tier 2)
(Unlocks: Panzer High Command)

-Sturm Grenadiers
Stronger experienced soldiers
(4 men, 4x Kar98)
Can be upgraded with G43’s, Panzershreck for 75 munitions or double Flamethrower’s (Doctrine only) for 100 munitions
Gain Incendiary grenades at Vet 2
Can build sandbags

-3.7cm Pak 36
(4 men, 2xKar98, 1xPak36)
Anti armour support that can hold back early enemy armour and may Camoflauge.
Normal Ammunition can be Upgraded to Tungsten Cored AP rounds (Improved anti armour efforts upgrade)
*Has the ability to use Stielgranate 41 ammunition which greatly improves armour penetration at close to medium range but is only slightly effective at longer ranges.
Has better mobility and accuracy but weaker damage than other factions anti tanks guns

-Sdkfz 251/8-I
Medical halftrack
Creates healing aura for 40 munitions
Can lock down into field hospital and treat wounded infantry (may use healing aura)
Similar to Commonwealth Casualty clearing tent when set up but once deployed may not be packed up again (No longer costs pop cap when deployed)
*Requires upgrade to become recruitable

Panzer Support Command (Tier 2)
(Unlocks: Panzer High Command)

-Sdkfz 10
Primary mode of transport for infantry, no weaponry but infantry may fire out of vehicle
Can reinforce nearby infantry
Can hold 12 men or 3 squads (given the space of having no weaponry)
At the expense of mobility it can be upgraded with:
*2cm Flak 38 for Anti infantry, anti vehicle and anti air support (Could be single barrel, double barrel or four barreled variant)

-Sdkfz 231/232
Fast moving armored car
Can overdrive engine giving burst of speed
Can be upgraded to secure territory through Fortress Deployment for 100 munitions

-Sdkfz 4
Mobile rocket artillery
Fires a salvo of rockets with similar power to Nebelwerfer but is highly inaccurate
*Requires upgrade to become recruitable. This is because no munitions upgrade is required to give the vehicle its rockets it is built with them and so that they are not built to early in the game.

Panzer High Command (Tier 3)

-Waffen Grenadier Troopers
(4 men, 4xKar98)
Veteren infantry concentrating on anti infantry combat
Can throw Hafthohlladung anti tank grenade but is short range requiring the squad to be very close to the target in order to attach the grenade (Vet 2)
Can be upgraded with 4xMP44 (150 munitions)

-Panzer III Ausf. E/F
Less armour and less effective against armour than Panzer IV
(Starts with 3.7cm main gun, effective vs light armour and infantry)
Once upgraded with new main gun armour increases
*Infantry Support Command
Allows upgrade of Panzer III to use short barreled 75mm cannon using HE shells
Effective vs. infantry and light armor (Ausf. N)
*Panzer Support Command
Allows upgrade of Panzer III to use long barreled 50 mm cannon using AP shells
Effective vs. light, medium armor (Ausf. J^1)

*Infantry Support Command
-Allows production of Stug III Ausf. E (Short barreled 75 mm cannon)
Powerful infantry support tank
Can be upgraded to Stug III Ausf. G (Long barreled 75 mm cannon) increasing its effectiveness against armour at the expense of its effectiveness against infantry
Short Barrel: The Stug III’s main gun can fire a smoke canister for protection
Long Barrel: The Stug III may use Focused Firing (Same as PE, AT halftrack)

*Panzer Support Command
-Allows Production of Marder II
Can lock down after upgrade (same as Marder III)
Has less armour than Marder III but can target vehicle tracks and immobilize

*(Infantry Support Command, Panzer Support Command and “Heavy armour support” upgrade required to use Panthers and Tiger)
-Panther Ausf. A
Late game anti armour asset
Has no hull MG lowering effectiveness against infantry

Engineers Hall
Contains all the necessary weapons and global upgrades of the Ostheer
-Panzer Shurtzen: Equips certain tanks with armored skirts
-Ostketten: Upgrades the tracks and wheels of tanks and vehicles increasing their maneuverability whilst decreasing the vulnerability of the tracks on tanks
-Front line medical support: Unlocks Sdkfz 251/8-I
-Rocket artillery support: Unlocks Sdkfz 4
-Heavy armour support: Unlocks Panther, Tiger (Mobilisation Deployment Doctrine)
-Higher lifting capacity: Gives Sdkfz. 9 Advanced repair and mobile minesweeper
-Increased Anti-armour efforts: Allows Stug III’s to be upgraded with long barreled 75 mm cannons increasing anti armour capabilities, changes all Marder II’s from captured Soviet 7.62 mm AT guns to the new 7.5 cm Pak 40 increasing armour penetration and range. Also allows Marder II to lock down (Same as Marder III) and supplies all Pak 36's with Tungsten Cored AP rounds effective against the side and rear armour of most Soviet tanks
-Veteran support teams: MG34 team, 7.5cm Le.IG 18 and Pak 36 all gain increased squad sizes giving them higher chance of surviving harsh combat situations

Doctrines
My Doctrines are referred to as Deployments and attempt to represent different phases/ stages during the Eastern front. The units and abilities in the Doctrines do not reflect this time line, simply how they are played and their effect on your play style.

Mobilisation Deployment
Concentrates on early game advancement and armoured units supported by infantry to roll over enemy territory. If resistance is fierce use the JU-87 bombing run to soften up their defenses then push on.

Rapid Expansion
(1 CP) Forced Labor: Put the millions of prisoners taken during Barbarossa to work, Increases building construction times allowing you to deploy your forces faster, (NOT unit production times) as well as decreasing research times.

(2 CP) Combined assault: All infantry become insuppressible and sprint whilst vehicles and tanks shoot at a faster rate (150 munitions)

(5 CP) Beast Production: Allows production of Tiger I at Panzer High Command (These are early war Tigers however so they are unreliable, move slowly, long production times and the crews are new to the Tiger having an effect on their accuracy. Veteran Tigers though, are a force to be reckoned with, only two at a time)

Overwhelming Force
(2 CP) Armor Fist: When grouped near tanks you infantry gain large amounts of inspiration from them. They recieve less damage, are more accurate and deal more damage

(3 CP) Reign of Fire: Allows Panzer III to be upgraded to FlammPanzer III Ausf.M, Panzer II to Panzer II Flamm, unlocks flamethrower upgrades for Sturm grenadiers and gives Waffen Grenadier Troopers the Einstossflammenwerfer 46 ability. (For 50 munitions one of the Troopers uses the disposable flamethrower producing a short range burst of fire effective vs. infantry and infantry in buildings)

(3 CP) Phoenix: JU-87 Stuka drops a salvo of high explosive bombs and then incendiary bomblets on selected target. Highly effective vs. buildings and infantry (150 munitions)


Siege Deployment
Focuses on artillery and artillery enhancements along with powerful call in units to destroy enemy resistance whilst also giving upgrades to some non artillery units to assist in the push

Artillery Logistics
(2 CP) Coordinated Bombardment: Deploys Field Artillery Truck which can be set up to give bonuses to nearby artillery units (recharge rate and fire rate. May also reinforce nearby infantry)

(3CP) Heavier Rounds: For a short period of time Artillery units fire high range, high damage rounds and some Tanks may fire Panzergranate shells onto their targets (160 munitions)

(3 CP) Grumbler: Deploys a Sturmpanzer IV Brummbar to smash through enemy strong points

Demolition
(2 CP) Scherenfernrohr: Equips artillery units as well as some support units, vehicles and tanks with Scherenfernrohr sighting equipment increasing sight range and accuracy

(2 CP) Howitzer Support: 10.5cm leFH 18/40 light field howitzers are now buildable to you Sdkfz.9 (Build at very slow rate)

(4 CP) Father of all guns: The massive Schwerer Gustav rail gun fires its 80cm cannon upon a selected region of the map devastating it. This is not 100% accurate so stay aware of where allied units are in relation to where it is firing. (200 munitions, long reload)


Fortress Deployment
Uses superior long and short range defensive measures, to ensure the territory you have taken remains yours. The self propelled Wespe can weaken enemy positions whilst our heavy tank destroyers (Nashorn or Ferdinand) eliminate any enemy armour attempting to make a push for our lines

Urban Control and Combat
(2 CP) To the Front!: When activated movement speed and capture rate of all units increases allowing for quick seizure of points in order to move in to enemy territory and establish defences faster (100 munitions)

(3 CP) Stonewall: Units in cover and buildings gain extra bonuses to survivability, sight range and suppression. Also gives the Sdkfz 231 radio equiptment to secure territory and gain extra resources from points. Only three may be upgraded to use this ability however as they produce more resources than an observation point or PE scout car

(2 CP) Killer Wasp: Deploys an Sdkfz 124 “Wespe” to the map to provide heavy artillery support and weaken enemy defences.
May lock down for greater range but still has shorter range and lower damage than Hummel artillery piece and leFH 18/40. (At Vet 2 instead of a gunner or spotter the Wespe is given additional rounds to prolong its barrages and increase their effectiveness)

Concrete and Steel Defence
(1 CP) Hasty Defence: You Sturm Pioneer support has arrived to aid in your defence use them to hold the Red army away from Berlin (Stronger than Wehr Pioneer, gain Satchel charges at Vet 2)
-Can build
Sandbags, Barbed wire, Dragon teeth
Mines (25 munitions)
Bunker (same as Wehr but has less health and may only be upgraded with MG42 or Repair station).

(3 CP) Hardened Defence: Allows your Sturm pioneers to construct.
-AA Emplacement (Dual Cannon 3.7 cm Flak 43 for anti vehicle and anti air support)
-AT Emplacement (7.5 cm Pak 40 for heavy anti tank support)

(4 CP) Behemoth: Calls in a Sdkfz 184 Ferdinand or Nashorn (Reward unit) to the field as heavy anti tank support (limit of one at a time).

Reward Units
-Panzer II Ausf. F
Slower than Sdkfz 231, smaller sight range, same armament but more armor
Can be upgraded with flamethrowers (Doctrine)
*Replaces Sdkfz 231 armored car

-Jagdpanzer IV
Shorter sight range than Marder II, lower speed and slower fire rate but more armour
Can camouflage
Increased Anti-armour efforts: Upgrades Jagdpanzer’s 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48 to a 7.5 cm Pak 42 L/70 increasing armour penetration and range
*Replaces Marder 2

-Nashorn
Armed with similar 88mm cannon as Ferdinand, more maneuverable, less armour, larger sight range
Has ability to lock down
*Replaces Sdkfz 184 Ferdinand as the call in unit for “Behemoth”

Foreign Reward Units
All foreign reward units are more expensive to build and take slightly longer to produce due to how effective they are as well as their transportation and deployment costs.

-Foreign Axis Infantry (Romanian)
(6 men, 6xVZ.24)
Early game soldiers, concentrating on close combat and light anti armour combat
Can be upgraded with Orita M1941’s for 50 munitions
Can use Panzerfaust (35 munitions)
Gain Sticky bombs at Vet 2
Cannot gain flamethrowers and may only build roadblocks (very slowly)
*Replace Volksturm

-Foreign Axis Infantry (Hungarian)
(4 men, 4x43M rifles)
Tough mid game infantry
Have two weapon slots
Can be upgraded with
*MG30’s (Gain 2. Same as MG42 for Grenadiers, or FG42 for Fallschirmjager)
*Solothurm 36M 20mm anti tank rifle (Gain 1. For light anti tank support)
Gain AT grenades at Vet 2
Do not gain flamethrowers through doctrine
Cannot place barbed wire or sandbags
*Replace Sturm Grenadiers

-Foreign Axis Infantry (Italian)
(3 men, 1xBreda M37, 2xCarcano M1891’s)
Heavy MG team with slower rate of fire, deployment speed and production speed than MG34 but higher penetration, reload time and range
*Replace MG34 team

- Foreign Axis Infantry (Finnish Winter Troops)
(5 men, 5xMosin Nagant)
Reasonable mid game infantry, concentrating on stealth and ambush tactics rather than frontal engagements
Have less health than Waffen Troopers and are suppressed easily
Built with Ambush ability
At Vet 2 for 100 munitions they may be given one upgrade
*Suomi KP/-31’s (SMG’s)
*Two Lahti L-39 (Anti-tank Rifles, lowers squads movement speed however)
*Two LS/26 (LMG’s, gain Suppressive Fire ability)
Gain Panssarimiina m/39 anti tank device’s instead of Flamethrower through doctrine (Much weaker than Teller mine)
Cannot place barbed wire or sandbags
*Replaces Waffen Grenadier Troopers

-Veterancy is allocated through four buttons inside the Engineers Hall. These change the cost (Only small rises in cost, because depending on the amount of units you produce it will cost more than any other factions veterency in the long run), production time and the experience your troops receive. You can freely change between these depending upon your situation.
*Each level of Veterancy is unlocked after building a tier building (Tier 1 gives Vet 1)
Vet 0: Quick production, cheap units with no experience
Vet 1: Slightly slower production and more expensive than vet one but more experience (Inf: Accuracy, Tanks: Higher speed, Vehicles: Less damage received, Support Units: Accuracy)
Vet 2: Even slower production and higher prices but with large combat experience (Inf: Ability / Upgrade, Tanks: MG Gunner or Spotter, Vehicles: Damage, Support Units: Reload times or Fire rate)
Vet 3: Slowest production times and highest prices but veteran experience for your units (Inf: Maximum health, Tanks: Accuracy, Vehicles: Maximum health, Support Units: Deploy times or Ability recharge)

Call in units: Call in units are affected by this system resulting in your units being more expensive depending on veterancy (this does not affect abilities, upgrades or the recharge rate of call in units as people would just switch between the pools to overcome this)

Secondary HQ’s. “Command posts” Can reinforce your infantry and support unit squads but cannot build new squads. Has similar ability to Commonwealths “Retreat to Captain” allowing you to allocate one of these buildings as the assembly point for retreating units.

Depending on your choice of doctrine your Command posts also gain a certain enhancement (only effects secondary HQ’s)

- Mobilisation Deployment (Munitions Depot)
Recharges nearby units abilities at a higher rate (Same as PE but NO healing)

- Siege Deployment (Communications Relay)
Decreases the amount of time needed for nearby units to gain upgrades and slightly increases repair rate of buildings and vehicles close to the building

- Fortress Deployment (Conscription Post)
Greatly increased reinforcement rate at Command posts

Last edited April 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM by Raider217

This concept......... awesome!

There are some nice ideas but Ill just say what I didnt like.

Raider217 wrote:
-Volksturm
Weaker starting infantry
(6 men with 6xKar98)
Can build sandbags, barbed wire
Can be upgraded with VG-1-5’s for 50 munitions (could either be VG-1-5’s or MP40)
Gain grenades at Vet 2
Can use Panzerfaust (35 munitions)

Allmost the same as Wehrmacht but has 6 men. So will this infantry cost 280*6/5=340 MP? Will they be 6pop?

How about adding some stats to youre concept
or comparing youre units to egzisting ones.

Quote
-Sharpshooter
(1 man, 1xMP44 Scoped)
Lower sight range and accuracy than Wehr or US sniper but higher fire rate
Can Camouflage
Gains binoculars at Vet 2 (Similar ability to Soviet Command squad’s Binoculars)

MP-44 was not a sniper rifle (even when scoped).

Quote
-Sturm Grenadiers
Stronger experienced soldiers
(4 men, 4x Kar98)
Can be upgraded with G43’s, Panzershreck for 75 munitions or double Flamethrower’s (Doctrine only) for 100 munitions
Gain Incendiary grenades at Vet 2
Can build sandbags

They shouldnt have G43 (long range rifle) or build defences if their "Sturm". Equip them with MP-40 or change the name.

Quote
-Waffen Grenadier Troopers
(4 men, 4xKar98)
Veteren infantry concentrating on anti infantry combat
Can throw Hafthohlladung anti tank grenade but is short range requiring the squad to be very close to the target in order to attach the grenade (Vet 2)
Can be upgraded with 4xMP44 (75 munitions)

You probably want a unit tougher than normal grens/PE grens. But upgrading stormtroopers with 4xMP44 costs 150ammo...  ::)

Quote
-Panzer III Ausf. E/F
Slower, less armour and less effective against armour than Panzer IV
Allows upgrade of Panzer III to use long barreled 50 mm cannon using AP shells

Why is it slower than PzIV if it has less armour, weaker gun and same engine?

Quote
Stug III Ausf. E (Short barreled 75 mm cannon)

Who would build and upgrade PzIII if you can have a Stug III without paing ammo?

Quote
Short Barrel: The Stug III’s main gun can fire a smoke canister for protection

Why do long barreled stug looses its smoke ability?

Quote
Long Barrel: The Stug III may use Focused Firing (Same as PE, AT halftrack)

Why does stugIII have an ability that stugIV hasnt?
... and Focused Firing ability was possible with low caliber guns (3,7cm, 2pounder) becouse you could aim them like a machine gun on a tripod.
7,5cm guns were too big to do that.

Quote
-Panther Ausf. A

...another Panther.
There are many tanks that are too similar (all a bit weaker) to PE.
PzIII with a 37mm gun and a 50mm gun upgrade is like a slower Hotchkiss.
PzIIIN(75mm upgrade) will be another (weaker but still similar) PE PzIV. MarderII is a weaker MarderIII.

Quote
Siege Deployment

I dont like this doctrine becouse ist just guns, guns, guns and nothing else. Other doctrines allready have bombard abilities (Ju-87, Wespe) and thats enough.

Paciat, you always criticized everyone and think your idea is that of god's. sure, the Mp-44 with scope isn't a sniper rifle, and sure, the other doctrines have a bombardment ability, but some of your arguments are flawed.

    Any vehicle mounted weapon could be used used to focus fire their weapons because the recoil is dampened by the weight if the vehicles.
    Why can't the Strum Grenadiers have G-43s just because of their name? that is a lousy reason as to why they shouldn't have a name.
    your reason as to why the PZ111 and PzIV shouldn't be ingame just due to the fact they are similar to PE units is not justified. The Hotckiss is a reward unit, and the PE PzIV has two upgrades, a MG gunner and armored skirts.

If you want to complain about someone reasons, come up with valid arguments. And the idea for all I care is well thought out and should be considered a possibility.

@Paciat

1.
The Sharpshooter was given an MP44 scoped because if I gave it a G43 it would have the same weapon as the Wehr sniper and be to similar

2.
The Sturm grens arent given MP40 etc because mid-late WW2 they were more on the defensive if you want assault capabilities you get the double flamethrowers with the Mobilisation Deployment which represents the early stage of the conflict 

3.
You are correct about the Waffen Grens their MP44 should be more expensive as well as the speed on the Panzer III it was the same as a Panzer IV and I will change that thanks for pointing that out

4.
The Stug III is more of an infantry support weapon than the Panzer III which itself is more capable of shooting on the move and assault. Its the same as to why youd get a Panzer IV over a Stug IV playing Wehr.

5.
The Smoke ability on the Stug III is lost because once it is upgraded to the long barrel it is closer to a tank hunter than a infantry support tank and to help it still be able to combat infantry and be more effective against tanks it has Focus Fire instead

6.
The Panther is in there because it is the only thing capable of standing up to a IS-2 their is also a gap inbetween getting the Panther and the Panzer III, Stug III and Marder II which is how I wanted it to work this gives other Factions time to catch up and build better tanks than the Ostheer before they get the Panther which is also how it actually happened with the appearance of T-34's making Germany have to build the Panther and Tiger to combat them

Paciat wrote:
[...]

Quote
-Sharpshooter
(1 man, 1xMP44 Scoped)
Lower sight range and accuracy than Wehr or US sniper but higher fire rate
Can Camouflage
Gains binoculars at Vet 2 (Similar ability to Soviet Command squad’s Binoculars)

MP-44 was not a sniper rifle (even when scoped).
[...]

Why shouldnt StG 44 be a sniper rifle?
I cant see any reason for that.
But when u insist on this "problem" i would be interested in a clear definition for a sniper rifle ???

Lord wrote:
Why shouldnt StG 44 be a sniper rifle?
I cant see any reason for that.
But when u insist on this "problem" i would be interested in a clear definition for a sniper rifle ???

Sniper rifle by its definition should be a long range precise rifle capable of shooting on a target of human size with point precision above 300m, preferably at 500m or more depending on ammunition/weapons system used.

It is clear that on such distances you will need optics but not every rifle with optics would be called a "sniper-rifle" exactly. More like "precision rifle" if speaking about StG44. But this is just playing with words, I say ask a real sniper which rifle he would prefer to use Kar98 scoped or StG44 scoped? I bet you know the answer.

There are several things why I wouldn't call a StG44 a sniper rifle when compared to Kar98:
- it has shorter barrell than Kar98
- it uses different ammunition, shorter 7.92x33mm type thus lower effective range, lower ballistic performance
- has automatic reload gas-operated mechanism... automatic was not prefered by snipers that is why elite snipers prefered Kar98 even before G43 (which was very good design IMO)

During WW2 even "sniper rifles" were just normal service rifles with scope, only years after there were developed specialized "sniper rifles" used exactly for sniping.

Well. I cant see any reason against the StG 44. In single shot mode the StG 44 had a effective range of 600m - 850m and a bullet of the StG 44 can also kill like the Kar98 bullets ;)

And for me a StG 44 hadnt to be a counter sniper.
When he can kill infantry that would be enough for me ^^

So i like the StG 44 sniper ( i used this unit at my concept, too ;) ).

wordsmith wrote:

Lord wrote:
Why shouldnt StG 44 be a sniper rifle?
I cant see any reason for that.
But when u insist on this "problem" i would be interested in a clear definition for a sniper rifle ???

Sniper rifle by its definition should be a long range precise rifle capable of shooting on a target of human size with point precision above 300m, preferably at 500m or more depending on ammunition/weapons system used.

It is clear that on such distances you will need optics but not every rifle with optics would be called a "sniper-rifle" exactly. More like "precision rifle" if speaking about StG44. But this is just playing with words, I say ask a real sniper which rifle he would prefer to use Kar98 scoped or StG44 scoped? I bet you know the answer.

There are several things why I wouldn't call a StG44 a sniper rifle when compared to Kar98:
- it has shorter barrell than Kar98
- it uses different ammunition, shorter 7.92x33mm type thus lower effective range, lower ballistic performance
- has automatic reload gas-operated mechanism... automatic was not prefered by snipers that is why elite snipers prefered Kar98 even before G43 (which was very good design IMO)

During WW2 even "sniper rifles" were just normal service rifles with scope, only years after there were developed specialized "sniper rifles" used exactly for sniping.

xD this is right what i wanted to write right now but you were faster wordsmith ;)
Its playing with words, thats it.

After all the other advantages the StG brought on the battlefield, it was well known for their power for long range combat. Thats why acting like a sniper was quite a good idea with that weapon in the right idea.  lets take a look ..




In fact it does sound like a orinial idea. good work here, but this guy should be useable for usual combat after all as well.
(doesnt matter who was the first one having this idea in his concept, but i guess rommel)

And by the way, i do like the concept. There are several things which are in my concept as well, but that is okay! Its a good one seeing you liking my basic ideas.

Steamroller Doctrine Power !  ;)

---

-> Ah Rommel was fast as well :p

Last edited April 5, 2010 at 1:20 PM by Venoxxis

Lord wrote:
Well. I cant see any reason against the StG 44. In single shot mode the StG 44 had a effective range of 600m - 850m and a bullet of the StG 44 can also kill like the Kar98 bullets ;)

That is true, with just a small detail: the precision of such shot on 850m from StG44 would be for sure lower than from Kar98. But yes in principle you can say that every rifle capable of killing someone on long distance is actually a sniper rifle :)

Panzer4life wrote:
Paciat, you always criticized everyone and think your idea is that of god's. sure, the Mp-44 with scope isn't a sniper rifle, and sure, the other doctrines have a bombardment ability, but some of your arguments are flawed.

If you want to complain about someone reasons, come up with valid arguments. And the idea for all I care is well thought out and should be considered a possibility.

I dont complain, I criticize. Critisize my concept if you like to and than Ill try to defend it or change it. Thats how it works.

As for giving Sturmgewehrs to Sinpers and sniper rifles without optics to Sturm grens.
You really dont see whats wrong with that?
For me its like changing german and soviet uniforms.

About Focused Firing ability. I heared that British tank gunners could stabilize a 2 pounder (when driving). His knees were shock absorbers on rough terrain when he was holding the gun.
75mm guns were too big to do that. Thats why IMO Focused Firing should be for small guns only. Big guns can have a HE shells ability.

[quote author=Raider217 link=topic=3244.msg31275#msg31275 date=1270411446]
First off a lot of the ideas within this concept have been influenced by other peoples concepts and ideas.

-Mg 34 team
(3 men, 1xMg 34, 2x Kar98)
Lower fire rate than an MG42 but deploys faster and less expensive

If you mean Mobile MG Team, I don't mind if you put that there.

The MG34 idea has been thrown around alot its in alot of concepts and im pretty sure its even on the Unit suggestion Page so I dont know if anyones able to claim that it was their idea first

The Kubelwagen can get the MG42 which effectively makes it the same as a US jeep except it can cap points which is enough for the HQ and im not going to go into costs incase people start saying its not enough or too much

If your talking about the 7.5 Leig 18 its a mortar not an anti tank gun it can fire like an anti tank gun but doesnt fire anti tank rounds just it's normal mortar rounds

The Pak 36 is weak yes its simply to hold off early armour. Its ablity does allow it to efficiently pierce the armour of a T-34 at close-medium range but not an IS-2's which hopefully by the time it arrives you've already built a Marder II etc.

The Sdkfz 231-232 is actually closer to the Puma apart from having an antenna effectively making it a cross between a Puma and PE Scout car

That layout for the Panzer III originates from Venoxxis so he get's credit for that

Raider217 wrote:
The Pak 36 is weak yes its simply to hold off early armour. Its ablity does allow it to efficiently pierce the armour of a T-34 at close-medium range but not an IS-2's which hopefully by the time it arrives you've already built a Marder II etc.

One of the few units i've got some doubts about a usage in your concept. I mean this pak is extremly weak.. a compareable weapon i mean pretty much the same is on the AT halftrack and its doing only 30 damage. Thats nothing at all. Even with a AP shell ability which would duplicate the penetration and maybe give some more damage this wouldnt be that usefull still.

Solutions are giving it a tread-breaking ability or some other kind of seriously damaging single shot.

But i would suggest some kind of AT-Guy with a big gun (Panzerbüchsen) for this anti-greyhound/stuart role. To make them usefull in lategame as well, suitable abilities like a tread-breaking ability fits perfect.


Generally speaking:
Early AT weapons do need a lot of mobility.

Just a suggestion ;)

Last edited April 7, 2010 at 6:09 PM by Venoxxis

Venoxxis wrote:
One of the few units i've got some doubts about a usage in your concept. I mean this pak is extremly weak.. a compareable weapon i mean pretty much the same is on the AT halftrack and its doing only 30 damage. Thats nothing at all. Even with a AP shell ability which would duplicate the penetration and maybe give some more damage this wouldnt be that usefull still.

Yes the Pak36 should be in Tier1 IMO, it's a pre-war weapon able to shoot only light armors (from front). But instead APCR ammo it could have Stielgranate41 ability (for Ammo cost) - shaped charge, and this should penetrate any armor.

The Pak 36 already has the Stielgranate 41 abilty, Camoflauge abilty and I have also made mention in the concept that is is both more accurate and mobile than other anti tank guns such as the Pak 38 or 57mm because of its weight, size and for balance. Anti tank infantry can either be the Sturm grenadiers with panzershrecks or one of the Foreign reward units with anti tank rifles (Finnish or Hungarian), and if by panzerbushen you mean the Panzerbuschen 43 I would only consider it as a reward unit over the Pak 36 however I would then be copying you by doing that Venoxxis (instead of tread breaker I would probably put in an ability to rapid fire for a short time at the cost of munitions)

I do appreciate the suggestions ;)

Last edited April 7, 2010 at 6:57 PM by Raider217

another solution would be to make upgrades for the pak:
gobal upgrade to replace the pak 3,7 cm with a 5cm pak and maybe later on tier 4 with a 7,5cm pak

Except you get the 7.5cm with the Fortress Deployment and the 5cm is already with Wehr so its not that original

Okay well, the Stielgrante rulzes any kind of russian steel.
Its penetration is at close rage compareable to the gun of the Panther with AP rounds. Thats quite impressive..


But well yea, this PAK gotta be really highly mobile, your right about that. i dont know if that works with basic pak concepts as we know them from COH.
But having a pak which is just usefull with its special ability is the thing im thinking about atm.
Therefore i was thinking about a highly mobile and flexible AT-guy, besides of its orgniality.

But i like that idea of the Stielgrante by the way ;)

The pak 36 is only meant to stop early tanks and armoured cars past that it has limited usablity where you are forced to move up to more efficient anti tank wepaons such as the Marder II which has the 7.62cm or upgraded Pak 40 7.5cm gun. The Pak can still be used at the late stages with the Stielgranate and Camoflauge but that cost munitions

As far I remember AT guns are extremly weak against infantry, and this Pak is rather weak against armour, so why don't you give it frag ammo upgrade- it will be weak against heavy armour, but it would be useful against infantry. I would suggest 2-3 shots during the ability - damage similiar to granate.

37mm HE had worse effects vs infantry then a hand grenade.

I concur. That "granate" must have been a nightmare for tanks and infantry alike in both theaters.

The point of Pak's are an anti vehicle/ tank weapon and thats what its abilities should reflect

Yes, but in later game stages you have absolutely useless weapon. It should have some advantages, but as far I see there is only camouflage and "One strong shot -then die" ability. For instance Wehr PaK is quite powerful even against heavy armour, and you have one strong at gun and one so-so at gunt. So give it some advantage against other units types because it lacks of at firepower.

Concept Edit's

1.
Pak 36 may now be upgraded to fire tungsten cored ammunition as its standard round improving damage and penetration (Will not penetrate front armour of a T-34 but you should set an up AT gun in front of a tank and if that does occur you may still use the Stielgranate 41 which will penetrate the frontal armour)

2.
Tungsten Upgrade for Pak 36 now added to Increased anti armour efforts upgrade in Engineers hall

cephalos wrote:
Yes, but in later game stages you have absolutely useless weapon. It should have some advantages, but as far I see there is only camouflage and "One strong shot -then die" ability. For instance Wehr PaK is quite powerful even against heavy armour, and you have one strong at gun and one so-so at gunt. So give it some advantage against other units types because it lacks of at firepower.

Like a treadbreaker? PE halftrack also has a PAK 3,7cm so its only fair to give this ability to this light AT gun.

The Pak now starts being able to take on light armour/vehicle and Stielgranate for heavier tanks and can then be upgraded to be and effective ambush weapon with Tungsten rounds as standard effective on side and rear armour, Stilegranate 41 effective at close medium range against all armour and Camoflauge as well as being highly accurate and with good mobility its powerful enough if i add anything else it'll be OP