Early Game Balance - By Force

Hey guys, thanks again for putting so much effort into making this amazing mod.

I’ve been doing some intensive testing with my friends from the moment EF was released and we do have some thoughts on balance. Feel free to completely ignore us :) but we’ve given it a lot of thought and we have experience in this field. (I personally have been employed for the last 7 years as a software tester) and games are huge hobby for me.

As I stated before we understand the difficulties with balancing, especially with getting the balance right between early and end game strength. We appreciate the fact that the overall dynamic of the game has remained the same in the sense that if the Axis powers are able bring their vetted heavy tanks into the game it pretty much seals the deal for them. So we don’t really see too many issues for Russians endgame. Our only concern is the very beginning. We’ve been able to narrow down the problems to the Command Squad and the capture speed of conscripts. We understand the need for cheap units that can be built fast as any unsuccessful attack by the Russians in middle or end game can result in the entire destruction of their infantry. (Which incidentally is a concept we love!).

We perceive the Russians can cover too much ground too early, conscripts capture a little too fast and are then able group together for a massive push. We believe the Wehrmacht suffer the most because of this, especially since the Command Squad can defeat Volks 1v1. The strike is also very powerful, but we understand the need for it to be able to bring down a building  to ensure that machine guns are taken out. We believe a slight adjustment to the area of effect is in order as it’ll have the same effectiveness against machine gun crews without having to wipe out an entire area (this can be very costly to the PE especially). We think also that the command squad should have fewer troops and not be as strong, therefore used as a unit kept behind the conscripts specifically for the strike, rather than a front line unit which is very powerful early game.

We acknowledge that machine gun crews can be devastating to Russians, but we believe their numbers should allow for effective flanking maneuvers. This may sound like rather advanced play, but if people haven’t got the concept of flanking by now they never will.

So our recommendations for early balance are as follows:

- Smaller radius of destruction on Command Squad strike.

- The Command Squad to be reduced in size in strength and used as a support unit rather than front line attackers.

- A slight reduction to the capture speed of conscripts.

I hope these suggestions are taken in the spirit in which they were offered. We love this game and this mod and hope to see lots of people playing it for many years. We believe that in order to help facilitate this any bugs or balancing issues that can be ironed out early will be invaluable.

Thanks again guys!

Force

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 5:33 AM by ForceMultiplier

Command squad is 350mp.  Damn straight it should kill volks 1v1.  Agree about the attack radius of the strike.

The problem is that they slaughter Volks...

So what is Wehrmacht supposed to do about the command squad? Machine Gun crew is useless and so are Volks?

It's basically an invincible early game unit..

At the very least it should be an even battle absent the strike.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 7:20 AM by ForceMultiplier

ForceMultiplier wrote:
The problem is that they slaughter Volks...

So what is Wehrmacht supposed to do about the command squad? Machine Gun crew is useless and so are Volks?

It's basically an invincible early game unit..

I do not agree. When you say the volks get "slaughtered" by the command squad are you talking about a volks squad in cover and firing at range (at which their rifles perform best)? I am not seeing this at all. I am having no dramas wehr vs soviet early game.

The command squad costs 350mp, and is limited to one squad. Considering what absolute rubbish conscripts are it needs to be good. And it really is not that flash. There is always a chance of a lucky early kill of the major in the squad too which removes all its powers.

Keep in mind the soviets have no retreat unlike the wehr. There is always a way out as wehr if you get into a situation where you can take serious losses. The soviets must rely on the commanders charge to bail them out if they get caught and suppressed. The barrage takes three minutes to be ready, and is easily dodged if seen, although setup MGs would be best advised to to retreat if targeted as unpacking and walking out is extremely risky.

Sorry but I cannot agree with your findings. Early game is actually the best balance of this faction, and an interesting battle.

While i agree with Fuhrious that the Command Squad is not overpowered, maybe an upgrade system can be added to the Command Squad if the Devs decide to take ForceMultipliers suggestions to heart.

25 or 50 munitions to upgrade a Command squad (Major and 2 Guards) to upgrade to Major and 3 guards?

Though to be frank i agree with Fuhrious that Conscripts are absolute Rubbish and the Command Squad is the only redeeming factor in the first five minutes, without that the Conscripts could be crushed by Volkspam or bikes in the early game.

2 bikes 1 MG and a volks eat 3 conscripts and 1 command squad if microed properly

I like the light arty of the Command Squad to have such a wide radius, but I agree with and support completely the idea of reducing the capping speed on Russian early units. They already have brought out a dozen units by the time the Wehr player has reached the half of the map in a 2v2. They don´t need the extra capping speed.

Quote2 bikes 1 MG and a volks eat 3 conscripts and 1 command squad if microed properly

Not if the russian microed well too.

I agree, and lets face it even if the Russians lose some conscripts they can replace and bring them up faster.

They can move a squad off to go around capturing points while the Axis have to dedicate some more expensive and slow to prevent that/re-cap back.

The fact of the matter is it takes less effort and less micro to get a good early game result from Russians than it does for the Axis. With two players of equal skill the Russians will win most of the time.

Quotelets face it even if the Russians lose some conscripts they can replace and bring them up faster.

They cant be retreated so they usually die when they get in over their heads.  200MP starts to add up quickly and reinforcing 5 or 6 members of one squad is over 100mp.  Pios are more expensive for recap?

Wehr early game has always been micro intensive against ANY faction.  Only balances best in terms of micro against US rifles.

xenotype wrote:
Command squad is 350mp.  Damn straight it should kill volks 1v1.  Agree about the attack radius of the strike.

the brittish commander costs what? 250 manpower and 15 fuel? Does that mean he should beat volks?. The command squad should cost that much because of the abilities it comes with, Like... free arty... no penalty rush and insane view range with the binocs.

Why not keep the survivability and remove some of offensive power of what I see as a "support squad". Change one of the guards to carry a red banner. That way, it feels a bit more like a command squad, keeps current hitpoints, but loses that added rifle's firepower. Not that I feel the command squad is much of a problem anyway.

1 volks behind green cover or in a stone building hurt it bad

currently finding the russian command squad WAYY too resiliant.  It's a real problem against my early PE(which may say something about me), but it just hardly takes any damage to focus fire at all.  I know he can't retreat, but he doesn't have to.  He can move out of harms way fast, whenever he needs to, and nothing can chase him down.  I was watching one of the 2v2 posts, and a command squad, under mg fire, fully uncapped and capped a point, while a volks and pio sat on top of it, then fired up with its last two men, and got away scott free. 

Maybe this is how it needs to scale to be effective mid game, but early game it seems too hard to kill.  I know its an expensive unit, but it's not irreplaceable for a faction that currently captures 2/3's  of any given map with ease.

I would suggest a modest reduction in hit-points, which could be improved when the player unlocks the ability to drop artillery(this is also insanely powerful, and it can be so far away from the drop-which is why I suggest the upgrade).  It is not the same as lt or captain artillery because they risk dying, to say nothing of the munitions cost.  A whole command squad doesn't.)

Currently PE infantry needs to get very close to conscripts to actually kill any of them, but getting close to a blob with a command squad is certain death, because it does so much damage at close range.  I can live with that, but it should be at least possible, with focus firing at close range to kill it, at much cost.

EDITED TO ADD:

another solution for the artillery could be putting it on the same timer as fire-up...that way you couldn't fire up through enemy fire, drop artillery and run.

Last edited January 30, 2010 at 8:15 PM by Joshua9