[1.04] Won´t get better - Balance & building speed in 1vs1 is absolutely a joke

First of all I would like to say that this mod is outstanding made and fits perfectly to CoHexcept for the balance of the russian army.

You all agree with me that no fine working strat against PE, Wehrmacht, the brits and the americans will help to win the battle against the russian army which is good because a new faction needs a new strategy.

But:

Due to the fact that the russian units are quite cheap and buildable very quickly the russian motto "quantity against quality" works perfectly for them and made them unbeatable in 1vs1 games. I normally play this mod only in 2vs2 games with my mate and we found out that the only almost working strat as Wehrmacht against the red gaggle is trying to wire them out, suppres them with MG units and snipe out as many as possible while the Pioneers can cap half of the map.

In 2vs2 fights this works rather fine but in 1vs1 games you go down with this and all other strats I used because you don´t have enough popcap or even the time to build up a definsive line.

It is always the same. Pioneers are shot down during wiring and the MG unit is busy with the ingenery while getting strafed, flanked and shot down by conscripts (which even doesn´t cost any population I guess). The only strat that almost worked was a vetted Pio-blob which has nothing to do with tactic.

It is an absurdity that the least russian units like the conscripts and ingeneries are able to supress and kill qualified startup units like Volksgrenadiere and MG. They have to go down like flies - otherwise you do not have a chance to build T2 which is absolutely neccessary to stand against the first russian tanks.

I have many doubts that the "Ostheer" will fix this balnce issue and therefor i played the mod the last time in 1vs1 today until the philosophy of CoH for 1vs1 games (defeating a faction with any other faction) will move into this mod.

we've been playing this mod for a week or so and since our office team are tough guys experienced in original CoH they already found some quick solutions against Soviet infantry spam. Strange enough to me but the solutions are based off tiny PE squads instead of initially massive and diversified Wehrmacht faction. Gewehr rules, Scoutcar rules, fire concentration on officer squad, whatever... Personally, I was shocked at first when we began and I preferred the Axis - there were no ways to stop "the Red tide". Now I switched to Russians trying to build a strat to survive and hold my fuel. The next week will dot many i's...)
However playing vs Soviet CPU is a nightmare. Being able to best any "Hard" CPU of other factions I hardly stand against "Normal" Soviet. Funny...

greyreth wrote:
... Gewehr rules, Scoutcar rules, fire concentration on officer squad, ...

Yes, but you have´nt got enough fuel and population for building the "Logistiks Kompanie" with your first PG squad which is furthermore neccessary to stop the first ingenery squad. And the bike is helpless and hasn´t even enough capping speed to increase the needed fuel and amunition stock alone.

i ahve also experiencied this
i got a awesome replay were 3 axis (PE,PE;Wehr)
are getting pushed back and then destroyed all the russian tanks with hetzer,jagdpanther and KT
I played Pe and first won with gewehr 43 and scoutcars, STg 44 works amazing  (30 Strelky killed in 10 secs with 4 panzergrens dead)
in 1v1 scout car works good and fokus on the officer

Ok,
but Hetzer, Jagdpanthr and King Tiger aren´t units available in early game or am I wrong?

And sorry, but I do not believe that the scoutcar will survice long enough facing a command squad to focus fire on the major while getting strafed by ingeneries or conscripts.

As already mentioned. In a 2vs2 or even 3vs3 the axis factions could stand long enough against the russians to buit up an army. I only criticize the balance situation in 1vs1.

Westoffensive,
have you tried at least 2 Scoutcars, moving to avoid backside fire and pushing enemies from green covers?

I'll be honest to say that I've seen these balance concerns since day one....and I must say most of them have been totally addressed so far in 1.04.

PE vehicles didn't live long enough in V1.01 because of the amount of rifles shoooting at them. Hoever when I halved their penetration against them it brought them to the same level as when you're facing US or Brits...if not worse to be fair...

Engies are still a tad bit more powerfull at the moment but will get the conscript rifle next patch so they won't be a front line unit until you upgrade them to sturmovies.

Also...forget ALL about previous strats and tactics vs US/Brits. You need to make new ones up. Aka, change MG42s for bikes etc...

There are way too many things you can do with PE/WH vs soviets that you could never get away with vs US/Brits. I have found that too many complaints come when people don't change tactics build orders etc and expect the same old stuff to work vs soviets. You don't change balance to fit tactics...its the other way around

Zerstörer wrote:
There are way too many things you can do with PE/WH vs soviets that you could never get away with vs US/Brits.

You are absolutely correct but no one has answered to the crux of the matter yet. The massive amount of russian units in the early game which strafes you from all sides followed by the early available and nearly unsuppressable Major with his buddies.

Zerstörer wrote:
I have found that too many complaints come when people don't change tactics build orders etc and expect the same old stuff to work vs soviets. You don't change balance to fit tactics...its the other way around

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. I guess we all know that a german pioneer doesn´t win the war alone but what should a Wehrmacht player build first? Panzer Command for "Ostwind"?
As already mentioned before I´m a fan of changing old tactics to new ones but you do not even have enough time to try something new because the russian army rapes your base diectly. Unfortunately there doesn´t exist a unit in any other faction that is able to shoot in three directions at the same time.

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I made my statement and I´m not only one who has doubts that 1vs1 against the russians is a fair and balanced battle.

Sorry but when you build such a huge expansion for an existing and fair game you also have to deal with criticism.

Soviets just win the first engagement if Wehrmacht only has 1-2 units out.  Just don't be so aggressive with the first unit from the WQ.  Use it to cap a resource in the back and wait for the second and third unit to come out before looking for a fight.  1 mg and 2 volks can take on any Russian blob, even if he has consistently been making conscripts or engies ever since...build some sandbags with your volks if needed, and stay in superior cover.

If in the case he rushes you when you only have 1-2 units (From the WQ) with a good flank, plan ahead and expect to lose that first engagement...get in green cover, focus fire on the engies, and hit the retreat button when you get swarmed.  Try not to lose more than 2 members of that initial volks squad.  Your 3rd WQ unit should be finished at this point...get in there with all 3 units working together to rape his ass now.

Also, wire any green cover they might be able to use against you.  This is crucial for the early engagements

Last edited February 20, 2010 at 2:47 AM by Chancellor

QuoteSorry, but this is complete nonsense. I guess we all know that a german pioneer doesn´t win the war alone but what should a Wehrmacht player build first? Panzer Command for "Ostwind"?
As already mentioned before I´m a fan of changing old tactics to new ones but you do not even have enough time to try something new because the russian army rapes your base diectly. Unfortunately there doesn´t exist a unit in any other faction that is able to shoot in three directions at the same time.

We're fine with constructive critisism and (assuming you're running 1.04 cause the flood complaints were for 1.00)
I'll note the following that might help you as I've studied,played and have seen alot of matches live from very good players and I stand by the fact that the only time you can't handle the soviets is when you use the same old tactics.

Early units wise, flame pios +Volk/MP40 2bikes/swimwagon and after that an 2 MGs (always in stagger positions) is more than enough to counter the early Soviets.

Vet the flame pios and MGs...get a Halftrack once you hit T2 which is amazingly useful cause the soviets don't have Bars/stickies or buttoning

Have a look at our replays section as there are some awesome games and you'll see some great tactics and by all means...if you still say that you can't counter them, post some replays so we can have alook and see how genuine those complaints are.

You're not the only one to say these things and there are alot more people who will claim PE/WH/Brits/US are OP because they can't get the game tactics right.
If we just accepted everyone's opinions there would be no balance because everyone sees balance differently. And it doesn't mean because you complain that you're right.

Favourite quote 'Replay or it didn't happen'. Aka back up your claims

Cheers

against the halftrack, soviet player often uses a huge blob of anti-tank rifles, any good ideas against that?
i think in 1v1 the match is pretty much balanced so far
also i am not a big fan of people shouting OP,OP once their beloved volksspam doesnt work anymore ::)

Pauly3 wrote:
.. i am not a big fan of people shouting OP,OP once their beloved volksspam doesnt work anymore ::) ...

Great statement Pauly. This implicates that I am a player who spams his opponent with blobs of Volks and Grens. I guess you haven´t ever seen a game from me, or?

But keep your mind at rest - I don´t even build a medic bunker when playing the Wehrmacht.

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I really don´t know how all the suggestions like "flame pios +Volk/MP40 2bikes/swimwagon and after that an 2 MG" should help without having enough fuel and ammo.


Ok, because many of you (and especially the developers) hold that the early game is balanced and fair this mod has died for me in 1vs1 matches.
Spamming huge blobs of cheap and useless units followed by a one man army has nothing to do with tactic.
That´s the same shit like building plenty of emplacements with the brits because of nescience how to handle the british units right.

Maybe the soviets are not able to win a fight with tactical competence instead of spamming all men they have but then the whole mod was developed in the wrong direction (my opinion).

Last edited February 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM by Westoffensive

Once again..I digress show us your 1v1 replays where you found it neigh impossible to beat the soviets  because it is so hard to get map control.

QuoteOk, because many of you (and especially the developers) hold that the early game is balanced and fair this mod has died for me in 1vs1 matches.

Again show us replays to make a valid case otherwise , quite frankly, I neither care about unfounded claims and nor will statements like 'awww I quit because of this, boo hoo!'  force me to change stuff to your liking.

Btw have you played with the Soviets to try the span like crazy and no tactics? Cause I'd like to see you play both sides, post some replays and then come back to me about balance.

Cheers

@ Zerstörer:

Do you really think I would open such a thread and criticize the balance if I were able to gain enough map control to built up an army which can resist the soviet blobs?

And yes - I played the soviets as well and it takes about 10 to 15 minutes to control the whole map and force the axis player or CPU to capitulate (CPU can´t capitulate for sure).

Concerning your desires in replays:

As you say: "Replay or it didn´t happen".

Where is a replay from a 1vs1 match where an axis player dominates the game and prevents the soviets from teching?
Most of the replays in your section show 2vs2 or even 3vs3 battles but these combinations aren´t the problem.
The only 1vs1 replay where the axis player dominates was on Moscow and this one isn´t very representive due to the fact that there are practically no fuel and ammonution points to capture.

So, isn´t it funny enough to play with or against the soviets in 1vs1 or is it impossible to win with an other faction? Why are there no replays to have a look at?

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And to be honest. I really don´t care if you care about my "unfounded" statements and claims. This is the criticism you have to deal with and between you and me - you (as developer) have to proove me the possibility to dominate the game with an opposing faction - not me.

Last edited February 20, 2010 at 2:10 PM by Westoffensive

Does this mean you won't post games vs  human opponents to prove your claim then?

If someone wrote...I can't beat the WH early game, make Conscripts into KCs...should we be changing that?
No.
What makes your claim any more valid than the above example you think?

My job is to filter/separate genuine balance claims from claims made by those gamers who are either not playing well or just fail to use correct tactics in Human vs Human games. This isn't a simple process.

So, I've told you what would make a claim worth genuine consideration and its quite simple.

I deal with 'unfounded criticism' the only reasonable way possible, I discount it as hearsay which has no substance.
When it comes to balance we deal with proof and facts and of story.

Last edited February 20, 2010 at 2:28 PM by Zerstörer

Zerstörer wrote:
Does this mean you won't post games vs human opponents to prove your claim then?

No, that means that it isn´t my job to show someone being raped by soviet blobs. I guess everyone who has ever played this mod knows what I mean.

Zerstörer wrote:
If someone wrote...I can't beat the WH early game, make Conscripts into KCs...should we be changing that?
No.
What makes your claim any more valid than the above example you think?

This is like comparing apples with oranges. I only criticize the possibility of building a huge soviet army which are able to overrun any other unit in early game WITHOUT having built only one tier. It´s not the strength - it´s the amount of soviet units.

Zerstörer wrote:
My job is to filter/separate genuine balance claims from claims made by those gamers who are either not playing well or just fail to use correct tactics in Human vs Human games.

Fine. My opinion of your job is more like taking claims and criticism to my game/mod from any other players serious and proove if they could be valid.

Zerstörer wrote:
So, I've told you what would make a claim more valid, so in the absence of 'valid proof' to make me reconsider it, its discounted simple as that.

Yes you did, but this would be first time that someone has to proove his claims instead of getting prooved that black is white.

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Your answers only show that you are rather pissed off and could not deal with critiscm.

To end this neverending story:
You should close this thread because nobody has anything to tell something except us two. Only helpful hint was the one from Chancellor - thanks for that I´ll try this but I have my doubts.

Good job with this mod - keep the spirit alive.......

Last edited February 20, 2010 at 2:45 PM by Westoffensive

QuoteNo, that means that it isn´t my job to show someone being raped by soviet blobs

Well its hardly my job to show someone how to play the game now is it?

lol If I got pissed off with everyone who wrote something in an online forum I would have given up the internet a very long time ago.

QuoteFine. My opinion of your job is more like taking claims and criticism to my game/mod from any other players serious and proove if they could be valid.

That's an unusual way of seeing things unlike real life....
Its like taking someone to court and say 'Judge, this guy is a thief so punish him'
Judge goes 'ok, so what are your evidence to support  this claim?'
And then you go 'I don't need to provide evidence! I called him a thief! Now he needs to prove he's not a thief!
Can you guess what the judge says next? lol

Alas to close this, I made it quite fair and  simple for you. I explained why replay is the genuine way so we can consider it. The option is always there. You don't want to post it, that's your business and its fine by me but you should not expect us to make changes based on unfounded claims. But this is they way we roll here when it comes to balance, proof not hearsay.

Have a nice day and yeah I'll get someone to lock it no worries  ;)

Last edited February 20, 2010 at 4:17 PM by Zerstörer