Propositions for balancing the game

Balancing a game like CoH is a very hard work. Here are some propositions for balancing the game :

Without the patch, soviets were  op
With 1.01, I found the game fine, maybe some little things to change.
With 1.02/1.03, Soviets union became up, PE, which is underpower against other factions, owns soviets so easily.

-Mortar : Decrease cost to 300
As I said it can't only shot if it sees the ennemi and has a very short range (that we can't see). Moreover it can't retreat and they are only 4 man. They die so easily => 350mp for nothing.

-Snipers : Change the Brit arty to US arty = No first shot that block all the soldiers. Cost of the arty : 50 ammo and Time before being able to use it again : 180 seconds

-SU 100 : Decrease cost from 500mp to 400mp.
Ok it have been fixed and became usefulh. Sure the su shouldn't be used alone but it costs just too much ; 500mp 100 fuel 300 ammo for just one tank destroyer only useful when supported and even supported with infs, it won't destroy ennemis tanks supported too... 

-Zis At gun : Increase its accuracy. When upgraded, increase its damage(not the penetration)
It costs 300 mps but can't be recrewed, very easy to kill, and not really accurate and powerful : it is a shitty at for mid game.

-KV 2 : Limit it to 2. Increase its accuracy and increase its received penetration.
This tank is too slow and paks or schrecks can destroy it fastly. It is very inaccurate against infantery.

-Sniper Ace: 
  -Descrease its cost from 750 mp to 600 mp
  -OR it needs 2 sniper shots to kill it, increase its health and as the Knight Cross Holders, It can survive to one arty shot but injured.
The Urban is doctrine is a bit underpower, flammers are good, partisans are well done but their end game units are just shitty. The sniper ace is supposed to be an end game powerful infantery unit that can infiltrate ennemi base. However, it is now just better to use it as a normal support sniper or a simple spotter. It should be able to spot and to kill from the inside. 2 motor for 360 mp = dead.

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 1:08 PM by Iglooman

id just like to comment abit what u said, because i think ur missing a few things

well firstly some units are bugged this patch, like sniper, strelky, etc

but comentate on ur propositions:

mortar, you are very wrong here, unupgraded mortar costs 350 and is 4 man, but even if it doesnt have barrage ability, just must simply use attack ground ability and u can shoot into fow. u dont seem to ever upgrade your mortar, because then ud know, upgraded one now costs 437 (bugged cost shoudl be 350) but it gains barrage ability, more range and 5 man. ofcourse only new ones do, so spend your 100 munis before you produce first mortar

for snipers, again, they are bugged, otherwise theys cost 75mun upgrade to use arty per sniper

SU 100 is only a tank hunter and is pretty good vs panters, it doesnt have much hp tho. i have not played much in 1.03 to know if the new cost is good but suposedly its better than it was before

zis at gun, again u dont seem to upgrade your units, because upgraded zis is very good at killing. and it get acc and range and whatever bonuses if its upgraded. but remember only new ones get upgrade bonus

kv2, maybe, but on the other hand, it has quite large at damage. basicly to use it u need to move forward slow and use its range

and lastly for sniper aces, this is where u must be most wrong, because it is incredible. he runs at full speed while cloaked and also recloaks after firing very fast. for a mere double the cost of us/wehr sniper, you essentialy get a vet3 ami sniper, that also has commando smoke (helps survavibility alot) and can also sticky. that in itself is incredible, i have played games where this sniper ace would sticky everything on wheel and at the same time never die due to speed in cloak and smoke. it is incredible unit and i think opposed to you, it should actually cost 150 mp more not 150 less like u suggest.

also note for urban doctrine (supposedly underpowered u say) 50 mun flamer for sturm engies makes them the best infantry in the game u must realize this (1 pio costs 120 50 with flamer, while 1 engi with flamer costs 150 50. only that its better than 2 vet3 pios with flamers. the sturm upgrade gives them lots of hp and also invulnerability to mines and also incredibly underestimated, they can throw satchels for free, which is insane)

and for partizans, yes they dont seem that special, combat-wise you must use them as you would storms with mp44s, but i dont think u realise how much abuse potential they have because they have free demos. cloak them, get them into enemy base and win. for FREE

there are 2 seemigly useless ability in urban id agree, not one step back and booby trap for partizans, but well if u use booby trap with wire its incredible and im not sure about not one step back, it does seem pretty bad.

i just writed this because i thought just about everything u proposed seem to indicate u didnt play much of the mod.. i can be wrong, but please try to see what i mean by writing and try it urself i think ull see that ur wrong here

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 4:25 PM by bavbav

Urban doctrine UP?  lol

Dual flamers with sturm ingies are the most dangerous combo against infantry and buildings known to man.  They rape vetted wehr inf like nothing else.  And booby traps are never worthless.

The mortar is difficult to balance because it one shots wehr/pgren squads.  Low survivability but extremely high damage output.

Urban doctrine is really less used than the other. Why? It costs two much manpower and soviets really need it.

Dual flam is good ok, but cost 50 ammo when you need ammo to upgrade unit. Remember that they can't make observation post. Same they have been nerfed and they are not invicible. They don't rape wehr infantery (have you downloaded the patches? they are not the "best", if they were the best, they would own volks at least). Same, remember that flammers kill more units if your section is un high cover (increase damage or accuracy don't remember).

Yea the mortar is difficult to balance. I am more talking about the cost of unupgraded mortar than the upgraded one. And even with that, pioflammers vetted 2 making a fast attack own all your units. As said before soviet's mid game is just too underpowered ( there are bugs but still ).

I know for the snipers bug, ok but I just had another proposition. Actually the british arty was bugged, the first shell comes too soon (go look at relic forums) but there are no patch. And now people think that this arty was made like that in order to rape ennemi infatery.

Zis very good at killing? With bonuses a bit more but yet it cost 300mp 100 ammo and can't be recrewed (very important point).

The sniper ace is a last game unit. Should have better survival capacities. When you have detected it, you just destroy it fastly. It needs a lot of micro ok but still, should resist to 2 sniper shots.

I did not say that partisans were up. The doctrine is.

The point is that I don't ask for a big "Buff" but this a fact : urban is not used a lot.

Remember that soviets don't have any logistic :
-can't retreat
-can't improve ressources
-can't recrew
This means that axis just have to hunt ennemis and to cap ressources. PE is very good for that.

Unless you did not play a lot 1.3 EF or you did not play against good opponents, you would recognize that soviets are up mid game. Or the game depends a lot on the T2 with mortar. If you need to spend to get a decent mortar this is ridiculous because wehr will get nebels or acs will just pown you. Better to spend that one At rifles.

"indicate u didnt play much of the mod"
Well I played maybe 10 games with axis, I have won them all (even when there wasn't patch) and more and more and more games with soviets (did not win them all). Sure I need to improve but as I already said, mid game soviets were nerfed too much last patch, even if there are some bugs.

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 8:50 PM by Iglooman

well i have played alot of games in EF since 1.0.. im also pretty high lvl it really seems to me your missing some crucial things and because of that u say sov midgame is up. i mean what can i say, we can play games and i can show you how to use wsc units?

like i said, mortar, use attack ground it will fire even if u dont see enemy units. that is very important. and saying mortar is bad, u must upgrade it, 100 mun and the mortar is like a howitzer

zis again, upgraded it has high dmg output and doesnt misses. seems to me equal to pak except no cloak. it sure has better dmg

it is very very important to upgrade you units especialy wsc units... for recrewing, the only things u could recrew is mortar and zis it really doesnt matter, thats why u get 5 man squad size, also use them with outposts..

now the thing with ingenery is the same. unupgraded they die very fast. but once u buy 200 muni upgrade and u go urban doctine for flamers they are hands down best infantry in the game. i will say again: 150mp 50 mun, basicly for half the cost u get a unit that is better than 2 vet3 pios. how can u underestimate this? not only is the hp and dmg basicly like 2 vet3 pios, they also get free satchels and immunity to mines! u DONT need munis for anything other than upgrading ur sturm ingenery man... apart from maybe upgrading zis and maybe tanks, but u can just buy is-2.

now the fact they cant retreat seem to realy bother u aswell, but abilitys are ther eto counter that. simply use fireup and sprint abilitys, they have so many...

improving resources also isnt in because sov can secure the map easly early and hold it with outpost, then quick tech to wsc.. i mean just imagine what theyd be like with ops... unbelievable, they dont need much muni and fuel as it is. infact go play sov/brit combo and ull see, fully upgraded sov in 10 mins with is-2 spam

just for the sniper ace, just like any sniper u cannot use it alone. but while he has no retreat, full speed in cloak and smoke are enough that he never dies if u take care of him like you would of any sniper. he also gets sticky, foo arty, what mor eu want. for 750 its not only a goodly sniper, but also vehicle disabler and unit that fires foo arty form cloak. do you realize how deadly that is? 

just, why do u think sov midgame is so underpowered? best mortar, best sniper, very good at gun, tank hunter to prevent flak to at gun... make sniper with at gun. nothing can come close. thats how up sov midgame is... support wsc units with command squad and outpost and its done, u dont need any doctrine or tanks..... they just make things easyer. well like i said id be glad to show u, if u want, and maybe ull change ur mind about this. or maybe i will but i doubt that :P

I've won as axis most of the the time but mostly because some very crucial mistakes were made on their part.

Like the last game one of the players decided to multicap a high munitions point with like 5 conscripts and a command squad when he KNEW that I had a MHT in the area.

I basically just drove right up to them and fired an incendiary mortar, then watched 70% of them just die. And shit like this happens a lot.

Last edited February 1, 2010 at 1:27 PM by maccollo

What you are saying maccollo is that your opponent made bad mistakes.

Anyway there was patch that fixed a bit the mid game with the incresae of the survival capacities of mortar and Zis.

bavbav wrote:
just, why do u think sov midgame is so underpowered? best mortar, best sniper, very good at gun, tank hunter to prevent flak to at gun... make sniper with at gun. nothing can come close. thats how up sov midgame is... support wsc units with command squad and outpost and its done, u dont need any doctrine or tanks..... they just make things easyer. well like i said id be glad to show u, if u want, and maybe ull change ur mind about this. or maybe i will but i doubt that :P

What you are saying is interesting. You can win with only support units?????! Ok pioflammers vetted or nebels and bye bye everything or hetzer + mortar ht + blob mp44
I think you have misunderstood me :
-Tank rifles are not up, they have been buffed and they can kill a panther ok
-But, what I said, is in low ammo map (ha! don't play high ressources with US player that can make observation posts!) improving units cost ammo, you can get with the upgrade a good mortar. But I don't want to have a strategy around support unit as mortar. Why? Because, very easy to lose (less with the new patch ok, but before yea) I have to recognize that I often went propaganda so I prefered to wait for a katyusha and spend for IS2 and guards.
-Now with the patch soviets mid game is less up since conscrits can get molotov for only 125 ammo.

"improving resources also isnt in because sov can secure the map easly early and hold it with outpost"

Easly early??!! Ok they need to mass their units to fight and if you do well you can anilhate the entire early soviets units. Or just can make some damage and back. This actually depends on the map. So it is hard to say who will have the advantage on early game.

"unbelievable, they dont need much muni and fuel as it is"

Yea but have you seen the manpower they need, how it goes down fastly?

"infact go play sov/brit combo and ull see, fully upgraded sov in 10 mins with is-2 spam"

Unrealistic combo but I have already won it even in 1.0.

"now the fact they cant retreat seem to realy bother u aswell, but abilitys are ther eto counter that. simply use fireup and sprint abilitys, they have so many..."

Sure I use them, but an axis player would hunt your injured units (more in early game) and even with your outpost, you won't be able to counter them.

"now the thing with ingenery is the same. unupgraded they die very fast. but once u buy 200 muni upgrade and u go urban doctine for flamers they are hands down best infantry in the game. i will say again: 150mp 50 mun, basicly for half the cost u get a unit that is better than 2 vet3 pios. how can u underestimate this? not only is the hp and dmg basicly like 2 vet3 pios, they also get free satchels and immunity to mines! u DONT need munis for anything other than upgrading ur sturm ingenery man... apart from maybe upgrading zis and maybe tanks, but u can just buy is-2."

You misunderstood me, I did not say that ingenys was an up unit. I answered that they were not invincible in early game.
When I say :"Urban doc is up" it does not mean that every thing in it was up, I was more talking about the KV2 and the sniper.

"just for the sniper ace, just like any sniper u cannot use it alone. but while he has no retreat, full speed in cloak and smoke are enough that he never dies if u take care of him like you would of any sniper. he also gets sticky, foo arty, what mor eu want. for 750 its not only a goodly sniper, but also vehicle disabler and unit that fires foo arty form cloak. do you realize how deadly that is? "

Ok you launch a sticky. What happen? Unless your opponent don't know about this sniper existence, he will try to find it .
But ok, it was just a proposition, just asked for better survival capacities. I know that is deadly but it is really easy to kill if soviets use it as a spotter/killer (and not only a spotter). However ok, let my proposition go down, I don't play a lot urban doc but if you'd better spend  750mp for a IS 2 (remember that you said that they get fuel easily) than a simple sniper. This is just too risky, I know that it should not be superman but it is a last game unit.

"Im also pretty high lvl it really seems to me your missing some crucial things and because of that u say sov midgame is up. i mean what can i say, we can play games and i can show you how to use wsc units?"

Ok let's play together or I play against you. :) Just tell me what is your Ranked level 2vs2 or 1vs1. Remember also that we can't see the level with soviets and it is the begining; everyone as me or you will improve. I actually have won most of my games with soviets. Even if I have returned to coh only for EF, I don't think that I have lost a lot of my wehr/PE. I have won all my axis games in EF (I have more played with Soviets, that is sure and maybe people in front of me were not always good).

well for sniper in my experience what can kill it is counter sniper or a mine. anything else really not, axis dont have strafes... its not just a sniper, its best spotter for arty ingame and can arty itself too u know. sticky a vehicle , followed by foo arty. u will kill anything that isnt tank and tanks will get low hp

ah anyway we can play ye, whats your ro name? as for level, i dont know, if i say it just like that everywhere then i come off as bragging, but seems if i dont, im always writed off as another noob. not saying for u, but generaly.... im lvl 16 in 1v1 auto with all 4 army.. could be better if id strafe :)

Double motors can find the sniper unless it is very well hidden, in a place that they will never go to.

My ranked level is 15 wehr 13 US 13 PE 13 Brit in 2vs2 with multiple accounts. I give you one here : Add me as ChocoMac. Im wondering how you play soviets and urban doctrine.  :)

right i did, xfirestarter my name u are online now? i can see you are online on this site

I think they are fine, they should really balance late-game and tiering first since you can get tanks way too fast.

I'd like it if you could research tiers without building all of your buildings, much like the wehrmacht does it, since building all buildings would become repetitive after awile.

Mortar's have low health, extreme damage.

If they die, it's poor mangment, they should be in cover and out of the way to fire and annoy the enemy.

2 Upgraded Mortar's with Barrage are unbelivable.. They will decimate all Infantry and Light Vehicles.

Iglooman wrote:
-Mortar : Decrease cost to 300
As I said it can't only shot if it sees the ennemi

i agree the mortar without upgrade is a bit crap now...give it attack ground or give it attack ground function at least when its not set up
so it has to set up each time for a new attack ground
but when you research the upgrade it behave like any other mortar and its very good

Quote
-Zis At gun : Increase its accuracy. When upgraded, increase its damage(not the penetration)
It costs 300 mps but can't be recrewed, very easy to kill, and not really accurate and powerful : it is a shitty at for mid game.

its accuracy is exactly the same like other AT guns so its fine
and when its upgraded its penetration become awesome
almost like AP round penetration

Quote
-KV 2 : Limit it to 2. Increase its accuracy and increase its received penetration.
This tank is too slow and paks or schrecks can destroy it fastly. It is very inaccurate against infantery.

its accuracy/splash is very good against infantry or paks
but it take some time until its bullet hits so infantry can move away when microed
and it hard hit armor like stugs when it hits
and its very good against pe light vehiclesand infantry blobs

i would see the kv2 more against support weapons like paks, hmgs and stuff

Quote
-Sniper Ace: 
  -Descrease its cost from 750 mp to 600 mp
  -OR it needs 2 sniper shots to kill it, increase its health and as the Knight Cross Holders, It can survive to one arty shot but injured.

than it will be not countersnipeable