Soviet tank tweaks? POLITE disscusion and ideas welcome

The soviet tanks REALLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY got nerfed, the IS2 especially. By RL standards, it had more armor than tigers or panthers and the gun was better in all ways but reload speed due to 2 part loading which is demonstrated in the game at least. I have seen the change log and effects in game and I watched an IS2 get easily wiped by a couple schreks. It seems the schreks actually end up doing more damage than tank shell half the time and with a vetted tiger with (IRL) less armor it just tickles the health bar on the frontal arc.  ???

Now, you might say "but that is because it is a vet tiger, duh!" IS-2s were manned almost exclusivly by elite guards units, you would not trust your best tanks with a farm hand would you? As well I have seen some very bad shots from the IS-2 and with the long reload and minimal (comparative) damage and weakened armor is a probable death for the motherland. The IS-2s gun also packed a large HE shell that was actually better for killing slant armor vehicles like panther and would often crumple machinery from shockwave alone that caused turrets and tracks to stop working and often knocked splinters in the crew compartments and even breech the hull catastrophically not to mention the massive anti infantry and structure capibilties (I have observed a slight AOE). This is why it was classified as a breakthrough tank, meant to take AT head on and blow defenses to shreds altough typically not for close infantry fighting.

A cost increase to implicate any of this might be getting a little on the silly side, maybe upgrades in ammo somewhere for vet? The t-34s now are alright except for the 85. A P4 does more damage to it than it can deal back, even non vet and the 85mm gun was far superior as well as armor in the early models of p4. I suggest slight cost increase with a damage one but the accuracy I feel is sound with the skill of the the typical crew then.

I hope I can get more of history buff reaction out of this rather than some 12 year olds definition of over powered... any ideas on comprimises and ways of implicating parts or all of these ideas are welcomed.  :D

Actually the IS-2 did not have more armor then the Tiger but the IS-3 did, both carried the same cannon though. I honestly think that the IS-2 is very very well balanced... 1v1 it can beat almost every other production tank out there... (exception being the Vetted Panthers) Panzers can't breach the front armor and PaKs have a hard time dealing with them after the first 3 shots.... I honestly don't see a reason to change the IS-2

Panzerschreks and panzerfausts could penetrate 200mm of armour so they should do a lot of damage.

but for the sake of balance they don't otherwise the Panzershreck (210mm pen.) would be the best and panzerfaust (150mm pen.) would be a really quick counter and people would spam Volks

Still even zooks and picked up schreks dont even tickle either panthers or tigers of vet

The Bazooka sucked against german armor, it was noted that the GIs would aim for the soft spots because they new a frontal attack with a zooka was suicide... a few Panzershrecks where used I am sure but I don't know of any occurrences

I say the IS2 is at a good point. If it was left as it was in the launch version, the mod would probably be dead. It was already dead multiplayer wise before the first balance patch, because no one wanted to play axis at all, because there was no goddamn way to counter IS2s.

Do we REALLY want to go back to that? IS2 is finally fixed, let's keep it that way.

IS 1.00 was ludicrous. it had 1500 hpts almost the same as a freaking jagdpanther.
Now I fail to see any valid complaints about it because, it has the same armour as a pershing but 110 more hitpoints...400 more hitpoints than a Panther and a very meaty gun which in a way is a supped up version of the 90mmHVAP!. In most respects it IS like a Panther/Pesrhing so what more can you ask??
T34/85-the envy of all other factions. Its faster,cheap,better armed,better armoured than PzIV/Sherman/Hetzer/Stug/Cromwell. What else could you possibly want?? All the other tanks have to reach vet3 to come close to competing with it. And unlike all other allied tanks it has a chance vs a shreck blob
SUs have a mother*** of a gun but don't work well on their own(hint hint)

QuoteThe t-34s now are alright except for the 85. A P4 does more damage to it than it can deal back

Replay or it didn't happen! I've tested it extensively. If you keep frontal armour on the PzIV (which is easy as T34 is alot faster) the T34/85 will always win. If you don't micro and let the vetted PzIV get to the position where you're exchanging flank shots, then it might Just win

Ahh i feel vindicated thanks guys

I love the T-34/85 and use it more then the IS-2s ;D so much better for the cost imo

IS-2 is much slower than Tiger (but how - it had better engine and was more than 10 tons lighter).

Also, fore rate is extremly low (okey, its correct - but why 1/2 of IS-2 shells still dont hit even side armor of Panther and just flew aside?), so usually german tank could hit IS-2 3-4 times, and IS-2 can hit some body only 1-2 time...

Also - Pz.IV, Pz.V, Tiger and Konigtiger had deadly MULTIPLE mashineguns, wish is extremly effective v.s. infantry. IS-2 in this case is a sitting duck.

And the last thing: IS-2 is a heavy tank, like Tiger/KonigTiger. It must be doctrine tank for 100%.

P.S. pls correct AI pathfinding of IS-2 - it is extremly stupid...

AI pathfinding is Relics domain, not the EF team. You want to complain about engine related issues, post on the Relic forums. This forum is for issues specific to to the mod.

Why? Why should it be a call on tank? It is just as strong as a Panther with comparable costs

Medium (main combat tanks)
T-34/Pz.IV/Sherman

Heavy tanks (specific separate heavy support batallions and regiments)
IS-2/Pz.VI/Pershing

Pz.V is vetween them, stronger than T-34 but weaker than IS-2. It is different level between that two. Even for Tiger IS-2 was though opponent.  Panther for IS-2 was "baby, come to papa :)". Did You ever read IS-2 main gun test? ;)

its probably a propaganda tool, it was a HE shell not an AP shell so it wouldn't have gone through the tank :D

Artillerist wrote:
Panther for IS-2 was "baby, come to papa :)". Did You ever read IS-2 main gun test? ;)

...no.  The effectiveness of the IS2 against tanks depends on who you ask... the people who built it or the people who got shot by it.

"German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective than the Soviets thought: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m."

The IS2 had more armor and was more effective against infantry with it's slow-projectile heavy gun.

The Panther had better speed and better AT capabilities with it's high velocity cannon.

This is not Russian propaganda
Iosif Stalin tank IS-2 tank

Wikipedia give this details
Specifications (IS-2 Model 1944[1])
Weight 46 tonnes
Length 9.90 m
Width 3.09 m
Height 2.73 m
Crew 4

Armor 30–160 mm
Primary
armament D25-T 122 mm gun (28 rds.)
Secondary
armament 2×DT, 1×DShK machine guns
Engine 12-cyl. diesel model V-2
600 hp (450 kW)
Power/weight 13 hp/tonne
Suspension torsion bar
Fuel capacity 820 l
Operational
range 240 km
Speed 37 km/h

Other material about IS-2

In January of 1944 the last 40 JS-85s were manufactured at the ChKZ. After this, it produced only the JS-122. These mounted the new 122 mm Tank Cannon D-25T with a wedge-shaped semi-automatic breech, which allowed an increased rate of fire from 1–1.5 shots per minute to 1.5–2 shots per minute. In March 1944, the «German-type» muzzle brake was replaced with a better design from the TsAKB. At the same time, the JS-85 was renamed JS-1, and the JS-122 was renamed JS-2.

At this stage, the issue of the JS-2's armament was not completely resolved. The military was not satisfied with its low rate of fire and limited ammunition stowage — only 28 two-piece rounds (compared to the 59 one-piece rounds for the JS-1 and 114 one-piece rounds for the KV-1S).

Further, after the first encounters between the JS-2 and German heavy tanks, it turned out that the sharp-nosed 122 mm APHE round — BR-471 — could only penetrate the frontal armour of a Panther up to 600–700 metres. The less powerful frontal armour of a Tiger could be penetrated at distances up to 1200 metres. However, at such distances only very well trained and experienced gunners could score a hit. The vertical armour of a Tiger I, although thicker than that of a Panther, was more easily defeated by the sharp-nosed projectile of the JS-2 Main Gun, whilst it often ricocheted off the sloped armour of a Panther. Later, Soviet designers noticed the blunt-nosed projectiles worked fine against sloped armour. After several tests, designers revealed the effect of «normalisation». The powerful HE round, OF-471, when fired at German tanks, caused cracking and could even completely tear off the front armour plate at the seam weld. The first results of the IS-2 in combat (backed by the results of its tests at the Kubinka testing grounds in January of 1944) forced designers to look for new solutions to its problems.

However, in the summer of 1944, the problem of the poor AP performance disappeared. The performance of the D-25T gun of the JS-2 against the German tanks improved dramatically. The reports from the front described cases where the BR-471 APHE round 122 mm projectile fired from 2500 metres ricocheted off the front armour of a Panther leaving huge holes and cracks in it.

This was explained by an interesting change of circumstances in the Summer of 1944. The Germans experienced a shortage of manganese and had to switch to using high-carbon steel alloyed with nickel, which made armour very brittle, especially at the seam welds. The first encounters of JS-2 tanks with the Germans also showed that the front protection of its hull was not impenetrable.

In the beginning of 1944, an attempt was made to improve the protection of the JS-2 by tempering the front armour to very high hardness. In practice, it led to a drastic increase in the number of components needed for the hull and significantly increased the cost of the tank's production.

In March 1944, firing tests were conducted with a 76.2 mm Gun ZiS-3 firing at an JS-2 tank from 500–600 metres. The tank's armour was penetrated from all sides of the tank. Whilst while most of the projectiles did not penetrate the armour completely, they created major splintering and fragmentation inside the turret. This explains the considerable losses of JS-85 and JS-122 tanks during the Winter-Spring of 1944.

In February of 1944 the Central Scientific Research Institute #40 (TsNII-40) was delegated the task of researching the armour protection of the JS-2 heavy tank. The research showed that, given the existing shape of the front of its hull, the tank would be invulnerable to penetration by any German 75-mm and 88-mm AP projectiles only if the hull's armour thickness were increased to at least 145-150mm (i.e. an addition of 20–30 mm thickness).

On the recommendation of the TsNII-40, new specifications for armour tempering and a new design for the front of the JS-2's hull were developed. The new hull, with a straightened glacis, preserved the same armour thickness while the plug-type driver's hatch was removed, greatly increasing its protection from the front. The glacis was sloped at 60 degrees from the vertical, which resulted in the German 88 mm KwK 36 gun being unable to penetrate it even at point-blank range when fired at a ±30 degrees angle.

However, the lower front hull armour plate, sloped at 30 degrees from the vertical, remained vulnerable. To increase its slope would require significant alteration to the layout and design of the driver's compartment. Since the probability of a hit on the lower part of the hull was low, it was decided to leave the design unchanged. From July 15 1944, spare tracks were attached to the lower hull to increase its protection. In May of 1944, the UZTM plant started manufacturing the new straightened welded hulls. Factory #200 began making the new type of hulls from June of 1944, but these were cast, not welded. However, for a while, tanks with old and new hull-types were produced simultaneously.

As for the tank's turret, it turned out to be impossible to increase its armour protection. Designed for the 85 mm gun, it was completely balanced. After installing the 122 mm weapon, the turret became very unbalanced. The Design Requirements intended for an increase of its frontal armour thickness to 130 mm which would have unbalanced the turret even further and would have made a new traverse mechanism necessary. SInce all these changes required a complete redesign of the turret, they were all cancelled.

Nevertheless, the appearance of the turret was considerably changed in the process of its production. The first batch of tanks manufactured in 1943 had a narrow porthole through which the sighting telescope fits. After the installation of the D-25T Main Gun, it became almost impossible to use the telescopic sight, even though its breech was the same as that of the D-5T.

Starting in May of 1944, a new turret with a widened porthole was manufactured, which resulted in the sight being moved to the left. The armour protection of the tank's mantlet was improved and the armour thickness of the sides of the lower hull was increased.

The commander's cupola was shifted 63 mm to the left and the PT4–17 periscopic sight was changed to a MK-IV sight. A DShK anti-aircraft machine gun (designer P. P. Isakov) was installed on the commander's cupola. After that, no further significant changes were made to the turret until the end of the war.

http://www.battlefield.ru/en/armors/28-heavy-tanks/32-js1-js2.html

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It would be nice if IS-2 will have upgrade available.

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Last edited February 16, 2010 at 1:39 AM by PSIHOPAT

The shell would explode on impact literally shattering the armor not actually piercing it... that combined with the over pressure of the explosion, metal splinters and heat would kill the crew... but a shell going through and through a panther is next to impossible unless they used a SABOT which they didn't...

Site where can be found some details about IS-2 and other russian tanks,but not only...
http://www.battletanks.com/soviet_union.htm
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I suggest to be separated SU-85 from SU-100 tank destroyer.
For each can be a separate upgrade.

Upgrade for SU-100 will be SU-100 L Gun

1944- Soviet SU-100 Self-Propelled Gun
Armament:          I - long 100mm gun
Engine:                V-12, diesel, 500 hp
Speed:                30 mph
Range:                200 miles
Crew:                    4
Weight:                36 tons
Main gun developed from a 3.94" naval gun. Formidable
tank killer. Remained in service until 1960's. Limited
ammunition storage. Built on T34-85 chassis. This is
a second specimen.
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I also suggest to be considered IS-2 as a doctrine reward(breakthrough),and ISU-152 to be used by all doctrine as a best tank hunter.His armor will be weak,but having powerful shoot.IS-2 will have medium AT power,but excellent defensive ability,and used as a spear head assault force,due to his resistance,and ISU tank destroyers will support them if is need.


1943 - Soviet ISU-152 Heavy Assault Gun
Armament:          1 – 152mm howitzer ML20
                              1-12.7mm MG
Engine:                V2K, V-12 diesel, 600 hp
Speed:                23 mph
Range:                112 miles
Crew;                  5
Weight:              50 tons

An impressive monster, the ISU-152 was one of the first Soviet heavy self- propelled artillery carriages. Initially, it was based on the KV-1 chassis. When production of KV-1 ceased, the IS Series chassis was used. Entered service in 1943 in time for the battle of Kursk. Served both as an anti-tank gun and a heavy assault gun. Fired a 2-piece cartridge at a rate of only 2 shots/min. Ammunition storage was sparse, requiring supplies by ammunition carriers. Called "Zveroby" (animal killer) by Soviet tank crews because of the devastating effect of its 95 Ib. projectile on Panthers, Tigers and Elephants. Very effective in the Battle of Berlin. Served after the war as late as 1956 where it was used in crushing the Hungarian uprising. Over 700 were produced. Developed into the ISU-130 post war with a 130mm gun
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This is IS-3,and if can be used in some way,will be great

He look absolutely wonderful from all sides.

Last edited February 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM by PSIHOPAT

Well, i do recall the IS-3 being rather debatable as to whether it saw combat. It i believe was first seen in a parade in moscow or something after the war ended.

Is true,but this game have some exceptions who don't respect history.

I think you know them.

hgghg4 wrote:
The Bazooka sucked against german armor, it was noted that the GIs would aim for the soft spots because they new a frontal attack with a zooka was suicide...

There a hull mg in the front of a tank. Thats attacking a tank from the front is suicide. Germans knew that as well. :P

I was saying if the MG wasn't there  :P the zooka couldn't penetrate the armor on the Panzers :-/

All the guy ask's for is a IS-2 that can drive right into a KT 5x tigers and kill em all without a miss. Its the pride of his country he heard fairytales about it as he was growing up. now he realises he had been fooled >_< doooh

IS3 didn't take part in WW2 vs germans. Some 300 were rushed to Berlin for the parade so staling could show off(quite successfully). There are some vague rumours about taking part in fights vs Japs in Manchuria 45 but nothing confirmed.

There were 3 T44s assigned to a special detachment for trials that are likely to have fought vs the germans but thats not confirmed.

As far as the MG on the cupola is concerned, it means that we have to re-do the models for the hatches along with new animations so...its highly unlikely...not for some very long time anyways