Potential Solution for Early-Game imbalance

Greetings, community!

(Skip to the end for a synopsis)

As an amateur modder of COH, when I saw the issues with EF's balance, I tried my hand at tooling around with some of the issues.  It seems one of the most hotly debated issue is that of whether or not the opening minutes of a Soviet player's game is too powerful.  Generally, I found this to be true, but it took me a while to understand why.

Generally, I find that many of the early balance issues come from the presence of the Command Squad.  The ability to break the suppression of troops within the first few minutes of the game really makes defensive weapons (HMGs) useless.  Often, I can pile up conscripts, let them get suppressed, and like the floodgates of pwnage, use a Command Squad to charge the whole lot forward, right past the MG, and ignore the thing entirely (if not killing it with massed short-range fire).

Instead of merely complaining about it, I tried tinkering with Corsix's Mod Tools and, just for an experiment, moved the Command Squad to the Soviet's WSC, effectively making the unit a tier-two addition to the team.

Whaddya know?  Things worked out nicely!  The Soviets were no longer able to rush the field and take tremendous amounts of territory right in the start, giving the Germans ample time to gear up and counter the Soviets for when they became able to break suppression just a few short minutes later.

I even played the game with a friend of mine, first, unmodded EF, then modded EF, and he felt, right away, that the game was more balanced.  We both felt much more like this was the Eastern Front, with myself trying desperately at the start just to throw men at the Germans, slowing their advance until the regular army units could show up and turn the tide.

In the first game, I won easily.  It was no contest, really, considering my frequent sparring partner and I are roughly on the same skill level.  I was able to set up reinforce points and pressed right over that middle bridge in Lyon within the first ten minutes or so, camping out in those two critical territories outside his base.

The second game, however, where we put in place the mod that experimentally moves the Command Squad, I tried to do the same thing again, and failed miserably!  Unable to break the suppression, he mowed down my brave soldiers with MGs (and sent Pioneers into the suppressed troops to hasten their demise), and all I could do was throw more men at him just to keep him from advancing.  Later, I was able to dig in, tech up, and slowly fight my way, block-by-block, into Lyon and destroy his base thanks to some well-timed Partisan attacks and the assistance of some lovely flamethrowers.

TL;DR:  Try moving the Command Squad to a T2 building, leave everything else just as it is.  Simple, effective, tested.

[Edit:  A simple way to test:  simply don't allow yourself to purchase a Command Squad until you get the WSC.]

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 10:18 PM by Stan

Let me get this straight.  You want the soviets to have NO means of breaking suppression until mid game.  So any units that meet an MG die completely.  Thats your idea of balance?

All wehr has to do is crank out MGs and then its GG.

xenotype makes the same point I was going to make. While the CO can nullify an MG, without charge there isn't a way to break suppression from. You'd go from undermining the MG to overpowering the MG.

Honestly I think the devs need to address the issue of the destructive mix of no retreat and suppression. Suppression in vCoH usually meant a forced retreat. Suppression in the EF mod for the Soviets means unit destruction is highly probable unless you have charge ready. While the Soviet units, by design, are meant to be disposable, the current system leaves disastrous results. Three conscript squads get forced down by an Axis HMG, unless you have charge nearby and ready, 600 mp can get destroyed by one volks squad with MP40s. And since conscript squads need to be grouped up to be somewhat of a force, groups of squads can get pinned.

The MG + MP40 combo is deadly, when used against other factions it just means you HAVE to retreat your units. But with no easy way to retreat as the Soviets, it creates quite a problem.

I think this is something that should be looked at. What I was thinking of is, if it is possible, allow retreating to pinned units only. However, they will have a movement speed debuff for a considerable amount of time once they get to the HQ, about 45 seconds I would say. It would also be nice is to make any retreating Soviet units not get the speed/armor buff. Having absolutely no retreat is a problem from my EF experience.

Perhaps make the CO arty not available until T2 (but start with it ready).

Last edited January 28, 2010 at 12:10 AM by Waphlez

The command squad is very effective in combat but the fire-up ability is just for a few seconds and then it's on cooldown. The game is pretty much perfect balanced when only facing soviet troops, the problem is in team games.

guys, all you need to do to make the command squad perfect is this.

Tier1 only have binoculars, this will enable you to see the MG emplacement weather its in buildings or not and effectivly flank them, if they spam mgs covering each other you can effectivly cap the rest of the map (thus balancing it)

Tier 2 get heroic charge, so when you get your support building completed you get the suppression break ability.

Tier3 get arty callin, because this annhilates units

Fixed

Xeno,

Yes, that IS my idea of balance!  You got that right on the button.  The mechanic that allows units to crawl away from suppressing units after a short time still works with our lowly conscripts.  Besides, at flank range and yellow cover, a conscript squad will sit quite nicely and chew up a MG's time as it shoots at the poor frightened farm-boys from the Urals.  Time that could be better spent shooting at a flanking unit, perhaps?  The options for a Soviet player to overcome the MG obstacle still present itself in the unique way the Soviets can pump out infantry faster than anyone.  However, I really am a big fan of the idea is that early Soviet infantry would be running away from MG positions early game.  Spamming MG's might work for a little while, until the Soviet player rolls out command squads and mortars (a higher priority now that its that critical).  Give it a test and let me know what you think.  Have a buddy spam MG's and give it a real, honest try.  I found it still plausible in my few games this afternoon, but I will endeavor to see how badly I can shut down my own idea with yours.

Walphlez, thanks for a courteous reply.

I agree the MG would be a powerful tool for the Germans early game, but considering that it loses much of its usefulness the rest of the game, I think such a relationship between units is still relatively balanced.  As for those other options?  I really like that idea!  A retreat option for pinned units with a long period of being "stuck" near base with a slow movement speed.  Interesting idea.  I'll experiment with the effects of that sometime (by playing a game and volunteering to have my units linger around base).

CerealKiller,

I'm afraid I'm not certain of what you're suggesting.  I'm going to assume your argument is "Leave it as is!".  A valid point, considering the time invested in this mod.  I'll be sure to pay close attention to how the Devs envisioned the game-play experience to be.

WhiteFlash,

Good thinking!  I like that idea too.  Teching the abilities, not the unit, might be the ticket.  However, it doesn't address the criticism of the first idea that Xeno brings up: the Soviets would have no way to break suppression until T2.  This is something I'm OK with, but our opponents do have some valid points concerning MG spamming.

Everyone:

Ok, we've got some good criticism so far.  I'm still not totally convinced of my honorable opponent's argument that a T2 Command Squad as-is would break the early game, so if we can keep this discussion going, we could work that out.  In the meantime, I'll keep testing your ideas to see if I'm all wrong about this.

Last edited January 28, 2010 at 2:55 AM by Stan

If implemented (I don't think it should but for the sake of argument let's say it is) then it would only be a good idea in 1v1 scenarios. For team games the Soviets would be at a severe disadvantage early game. You keep saying that the Soviets can just flank them but we're talking about flanking not some army but a static location that can be easily held regardless of flanking with proper MG placement. ESPECIALLY in team games. The Axis players would not allow you to flank anything simply because of the amount of units on the field and the area of coverage that an MG provides at choke points. At this point all you get by "flanking" is not just your primary attack forced being suppressed but your flanking force as well. So there's nothing the Soviet player can do. They don't have access to motorcycles to ease some pressure like the Axis. This is why they NEED the command squad and moreover they need a retreat button.

Thebomb,

The point I'm making is that its surprising the amount of damage the extra units the Soviets can have in the start will do, even to a theoretical "easy to defend" position, say, the bridges of Lyon or Vire River Valley.  In those cases, I would think, flatly, that the Soviets are stopped cold early game.  Its simply something they cannot do.  Axis players will be hard-pressed to advance into territory held by several dozen conscripts so early in the game.  By the time enough troops come on line for the Axis player to push, I really do feel a Soviet player of the same skill as the Axis player will have tech'ed up and have access to the Command Squad, which would re-balance the game.

As for the idea that the Axis player can just throw up an indefinitely long wall of MGs, I would argue that such a wall would be thin, and thin walls can be broken, or, in this case, simply crawled past.  Combine that with the threat of a US or Brit player rolling out snipers, mortars, or Bren carriers, and it would still be a viable MP option.

Also, having all the extra units, the Soviets can practice just ignoring the Axis units.  I've seen my opponents run circles around my troops, letting me use MGs and Volks on their conscripts while their engineers and other conscripts slip past, gobbling up the points I'm defending.  The option then is to withdraw troops to re-cap a point, or keep fighting where I stand and risk losing more points.  Think of it as water from a toppled glass.  You put your hand in front of it, your whole arm, even, but water still flows right around and soaks your trousers.

Ja, very hard to keep your units when they all get pinned. Have very few rifles and the die.

Stan wrote:
Thebomb,

The point I'm making is that its surprising the amount of damage the extra units the Soviets can have in the start will do, even to a theoretical "easy to defend" position, say, the bridges of Lyon or Vire River Valley.  In those cases, I would think, flatly, that the Soviets are stopped cold early game.  Its simply something they cannot do.  Axis players will be hard-pressed to advance into territory held by several dozen conscripts so early in the game.  By the time enough troops come on line for the Axis player to push, I really do feel a Soviet player of the same skill as the Axis player will have tech'ed up and have access to the Command Squad, which would re-balance the game.

You're making the assumption that Axis is supposed to be able to advance early game. Traditionally this has never been true (especially for Wehr). Axis aren't supposed to be attacking early game in the first place. American early game is very similar to Soviet early game in terms of the # of units they can field. Does Wehr have trouble with American units early game now? No. A Wehr player with good micro can keep his territory largely intact with proper barbed wire and MG placement even if he is outnumbered. Same thing with the Soviets except they have slightly more squads but they are also much weaker.

I just can't emphasize enough how devastating it is for Soviets not having retreat. I don't think you realize this. Bring in one pioneer squad and a suppressed Soviet squad is GONE. This is why they NEED the command squad or a retreat option.

Quote
As for the idea that the Axis player can just throw up an indefinitely long wall of MGs, I would argue that such a wall would be thin, and thin walls can be broken, or, in this case, simply crawled past.  Combine that with the threat of a US or Brit player rolling out snipers, mortars, or Bren carriers, and it would still be a viable MP option.

Are you saying that Soviet players can crawl through, while suppressed, through your lines? That's not supposed to happen - like I said, just bring in one pioneer squad (or anything with automatic weapons) and you'll tear anything lying on its stomach to shreds. Also we're talking about team games so if the Soviet player's ally brings in Bren guns or snipers have your mate help you - otherwise..yeah you'll lose 2v1.

Quote
Also, having all the extra units, the Soviets can practice just ignoring the Axis units.  I've seen my opponents run circles around my troops, letting me use MGs and Volks on their conscripts while their engineers and other conscripts slip past, gobbling up the points I'm defending.  The option then is to withdraw troops to re-cap a point, or keep fighting where I stand and risk losing more points.  Think of it as water from a toppled glass.  You put your hand in front of it, your whole arm, even, but water still flows right around and soaks your trousers.

You don't have to move anything back. Just keep a bike or two behind your lines and they'll make quick work of anything trying to slip by. American players almost always auto-retreat if they get hit by a bike behind enemy lines. This is doubly amplified by conscripts since they are much weaker.

Last edited January 28, 2010 at 4:30 AM by thebomb

thebomb,

QuoteDoes Wehr have trouble with American units early game now? No.

To this, sir, I humbly disagree.  The American early game (if we wish to discuss it) is a challenge to the slower, more defensive Wehr early game.

QuoteI just can't emphasize enough how devastating it is for Soviets not having retreat. I don't think you realize this. Bring in one pioneer squad and a suppressed Soviet squad is GONE. This is why they NEED the command squad or a retreat option.

I'm not trying to re-write the Soviet faction.  This decision to get rid of the retreat function by the Mods authors appears to be something they are proud of, and something I think adds quite a bit to the game.  I happen to realize, good sir, the impact of having no retreat option.  I will not comment on what I feel you do or do not realize.

QuoteAre you saying that Soviet players can crawl through, while suppressed, through your lines? That's not supposed to happen - like I said, just bring in one pioneer squad (or anything with automatic weapons) and you'll tear anything lying on its stomach to shreds.

Opportunity costs.  The Soviet units wiggling past an MG will take damage, and a few will be wiped out entirely.  However, not all of them will be destroyed unless the opponent is willing to focus all of his efforts toward doing so.  That, I imagine, would slow down most efforts to tech up, etc.  A pioneer busy mowing down Reds is not, say, capping a point or building a Krieg Barracks.

Everybody,

I think we're losing sight of what I'm suggesting here.  I don't want to get rid of the ability to break suppression!  I like having it around!  I simply want to make breaking suppression a T2 ability, not something that comes right out of the box.  The few critical minutes of stability brought about by MGs bring balance back to the early game, a balance that, I feel, exists already throughout most of the later stages.  Just as the Wehr can bring out mortars to counter a stubborn MG nest, so too can the Soviets bring out a Command Squad to render a MG's suppression useless.

If you haven't noticed, conscripts aren't tommies.  They take a shit ton of damage from MGs because they have very weak armor.  They will be DEAD before they are pinned or can crawl away even without extra help with the MG.  Conscripts are NOT rifles and cannot function in the same flanking manor.  They have significantly less firepower and no ability to retreat.  They also cannot crawl through an MG like tommies.  Removing heroic charge gives wehr the ability to win in the first four minutes of the game with even the slightest of micro and MG placement.

Stan wrote:
Xeno,

Yes, that IS my idea of balance!  You got that right on the button.  The mechanic that allows units to crawl away from suppressing units after a short time still works with our lowly conscripts. 

Stan I appreciate the effort you put into your research but I cannot agree with your findings at all. Soviets do not have retreat. That is a HUGE disadvantage versus all other factions infantry which can just bail when things too hot to handle and avoid big losses (an MG getting swamped for example). Literally the soviets must rely on the charge command to break suppression or it's just pure carnage. Crawling out takes a long time, and if there is any axis infantry on standby at the time it will just be a pure massacre if the soviets cannot break suppression. The soviet must wisely use the charge ability. It's an interesting part of the game and actually the best in terms of soviet balance.

One volks squad in cover can easily hold off two conscript squads to cover MG flanks. All it takes is for Wehr to place MGs on the perimeter of your base, with some volks and a bike (bikes are amazing against Soviets, they tear up Ingenery since they can't retreat). Boom, your bottled up in your base until you get T2 because you have NOTHING to push out with. You can't use conscripts as MG bait cause they die insanely fast from MG fire. Even if you manage to get a squad or two, one volks squad (MP40s or not) can easily cover the MG squad.

The reason the US and Brits can effectively flank MGs is unit survivability. They can get up close, and do decent damage while being attacked by a volks or pioneer squad. They may lose a couple units, but retreating will prevent heavy loses.

I also disagree with the statement that Wehr can't handle US early game. The only thing that slows Wehr down is the lower cap rate Volksgrenadiers have compared to rifles. Volks do more damage than one rifle squad at long range, and Volks can place sandbags. Use your volks wisely against rifles and you should be fine early game at holding territory.

Hy all.

This is my first post in this place,and first of all i want to congratulate the team for this wonderful mod.

My suggestions :

1-T-90 to be able to be recruited in support building,with 300MP and 10 fuel,and to be unable to do AA task,with good suppression and rapid firepower but low accuracy at long range.

2-Propaganda doctrine to be able to build AA bunker(possible command post),and other doctrine to recruit cheap but weak truck with AA machine-gun,but just for this task,having low accuracy against infantry.

3-IS-2 to have dangerous machine gun against infantry at close range,with rate of fire increased(is very low now;almost like the gun),but low accuracy at long range...also to be able to use his machine gun from the rear,because he don't do that.

4-USSSR to be able to secure limited resource points with watch towers(maximum number can be decided);good for long range sight but with low health,and having enough space just for one unit of conscripts.Can be built just by engineers.

5-Command points to be doubled for all factions(minimum) for much more options in strategy

6-Russians to be able to make one upgrade in the late period,for increasing maximum number of soldiers in his army.

7-Conscripts to have cost for upgrade 50 mun/50 fuel,because they use petrol bottles.

8-No units to be called off map,because with this ability,tide of battle can be turned.Even if the player has lost recruitment buildings,but have many resource,can call off map units and send a major counter attack against enemy base,and defeating them.I managed to do this thing against AI in a desperate situation with almost certain defeat...but,i managed to gain an not even dreamed victory due to this off map units.OR to be associated with one building,and if that building is destroyed,to be gone the possibility for calling them off map.

9-Propaganda doctrine to have much more propagandistic options,and other doctrine none of them...because urban assault have one now...

10-All buildings including bunkers to be very resistant against tank attacks,and only true efficient weapon for destroying them to be artillery.

11-Mortars to do low damage against fortifications and buildings(excepting maybe 120mm,but even he to need long time)

12-Obstacle against tanks to be very very hard to be destroyed,without concentrated artillery fire or powerful explosives from specialized units.

13-All buildings to give perfect cover for infantry against artillery,tanks and mortars,and only snipers,flamethrowers and grenades to be true effective weapons in this situation.

14-All barbed wire to damage wheels,slowing vehicles until they get repair.

15-All AT guns to shoot further than mortars.

16-All AT guns(even from tanks) to have very small explosion range,because are designed to pierce the armors in small area/point,and not to explode at the surface like explosive shells.AP shells direct the explosion in the ground with forward direction(ground),making them useless against infantry.

17-Few tanks to be able to upgrade shells,using AP and explosive shells,and only true effective weapons against infantry for they to be their machine gun and high explosive shells.

18-Conscripts to have price 150,and engineers  200 or even 300,but engineers to be much more healthy.

19-Russian engineers to have much more abilities for supporting units but with less combat skill than others. 

20-All AT weapons used by infantry,to be unable to pierce up to medium frontal armor from tanks.Even against medium tanks,they must have big difficulty in destroying them,if they are not two against one,for hitting the tank from the side(medium/low damage),and from the back great damage to all tanks,with chance of destroying the engine to be 100%.

21-Engineers from USSR to be able to plant specialized mines against tanks or infantry.Mines used against infantry,having much lower cost.

22-All three Russian doctrine to be redone.

a)Propaganda doctrine to give activated abilities and new skills for units,like inspire,making them harder to kill if loose soldiers,becoming much dangerous when loose soldiers from squad,sprint,bonus in friendly territory...etc.(90% from total points).Also as i suggested,can build AA bunker,much powerful fixed guns,trenches, and recruiting katyusha.

b) Urban doctrine to give hide/ambush ability for few units and urban fighting equipment upgrade,like smoke,grenade(explosive/incendiary/AT),better weapons,helmets/vest,flamethrowers,increased bonus in cover,building sand bags,recruiting cheap light and fast moving/shooting mortars,better snipers..etc
Also this doctrine can allow two upgrades for grenade>offensive to be thrown much further and accurate,with low area explosion,and defensive/fragmetation grenade with shorter range and much more devastating.

c) Breakthrough to give just upgrades for tanks,new tank models and self propelled artillery.

No Russian unit to have abilities for units from the start like heroic charge,grenade,flamethrower,smoke...etc..they can come just from doctrine with command points in a clear direction.
Upgrades from building to unlock new units for production,give weapons for conscripts and very few for others,increase population cap,unlock armored car and tank factory...etc...

All doctrine can lower the cost for buildings/fortifications,infantry,tanks...depending by the doctrine.

Thx for reading,and sorry if this post sound more like a general suggestion.

:)

Last edited January 28, 2010 at 12:31 PM by PSIHOPAT

sadly i didnt bother going through these walls of text, but judging by the title of this thread:

dude, you're one patch too late with your suggestions, srsly...

got a very good 2on2 mate and we havent lost any game to sovjets since the last patch, although playing about 5-8 games a day

anyone having issues with sovjet early game either cant find their "mg-42 weapon crew"-button or should get some skill...

If you don't bother to read,than is more wise to not make comments.

Hey, everybody.

Thanks for all the great feedback so far.  I'm glad we can discuss this like gents (and ladies?).

I'm beginning to think, as I play this mod more and more, that my original idea isn't so great after all.  Yeah, its happening, I'm starting to agree with my opponents.

I'm noticing, just as my opponents have predicted, that on larger team games, the Soviets lose all their early-game usefulness, and become a detraction from the team without their Command Squad.

The idea of this alteration was, originally, to bring the Soviet early game down to a brutal game of delay tactics, using the lives of your conscripts as a way to purchase time.  I never expected conscripts to actually DO anything other than die en masse under the guns of the Germans.  However, the reality is that this happens anyway, even with that super-sexy Command Squad out there.

So, I still assert that moving the ability to break suppression to T2 won't break the game, but I do understand that it would remove the Soviets ability to be useful early game in a team match, and that's no fun at all.

You win guys!

Oh there is a MG covering that road omg what do I do I don't have my fire up ability to run behind it! OMGWTFBBQ!!



Flank it... or if it is in a corner covering a point, attack from multiple directions instead of blobbing... IT'S NOT HARD!

???

really ?

command squad like they said is there only suppression and early game is fine Soviets are extremely balanced they just need some bug issues fixed. early game lacks for their sucky late game.

You must be on crack or something to think the Soviet late game is sucky... It is on par with the german late game and two good teams will have a really good game... if the russians didn't cap the entire freakin map in the first 5 minutes  :-\

Well i play 1v1 so 2v2 is really lame to me, i really don't care for 2v2 players. As ignorant as that sounds.

ViserExciser wrote:
As ignorant as that sounds.

well it does  ;D nobody wants EF just balanced for 1on1

lol

You guys are posting on something they talked about 4 mouths ago!

Seeme wrote:
You guys are posting on something they talked about 4 mouths ago!

You could say that after almost two months he answered :P.