57mm AT cannon ZiS-2

ZiS-2 was, at average, the most effective AT gun of WWII. At usual "open-fire" range of WW II, 300-500m, only 1-2 hits from that hun was lethal for every German panzer (exclude KingTiger and Ferdinand, wich could be burned only from <100m range). In service, many veterans recall this cannon directly as "Tiger killer".

It is very nice that we have this weapon in game.

But a model of this gun is still missing (M-1 is used instead of it). Any chanse to see this WONDERFULL model?


Also, IMHO ZiS-2 is somewhat underpowerred in Game. It is nedd OR increase damage (it is need more than 3 shots to kill Pz.IV - noncence!), OR to give it ability to "Hide" like PaK-38 od Wehr now have.


ZiS-2
Number built 10,016
Weight 1,250 kg (2756 lbs)
Height 1.37 m (4.5 ft)
Caliber 57 mm (2.24 in)
Breech vertical block
Carriage split trail
Elevation -5° to 25°
Traverse 56°
Rate of fire up to 25 rounds per minute
Maximum range 8.4 km (5.21 mi)

Armour-piercing Shell BR-271 (used from 1941)
Muzzle velocity - 990m/s
At 1000m range pierced 74mm armour (with angle 60*) and 90mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 500m range pierced 84mm armour (with angle 60*) and 103mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 100m range pierced 93mm armour (with angle 60*) and 114mm armour (with 90* angle)
Undercaliber armour-piercing shell of the bobbin form BR-271P (used from late spring 1943)
Muzzle velocity - 1270 m/s
At 1000m range pierced 83mm armour (with angle 60*) and 101mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 500m range pierced 120mm armour (with angle 60*) and 147mm armour (with 90* angle)
At 100m range pierced 155mm armour (with angle 60*) and 190mm armour (with 90* angle)
High-Explosive-Splitter shell UO-271U (used from 1941)
Muzzle velocity - 706 m/s
Weight - 3,4kg, (contained 0,220kg of explosive)
Max. range - 8.400m
Anti-personnel Case-shot USch-271 (used from jan 1945)
Weight 3,66kg (contained 324 bullets)
Effective fire range up to 200m.

Compared to German Pak-38 (50mm):
Pak-38's weight is 120 lower, but ZiS-2 had much better armor-piercing abilityes, Shell weight, muzzle velocity. Also, Pak-38 had damasking effect when shooting because of barrel break.


Compared to English 6-pdr Mk.II (57mm):
6-pdr Mk.II's wight is 100kg higher, in the same time it has lower muzzle velocity, lighter Shell and bad armor-piercing abilityes. Advantages of 6-pdr Mk.II compared to ZiS-2 is much better Traverse Angle (90* to 57*).

Compared to American M.1 (57mm):
M.1 is heavier than ZiS-2 to 200kg, but muzzle velocity, Shell, armor-piercing abilityes is still weak compare to ZiS-2.

Compared to German Pak-40 (75mm):
In comparison with more high-class gun — German 75-mm an anti-tank gun the Pak 40 also are obvious advantages of the Soviet gun which, despite smaller calibre, almost on 400 kg the smaller weight and absence barrel brakes, has on 220 km/s higher initial speed that, despite more than twice heavier shell of the German gun, gives ZiS-2 advantage in settlement armour-piercing ability. At the same time, in practice of advantage ZiS-2 were a little levelled for more quality account of German armour-piercing shells. Surpass ZiS-2 on settlement armour-piercing ability only powerful, anti-tank guns which have appeared in 1943-1944, such as British 76-mm Q.F could. 17 Pounder in weight more than two tons, German 88-mm Pak in 43/41 weight more than 4 tons and 100-mm Soviet BS-3 in weight more than three tons, and also small-scale German 75/50-мм anti-tank gun Pak 41 with the conic channel of a trunk. Also, the worst disadvantage of Pak-40 was that "No Step Aside" stile of AT defence - after only 2-3 shots, it was impossible to remove it or even turn it to change position when Soviet Tanks were moved to flanks. It just easily digged it legs into the ground, and it was usually need a tracktor to "pull it up" from the ground.
ZiS-2, despite not the best traverse angle, was very easy to handle even with crew of two soldiers to change section of fire.

QuoteZiS-2 were used and in fight for Berlin, sometimes carrying out unusual functions for anti-tank tools. So, on April, 29th, 1945 320th Guards istrebitelno-anti-tank regiment has appeared on a way of the German parts breaking from Halb "sack". The fastened fight reminded battles of Napoleonic times: Germans practically had no armoured vechicles and attacked gun positions in the big weights of infantry, and calculations ZiS-2 answered case-shot with fire from close distances. As it has been noted in the report of connection:
"Weights of corpses of the opponent rolled round gun positions, and the opponent all continued to press"
In a course of action by a regiment it has been destroyed to 420 and it is taken prisoner 250 German soldiers and officers, and also it is lined two armoured troop-carriers. Own losses have made 9 persons the killed and 22 wounded men.

To developers: I have full material about this cannon: factory drawings, original service manuals e.t.c. I will share them if You need it!

Best wishes!
P.S. Upgrade for ZiS-2, to give it cumulative AP shells is MISTAKE, because this kind of shells were designed (and never admitted to production) only in late 50'th!!!
The only solution will be to rename that upgrade to "Research advanced undercaliber AP shell"

Last edited January 30, 2010 at 11:39 AM by Artillerist

QuoteP.S. Upgrade for ZiS-2, to give it cumulative AP shells is MISTAKE, because this kind of shells were designed (and never admitted to production) only in late 50'th!!!

Download the new patch.

WartyX - I have it already, just feiw minutes after it was released.

But may be I just had not noted changes.

Sorry if I am wrong.

What you need to understand is that historical accuracy has little to do with vanila gameplay. You'd never have an AT gun killing aPzIV with 3 shots...that's ludicrous in balance terms.

And as Warty pointed out, you should always read the notes, play several games and then comment on balance.

It would be nice to see this great looking model of ZIS-2 in-game. Anyway it looks quite finished, so i wonder why devs used the american model instead. But as for its firepower ill wont call it underpowered, i think its firepower is quite great, it tooks only two shots to destroy a Puma. Ofcourse only when you have two at a same time...so one shot from each, because Puma will easily flank it if you have only one and kill the crew members. In most occasions you dont have any chance to react, or to somehow save it. The worst thing isnt exactly the loss of this gun, but problem that happens afterwards. You cant retake that gun, but germans can and they will likely do so. Ive mentioned this in my own thread. So Perhaps not the firepower of ZIS-2 needs to be improved, but the survivability of its crew.

P.S: Ive did not tried the new 1.02 patch however so maybe something from my suggestions will be outdated. I just hope the crew can take more shots and not die so easily...

Last edited January 30, 2010 at 6:19 PM by Strayker

I dont get why they say Zis 2 tigers arent your friend...ZIS2 was best russian at gun with long barrel and great penetration that could probably kill tigers. It was 76mm ZIS3 that couldnt kill tigers, but ZIS3 was more of a field gun.

Zerstörer wrote:
What you need to understand is that historical accuracy has little to do with vanila gameplay. You'd never have an AT gun killing aPzIV with 3 shots...that's ludicrous in balance terms.

And as Warty pointed out, you should always read the notes, play several games and then comment on balance.

Played 4 games yesterday...

1. I am perfectly understand that vanilla game is far from Real Life. I accept that ZiS-2 will not kill a Tiger with 1 shot in frontal armour - because it is impossible to realize it in game by many reasons. Thats ok.

2. In the same time, we have 50mm Pak-38, wich is killing T-34 in 3 shots (noncence iRL). T-34 had better armour than Pz.4, and ZiS-2 is much better than Pak-38 - but still things are as it is in game...

3. I agree with its damage, but survivability of crew is very low and reinforcement price (110mp) is too high. The only solution to inproove it is to give ZiS-2 an ability to "hide" like Pak-38 and PTRD squad.

4. I think, at least ZiS-2 must be not the worse (in "damage" characters) then Pak-38 and 57mm M1/M2. If You dont want to improove it al little, pls dont make it worse! It is just not fair...

P.S. I see that SA is much weakened now, but for me as a russian it is ok - it is more interesting to fight vs Axis... Even if I will have just sticks and bricks to throw on Panzer :) As I live in Stalingrad, I always play in "No step aside" tacktics :) But I take ZiS-2 close to my heart only because of 1 main reason: my grangrandfather was an artilleryman (same as me and my father), he fought from 6.1941 to 3.1944 in Anti-tank artillery, equipped with 45mm AT gun and from mid1943 - with ZiS-2. To his last combat in Belarus', when his battery 100% get killed, he was able to destroy 12 german tanks personally, including 2 Tigers and 3 StuGs. So, I have a really pain when I see that ZiS-2 is SO underpowered ...

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Zerstörer wrote:
And as Warty pointed out, you should always read the notes, play several games and then comment on balance.

WartyX wrote:

QuoteP.S. Upgrade for ZiS-2, to give it cumulative AP shells is MISTAKE, because this kind of shells were designed (and never admitted to production) only in late 50'th!!!

Download the new patch.

Ok, I have 1.03 now.
Upgrade states: "Кумулятивные снаряды" (Cumulative AT shells). So... It needs just change test. Best of all to text "Undercaliber AP shells".

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 7:37 PM by Artillerist

I will change, but in the original were:

ZiS-2 HEAT rounds => Cumulative AT shells

High explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warheads are made of an explosive shaped charge that uses the Neumann effect (a development of the Munroe effect) to create a very high-velocity jet of metal in a state of superplasticity that can punch through solid armor.

Artemis - but HEAT shells were not used in WWII with ZiS-2.

Actually, HEAT shells were researched and producted mainly for howitzers (wich have low muzzele velocity, and not able to pierce an armour with AP shell), to give them ability to outfight german tank if need.

Appeareing a heavy german tanks (Pz.V Panther and  Pz.VI Tiger) managed Soviet enguneers to research undercaliber AP shell, with very high muzzle velocity (~1.300 m/s) and wolfram-carbid head. THIS is a good change for "Heat shells" for CoH:EF.

Low quality materials used on soviet shells in WW2 era dramatically reduced the life span of gun barrels which is why they were not adopted in most cases, not because of their lack of penetration abilities.

Gaming wise, we've upped the penetration of the Zis when compared to the 57 against heavy german armour making it a bit more reliable without the need of AP rounds. Also we don't want to use AP rounds as its an 'allies thing' really. Pak is bugged due to the 3 bonus shots otherwise it wouldn't compare that favorably with the Zis2

Zerstorer:

1. ZiS-3, BS-3 and M-30, wich were built in 43-45 time, were still in service up to mid 80's. Without any replasement of barrels. There was a long discussion in other "Artillery forum", were many officers discussed that weapon. And all of them noted, that that weapon, built in war time, were in exellent quility, and very easy to repair and very hard to damage due service faults. Yes, it was a problem with faults in process of shell production, wich resulted in large numbers of underpowered AP shells (maily in 42-43). But quality of weapon itself was not the problem.

2. Gaming. I dont ask to make AP shells in game for ZiS-2. I just ask to rename "upgrade" :) Anyway it is "improove" in game. And it will be just more correct :)

The weapons themselves where durable easy to maintain but of low quality...they had to be due to the low quality gunpowder used in the shells which reduced the life expectancy of gun barrels...HVAP shells were far worse...but anyways...nuff historical stuff

Mate - there are no F-16 or Abrams in WWII game - because it is another time period.

Cumulative AP shells for ZiS-2 is:
1. Out of time, more than 10 years.
2. Only in research status, and never produced.

Zerstörer, good evening!

Any chance to see my beloved ZiS-2 model in game?

Best wishes

Well, I'm not Zerstörer but there is a ZiS-2 skin finished, but I don't know if the unit is ready for the next patch though.



Source.

They tald us about animation of crew of gun. Gun itself was made long ago.

Is it possible to use US ar UK soldier team with new model?

Artillerist wrote:
...

Not full ballisticks data of ZIS-2 ... correct:

Range (m)        60 degree armor (mm)    90 degree armour (mm)
Sharp head armor piercing
300                  84                                    103
1000                60                                      74
2000                35                                      44
Blunt end (head) armor piercing
300                  89                                      109
1000                74                                      91
2000                56                                      69
Sharp end (head) armor piercing with ballistic arrowhead
500                  95                                      115
1000                85                                      105
2000                65                                      85
Undercaliber armor piercing bobbin form
300                  137                                    168
1000                83                                      101
Undercaliber armor piercing steamline form
500                  135                                      155
1000                125                                      140
1500                100                                      125

Before 85mm cannon for tanks mass production will be placed, there are 200 builded ZIS-2 modification - ZIS-4 (tank cannon) for new T-34 tank destroyer.
First grand battle - Battle for Moscow. 21st tank brigade (5-35 tanks in case of heavy loses & intencive battles).
4 days of intensive battles destroys - 1000 soldiers, 34 tanks, 210 auto, 25 AT-cannons.
One of a tank - politruks Gmir commander, in one of a marsh destroys column length 2-3 km, breakthrow on a german airfield and shoot at nazi bombers.
In hard intensive battles for 2-3 weeks all tanks will lost. (to the 25 of november)
Reorganised to 46th Tank polk & 12th guard tank polk. (company)
Then - august 1943, in "Special tank company 100".
Battle expirience for this kind of tanks wil slow, becouse new 85mm & 100mm cannons will soon mass prodused.
Only one negative side - splinter shell ... poor anti infantry shooting tests & combat expirience, Armor piercing expirience is very high.

Last edited September 19, 2010 at 8:15 AM by Sturmovik

Artillerist@ I know you're fond of the 'historical numbers' and what not, but since they don't really affect the game they're largely irrelevant. I would suggest however talking to the N44 team who are implementing the soviets with all the extra vehicles and using a different combat system to show realistic weapon penetration etc.

I am well aware of the T34/57 of which only about 200 were built. Like many other vehicles, it has no place in EF as it would duplicate the job the SU does. plus doesn't look half as good or different. Just a T34 with a longer thinner barrel boo hoo.

Firebase/Zis/Mortar/IL-2/Lend Lease Sherman are all 'stand in models' as the actual ones we want to use are not animated/skinned. In due course, we are hopping to implement the correct one in the game.

About ZiS-2 to the game, it would be nice!
Could it be possible to just put animation of US or UK crew to ZiS-2 model?

Artillerist wrote:
They tald us about animation of crew of gun. Gun itself was made long ago.

Is it possible to use US ar UK soldier team with new model?

I don't know what model was created first, but they announced the model of the ZiS3 many months ago, and I saw for the first time the ZiS2 many weeks ago.

ZiS-2


ZiS-3


Be patient, when it's done you'll see it; but certainly will be included :).

Thank You!

Will ZiS-3 be a reward for something?

Nope, it will be the upgraded Zis gun so you can visually tell if its upgraded or not

Wow nice!

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I have service manuals for both ZiS-2 and ZiS-3. If You need it - let me know. There are drawings, schemes e.t.c.

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I suggest ZiS-3 is not for "upgraded ZiS-2", but for reward unit for ZiS-2.
Reasons:

ZiS-2 was a specialized AT gun. It had smaller caliber, 3kg AP shell (Fragmentation shell was 3,7kg weight), but much more muzzle velocity (up to 1.200 m/s) against ZiS-3, wich had twice heavier (6kg) HE and AP shell with muzzle velocity of to 700m/s).

ZiS-2 was good, and extremly good only against Tanks.
ZiS-3 was good (to mid1943, when german "cats" appeared) against tanks, but MUCH better against infantry and field fortifications (bunkers, MG nests e.t.c.).

I suggest to player will choose - what is more important for him - to have good AT gun (ZiS-2) or to have multy-propose field gun (ZiS-3), wich will be more balanced - good both vs. infantry, bunkers and light armored vehicles, but twice less powerfull against heavy armor.

Last edited September 20, 2010 at 10:55 AM by Artillerist

It's not good to have AT guns be effective against infantry in this game, so I would say no to the ZiS-3 change Artillerist. It would work well as simply showing the upgraded ZiS-2.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
It's not good to have AT guns be effective against infantry in this game, so I would say no to the ZiS-3 change Artillerist. It would work well as simply showing the upgraded ZiS-2.

+1

Funily enough I did try to implement something along the lines off 57mm AP shells, but instead having them HE. Also switching between AP/HE like the Tiger ace campaign for a muni cost.
Code didn't pan out for either one. So, the Zis will remain a pure AT gun

Thank You!

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And one more:

Last edited September 20, 2010 at 7:35 PM by Artillerist

AT guns effective on infantry? Calm down, actually, caliber of effective AT-guns is not enought for anti infantry fire position. For that perpose must be MGs deploy & infanrty platoons drop to flanc defence if needed.