Artillery,Trenches,Bunkers.

What is the opinion of community about new models for artillery,bunkers and trenches?

The idea is to give even more strategic and tactical options and requirement,and liberty for decision in adapting and creating personalized warfare stile.

Having at disposal many types of bunkers and trenches for infantry and artillery,with variation in size,cost and health,will make unsupported or not calculated direct assault a simple suicide.


If will be made new models for trenches,will make them more important,appropriate from reality.At this time we have just small line trench.New models can be "T trench", "L trench","S trench","F trench".F trench can have two models.One type can be one used just for infantry,and other for infantry plus artillery.

Strong defensive positions will make every game to take longer time,and elaborated long time tactics and strategy  will show the result and winner will be just person with less mistakes or good plan =>the one who truly deserve victory.Now victory or defeat can happen or come fast after one lucky artillery hit who kill more than half of the enemy army,and unlucky person will be unable to hold the line until reinforcements will come.

Also with number of models for artillery almost equal with infantry or tanks(4-5 models for each faction),with varied abilities,power,caliber,specific purpose, cost,will be nothing than a excellent improvement.All MG and artillery can have ability to entrench himself with cost of manpower,if they choose to stay separate from special "F or T trenches"  used for mixed units.

At this moment all battles are rush and harass,in guerila fights.Even after making what i suggested, harassing and guerila fights,flanking maneuvers at small or big scale,infiltrations,snipers,air support will be availeble or even more =>necessary.

Defensive lines will be serious problem.Assault will need careful analysis and calculations,for successful breaking through enough remaining for continuing attack.If plans will be wrong,assault will stop at the line,or will have little power for advance or defend against counter attack.

Also all cover must have much more importance for infantry,artillery or tanks.All vehicle and tanks must offer green cover.Infantry is very important to be able to use abilities when are in trench or buildings.buildings to offer protection almost like trenches,making infantry from inside hard to be eliminated without snipers.

After this improvements/changes is necessary to be doubled maximum number of population,for providing necessary units for massive direct assault and/or defensive purpose,plus forces for flank,harass,recon,support and guerilla operations.



I made all possible to be clear in explanations,but my english is poor...

Last edited February 9, 2010 at 2:47 PM by PSIHOPAT

Thats one of the major problems modding CoH.
Its seems almost impossible to get new models in for the new factions, just reusing the old ones with other skins is possible atm.
For now, we gotta be satisfied with the old ones.. :(

How about using british mortar emplacement as a trench structure for russian Mg,or to be built(empty) by engeniers,and used as a trench/cover for AT infantry squad,or russian snipers.

This is possible ?

Also how another mods can bring allot of units,and this mod can't increase number of artillery models?

For example i would like to have two or three models of howitzers,and to use what i want.Same is for AT guns or mortars.Having just one model for mortar,AT or howitzer is very sad.

Last,but not the last,increasing bonus for units in cover or from buildings,trenches or near to tanks, will make game to take longer,and to offer enough time for long term plans,strategy and actions...not just blitz and jogging on the entire map.Also if maximum population will be doubled,the result will be epic battles,and massive assaults will give us allot of spectacle.

Last edited February 9, 2010 at 3:04 PM by PSIHOPAT

yea i know what you mean.
I would like to see that as well, but currently i dont have an answer. lets wait for a developer !

The trench designs in maps like kursk and kurland kessel are  all well done and are good inspirations for design if it was possible to construct them. I do like how  the designers  made it so you can repair  damaged trenches.

My highest wish is for the almighty developers to allow ostheer to build trenches also , whenever it will be completed. It about time the axis side  should be able to build a trench, the brits and the soviets can, so why not the axis?

And from how the  soviet mg emplacement  portrait looks like, It was meant to be the coh wooden bunker/shack with an MG, which would look a lot better and be more realistic with how field emplacements were often constructed, not out of lengthy concrete construction process, but using what was available, wood, rocks or other materials(even snow in the winter).

I also agree that  allowing footmen abilities inside trenches/buildings should be allowed more, like throwing grenades out of a trench , and so on.

The closest thing that comes to 'emplaced artillery' that is possible at the moment in the coh world, is in the BotB mod , where there is an ability  for veteran artillery to  dig itself in with sandbags.

Last edited February 9, 2010 at 3:18 PM by Hpt.Berger

Way too complicated for most players. There really is no need for more than one type of each emplacement.

Maybe if EF was a realism mod... but it isn't.

Sad to hear such answer...:(...

But i wonder how this mod have nothing with reality/history,when allot of things found here,can be found in history..?...simple coincidence..?...and until now i found no laser or other alien things...

Also why is no need for more options ?Because will make the game too complicated ?

But if the game is very simple,strategies are very limited,and where are more options,is possible to make elaborated strategies....and what is wrong in that ?

I really don't want to insult...i just want to ask...and i really like this mod very much...but this mod is meant just for kids ?

Detailed explanations about my suggestions(negative or not) will be very appreciated.

I have to agree with you. Totally!!

But the fact is that CoH is a game focused on on "little" skirmish, where you had to preserve your troops from ennemy's fire. So i think it will be complicated for modders actually to develop this concept:they will have to change AND vanilla faction AND new faction ( soviet and of course ostheer), as well as adapte new maps... it can take a long time.

And this kind of game need as you say, a lot of improvements, like melee combat with bayonets (would be awesome!!), and Coh dont have these animation...

The concept is really brilliant, but i think it will stay a concept until a new CoH...  :'( :'(

For EPIC and EXHAUSTING war is no need too much work.
Is need just concept.

Why ?
Because rules are applied to ALL factions.

Example :
1 - double maximum population for all factions,but number in squad remain the same
2 - increase defensive bonus for all infantry in light cover,heavy cover and buildings
3 - all tanks give heavy cover for all nearby infantry
4 - all tanks make low damage to buildings or trenches
5 - all artillery have bonus at destroying buildings,but less chance for killing infantry inside
6 - all infantry have cost halved
7 - all snipers have cost halved and cost one pop but maximum number limited(because urban fight will be nightmare without they and to many bring unbalance)
8 - all tanks have big difficulties in killing infantry when they are in cover,trenches,bunkers,buildings
9 - all self propelled guns have better chance in killing infantry(but limited and not too much)
10 - all grenades have good chance in killing infantry in cover or buildings,but chance for throwing them where they want depend by skill of the unit(need adjusted to every unit with grenade)
11 - all rifle have bonus in killing infantry in cover but less chance of hit for moving targets
12 - all infantry with rifles are unable to shoot when moving
13 - all SMG are deadly at close range,are able to shoot when moving,and kill infantry fast if they run in open field,but but have difficulties in killing units with more than light cover or against units from buildings,bunkers or trenches
14 - all infantry with flame throwers do great damage against infantry in high cover and are the best solution in killing fast infantry from buildings,but have very small range,very low accuracy against moving targets,cannot be used when moving,explode when the infantry is killed burning nearby friendly or foe units and do little damage to bunkers,trenches and buildings(for balance and strategy reason)
15 - all field artillery move very slow
16 - all artillery cost reduced by 30%(AT,howitzer,mortars)
17 - All Mg have cost 30% reduced
18 - all trenches,barbed wire,tank traps,road blocks cost manpower for build
19 - all small arms make no damage to armored cars
20 - all shreq and AT rifle destroy armored cars fast,but are unable to destroy tanks,just damaging engine if they hit them from rear
21 - mines destroy armored cars but just "wheels" from tanks
22 - tank traps and road block cannot be destroyed easy with small shells,and just concentrated artillery fire or explosive charges manage to do this in reasonable time
23 - all barbed wire damage wheels from cars,and slow them until they get repair 
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Another changes who need work
1 - two types of AT field guns,mortars,howitzers,heavy MG, for every faction(2+2+2+2= 8 units =>hard work this)
2 - three or more models for bunkers for every faction
3 - four models for trenches,from small ones to heavy ones who can keep inside even howitzers,mortars,infantry,or AT guns
4 - some AT guns,mortars,howitzers,Mg,have ability to entrench himself (and there will be the fun in choosing)
5 - british mortar emplacement to be used as nest for soviet Mg,new fixed soviet mortar,or small trench for snipers and AT squad,and can be built just by engeniers




That's it for now...

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Last edited February 10, 2010 at 9:46 PM by PSIHOPAT

So you want it a realism mod? Well go DL a realism mod then...

Quote previous words and give them as a answer.
Genuine answer.
:))

I have many mods installed.
Don't worry about that.
Many are just craps.
But some are good.
From all i like just Eastern front and Europe at War V3.0

My sadness is =>this mod have allot of potential but is not used.
another sad think is => another mods will make advantage from this,using russians as a new faction,with more elaborated and complex system.

PSIHOPAT wrote:another mods will make advantage from this,using russians as a new faction,with more elaborated and complex system.

Only one mod has the permission to do this, and that is Normandy 44: European Theatre. You fall into the minority audience of realism players, so perhaps you would want to try that out once it has the Soviet faction completed.

The best balanced mod between reality and game mechanics is this mod.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=230782
Too much reality destroy the gameplay,but also if is no reality fun for games with subject WW2 is lost.

I strongly recommend to make few battle with that mod,and after that,maybe you will like some things,or get some inspiration.

Anyway,i don't like few things from that mod,and answer can be found in my suggestions from above.

Last edited February 11, 2010 at 5:16 PM by PSIHOPAT

WartyX wrote:

Only one mod has the permission to do this, and that is Normandy 44: European Theatre. You fall into the minority audience of realism players, so perhaps you would want to try that out once it has the Soviet faction completed.

Damn that is a great lookin mod... did you take part of it?

I didn't personally, but a number of Eastern Front members worked on N44 though, such as Sweeten, Georider, Dragon93, Loran Korn, and of course the late MrScruff.

if i didn't want a full conversion I would DL it...

I suggest to be replaced mortar from russians with light howitzer model.It would make USSR even more unique from other factions.Also it will make sense such powerful explosion.

This light howitzer can be moved with low speed,and use artillery barrage(or autoshoot) and can counter enemy artillery.The model look like howitzer built by americans with infantry doctrine from original game,but this one can move.

Can be saw in action in that mod suggested by me as a inspiration source.Just choose americans with paradrop doctrine,and test them in battle.It look wonderful,and come from support building.Also his explosion is enough powerful,but not like the british bombardment.That piece is a jewel.

Another interesting and nice models for units or unit pictures can found there.With credit for their team,work for Ostheer will be reduced very much.

Last edited February 13, 2010 at 7:19 PM by PSIHOPAT

they have the Firebase no need for a howitzer

No one spend resources for such useless thing.
Can be modified in next patch to deserve the cost.

But also the idea is to make russians even more different from other factions,with "new" unique model.Can shoot at the same range as heavy mortar having auto-shoot or artillery barrage.After upgrade can be able to use counter artillery ability.

Last edited February 13, 2010 at 10:37 PM by PSIHOPAT

I still fail to see the logic behind changing it...

Because don't exist model for new 120 mm mortar,and no faction use light mobile howitzer.Explosion from 120 mm look silly now for such a small model.Also think about ability suggested by me.It will make russians to don't need Mg,if developers will continue to think that.

Last edited February 13, 2010 at 11:04 PM by PSIHOPAT

i currently don't think the Russians need an MG anyway... Your point is invalid because you want them to change something for the sake of changing it...

No.

Changing something who don't have his model,with something NEW.

Easy way for better result.

This light howitzer will look far better than what it is for 120 mm mortar,and with upgrade for counter artillery will be very useful mobile artillery piece.

so its an infantry based Priest minus the overwatch.... I am going to quote you here

PSIHOPAT wrote:
Make useful comments with better suggestions

Is light artillery used like 120 mm mortar,with new ability after upgrade.

It is bad ?

yes... it is... there aint no real reason for it... why bother?

A 120MM mortar looks just like a regular mortar... just bigger tube...so having it the way it is seems fine to me... and calm down... I am trying to prove a point that it doesn't need to be changed at all... including changing the model and/or abilities...

I know how it look a mortar and howitzer because i used them both in real life.I have been trained in artillery.

120mm mortar is carried with cart on short distances,and with car long distance.We don't have this until now,but at last we can use that model who already exist(USA,inf.doctrine),but is used at long range artillery and is fixed.This new artillery piece will shoot with the power and range of 120mm mortar,and after upgrade will have a special ability,who will make them to worth all his price,shooting in any artillery piece who strike friendly units,far from his normal attack.

Replacing one model with another already made(used rare and with different purpose),and giving one ability is MUCH easy than to make new 3D model.

Also,can be good,if will be decided to be used as a new russian weapon,without replacing anything.Will be two weapons with different purpose

That is the point =>something new with few effort

Last edited February 14, 2010 at 12:26 AM by PSIHOPAT

Honestly the 120mm Mortar is already worth its price.. I have seen one shell wipe out 4 squads in one shot... That in itself is worth the price...

1-Current model is not what must to be,and look silly.
2-Current price for upgraded mortar is too high,and un-upgraded one shoot very slow,with bad accuracy
3-Shooting range is too low for this weapon,and make them vulnerable to enemy direct fire,or enemy mortars,who are more cheap and can be recrewed if loose all soldiers;mortar halftrack  will kill all crew or destroy russian mortar without any problem,because is able to shoot and change location fast,and with incendiary attack will give no chance for enemy infantry/crew

Russian mortar is powerful in shoot,but is just an easy/expensive prey for germans

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009-11-22-seelower-hoehen-by-Ralf-10.jpg

M1938 mortar
Place of origin Soviet Union
Wars World War II

Weight combat: 280 kg (617 lbs)
Barrel length 1,862 mm (6 ft)
Shell 16 kg bomb (35 lbs)
Caliber 120 mm (4.72 in)
Breech muzzle loaded
Muzzle velocity 272 m/s (297 yd/s)
Effective range 6,000 m (6,600 yd)
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50-MM LIGHT MORTAR (German)

German 50-mm Mortar U.S. 60-mm Mortar
Caliber 50 mm 60 mm
Weight in action 31 lbs 42 lbs
Length of barrel 18 in 28.6 in
Maximum range 568 yds 1,935 yds
Minimum range 55 yds 100 yds
Traverse 600 mils (change in deflection) = 33°45' 140 mils (70 either way) = 7°57'
Rate of fire 6 rounds can be fired in 8 seconds. but this rate cannot be maintained Maximum: 1 round in 2 seconds; normal: 1 round in 4 seconds — this can be maintained
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8 cm Granatwerfer 34
Used by Nazi Germany
Produced 1934-1945

Weight 62 kg (136.6 lbs)
Shell 3.5 kg (7.71 lbs)
Caliber 81.4 mm (3.20 in)
Elevation 45° to 90°
Traverse 10° to 23°
Rate of fire 15-25 rpm
Muzzle velocity 174 m/s (571 ft/s)
Maximum range 2,400 m (2,624 yds)
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WWII era 60mm U.S. M2 Mortar

Weight 19.05 kg (42.0 lb)
Barrel length 726 mm (28.6 in)

Shell 1.33 kg (2.94 lb)
Caliber 60 mm (2.36 in)
Elevation +40° to +85°
Traverse 7°
Rate of fire 18 rounds/minute
Muzzle velocity 158 m/s (518 ft/s)
Maximum range 1815 m (1985 yards)
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Last edited February 14, 2010 at 11:52 AM by PSIHOPAT

which is why you don't leave your mortars unsupported....

useless comment...

not useless, you are stating they are really weak and get cut down easy... the only mortars that don't get cut down by rifle fire are Mortar Pits and that is only because of 5% bug...point is, is you don't lead an assault with mortar teams.... and you are saying make them more hearty, but why? They are support weapons...not frontline assault troops... so where is my useless comment? I still have not made one in this thread...

All mortars are supported in the battlefield if is unit available for that.

120mm mortar deserve far much longer range than any other mortar,slow rate of fire,and low/medium accuracy.This will make them different from others.Now i say is much worst.He have powerful shoot but is too expensive and fact that cannot be recrewed make situation even more bad.With mortar halftrack can be destroyed allot of russian mortars without any problem.Also other mortars are far more attractive.

unless the MHT gets hit by the HvyMrtr

He can't hit them.

Will shoot and move.

After one incendiary will be silence,and that mortar can't do anything.
With supply truck few feet back,MHT will go back,recharge fast ability and shoot again killing allot of other infantry units.

Even normal mortars have advantage,because shoot faster,have better accuracy,cost less resources,and can be recrewed. 

trust me... the Heavy Mortar is fine... it doesn't need to be changed, reskinned, remodled or anything... it is... fine

:))))))))))))

First-I don't trust anyone,and why should i trust you when even my friends or family have maximum 70% trust?...

Second -nothing in this world is perfect,but close can be reached,and no one has managed to make a perfect thing

and 120mm mortar is far to be perfect...
with your standard nothing will progress...
nothing new is need...
no change...
no improvement...
no critics...
no analysis...
no new ideas...
no debate...
no evolution...
NOTHING!!!

Last edited February 15, 2010 at 1:02 AM by PSIHOPAT

ok... you have trust issues... i don't need to hear about them...nor do anyone else, we don't want your personal problems...


also I did not say it was perfect... I said it was fine... I rather the Devs work on the Ostheer more then one unit of the soviet army... they slave their asses off time and time again but little nit pickings like "I don't  like the Mortar looks like the 80mm and 60mm mortars" or "The Mortar costs to much" ect ect.... need not to be addressed...


Can I get a Dev Lock please...