Mistake with light tanks T-70 and T-90

Hi guys!

QuoteT-70
The lightest of our armour, it is good for early reconnaissance and skirmishes. Do not rely on it for too long though, as its 45mm gun is not the biggest.

1.It was a last large-serial light tank, with the most powerfull of all light caliber guns - 45mm 20-K gun, wich was good count even to side armor of medium tanks.
This tank was widely used as a scout tank in 43-45. Also, this light tank had 7,62 DT LMG, wich is missed in EF game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-70
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2-70
Actually, it must be a counter to "Puma"

QuoteT-90
A modified version of the T-70, bearing a different main armament. It is armed with two 12.7mm DShKs, suited for anti-aircraft and anti-infantry duties.

THERE WERE NO T-90 AT ALL!!!
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T-40 had 1x12,7mm and 1,7,62mm, 722 built from dec.40 to dec.41;
T-50 had 1x45mm and 2x7,62mm, 75 built from late 41 to march.42;
T-60 had 1x20mm and 1x7,62mm, 5920 built from aug.41 to febr.43;
T-70 had 1x45mm and 1x7,62mm, 8231 built from jan42 to jun43;
T-80 had 1x45mm and 2x7,62mm, only ~80 built from jan.43 to sept.43.

******* Underline:
1. T-90 must be deleted from game. There were no such a tank or even a tank with simular weapons (2 x 12mm HMG)
2. T-70 must get back his "missed" 7,62mm LMG and be counter to Puma
3. BA-64 could be added to game, and with 1x7,62 LMG be a cound to Sd.Kfz.222 and Halftrack. Also, if it is critical to have "AA tank" - T-60 cloud be added (easy reworked from "T-90"), with 20mm "tank variant of aviation ShVAK gun" could count Hs-129 of PE.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 11:17 PM by Artillerist

T-90 was a prototype, so you are right, it wasn't used in the war.

http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Files/Allies/Allies/1-Vehicles/USSR/1-LightTanks/T-70/T-70.htm#T90

But SOMETHING had to fill the AA role.

EDIT: you are right about the gun and the mg of the T-70, too. Perhaps for balance?

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM by Shadowmetroid

Shadowmetroid wrote:
But SOMETHING had to fill the AA role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-37

It would be enough to shot down Hs129B-3 of PE :)

True, but even that tank had seen only 75 built.

SU-37-I (SU-11): http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/2-USSR/06-SPG/SU-11/SU-11.htm

(Nice little drawing)

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 11:00 PM by Shadowmetroid

Yep.
You know, Soviet Army almost had no special AA tank all through the War...
Mey be it is possible INGAME to stay AWAY from AA tank?

Not the best idea. The T-90 is the Red Army's Ostwind. The anti-blob tank. Taking it away may lead to some unforseen consequences. Especially when Panzer Elite have a whole new reason to use Luftwaffe.

PE had the only "flying" thing - Hs129, wich makes 3-4 passes and flyes away.
PE had no airborn e.t.c. like Americans...

Man - T-90 DID NEVER EXIST! There must be other way, if "AA thing" must be added... Alloy T-70 or BA-64 or may be T-60 (with 20mm and LMG) shoot on a/c...

And dont forget about LMG on T-70, wich supposed to be light anti-infantry tank, but it could do nothing - Puma and Ostwind get 1 shot - 1 killed soldier, T-70 - not.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 11:12 PM by Artillerist

http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Files/Allies/Allies/1-Vehicles/USSR/1-LightTanks/T-70/T-70.htm

Again, probably for balancing, but you are right. Hopefully a Dev can explain...?

It's an interesting unit and Eastern Front isn't a documentary. Nuff said.

Ah, so for aesthetics, then. No worries Artillerist, there will be an Eastern Front Realism Mod sooner or later.

As for the T-70 having no MG?

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 11:28 PM by Shadowmetroid

WartyX wrote:
...Eastern Front isn't a documentary. Nuff said.

:) I cant argue against this logic :) Why Soviets have no "Death Star"? ;)

Artillerist wrote:

WartyX wrote:
...Eastern Front isn't a documentary. Nuff said.

:) I cant argue against this logic :) Why Soviets have no "Death Star"? ;)

Why Soviets have no Vacuum Imploder, LOL!

Remove T-90? Are you nuts? Best Soviet unit, and I hope I don`t need to mention there were only 4 (four) Sherman Crocodile tanks build EVER, witch didn`t stop Relic "Mass Produce" it for US faction. T-70 could get some improvement, dough.

im honostly in love with the T-90, i never want to see it removed.

Not the only one comrade :)))))

I've been saying the T-90 should be removed/turned into a reward unit since it was included, I even quickly re-made and re-skinned the T-90 into a T-60 to replace it.



It would be a good infantry shredder, similar to a 20mm Puma.

Though if it was replaced by the 20mm HumanLiquifier in Diablos post, i wouldnt mind so much >.>

Capt. wrote:
Remove T-90? Are you nuts? Best Soviet unit, and I hope I don`t need to mention there were only 4 (four) Sherman Crocodile tanks build EVER, witch didn`t stop Relic "Mass Produce" it for US faction. T-70 could get some improvement, dough.

Relic uses the M4A3R3 as the "Crocodile", although the Crocodile was used on the Pacific theater, and the M4A3R3 on the European theater.  Obviously, this is due to naming conventions only.

There were more than 4 M4A3R3s produced.

BurroDiablo wrote:
I've been saying the T-90 should be removed/turned into a reward unit since it was included, I even quickly re-made and re-skinned the T-90 into a T-60 to replace it.

It would be a good infantry shredder, similar to a 20mm Puma.

Don't remove T-90...If you are going to, make it a reward unit!

BurroDiablo - EXELLENT!!! Great !!!

Shadow - take it easy, T-60 is almost the same as T-90.

T-60 - 1x20mm and 1x7,62mm
T-90 - 2x12,7mm.

FAIR :)
http://www.booksgid.com/hardware/1210-kamufljazh-tankov-krasnojj-armii-1930.html

Last edited January 25, 2010 at 9:03 AM by Artillerist

It's not that it's the same, dude, it's just awesome :D

Zenith tank Т-90 existed.
In WWII were created about 20 prototypes. They had an open turret. Why do we have it in the game and why it have a closed turret - I do not know.

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Post Merge: [time]Пнд 25 Янв 2010 03:15:37[/time]

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508PIR wrote:
Relic uses the M4A3R3 as the "Crocodile", although the Crocodile was used on the Pacific theater, and the M4A3R3 on the European theater.  Obviously, this is due to naming conventions only.
There were more than 4 M4A3R3s produced.

This stereotype is misleading. Crocodiles were in Normandy.

Flame Shermans:

Quote

• M4A3R3 Zippo: Sherman tank used during Operation Overlord (1944) and in the Battle of Iwo Jima (1945)


• M4 Crocodile: four M4 tanks converted by British for US 2nd Armored Division in NW Europe with the same armored fuel trailer as used on Churchill but the fuel line went over the hull.


• Sherman Badger: Canada's replacement of its Ram Badger, the Sherman Badger was a turretless M4A2 HVSS Sherman with Wasp IIC flamethrower in place of hull machine gun, developed sometime from 1945 to 1949. The 150 gallons at 250 psi was effective to 125 yards, with elevation of +30 to -10 degrees and traverse of 30 degrees left and 23 degrees right. This inspired the US T68.

As you see: there were only 4 Crocodiles only in Europe, but Zippos existed and were in Europe and on Pacific.

But yes, in the game we have Zippos.

Last edited January 25, 2010 at 11:33 AM by UeArtemis

Quotewhy it have a closed turret

Same reason most things have to be close turreted... getting an animated man to hide inside it and fire is just a time consuming job that we could do without. If a BA-64 was ever added, that would have to be closed turreted too, same with the SU-76 (which thankfully came with a closed turret version, albeit, less popular since a direct hit from a Panzerfaust could kill the crew more easily)

And how about tents on turrets? This would solve the problem. Or can we copy animations from existing units?

Last edited January 25, 2010 at 12:19 PM by UeArtemis

UeArtemis wrote:
Or can we copy animations from existing units?

Yep, it could be possibly taken from Marder.

508PIR wrote:
Relic uses the M4A3R3 as the "Crocodile", although the Crocodile was used on the Pacific theater, and the M4A3R3 on the European theater.  Obviously, this is due to naming conventions only.
There were more than 4 M4A3R3s produced.

True, but as UeArtemis said..but non the less, even if we take Zippo varient, I don`t think there were more then a 100 produced, mostly for Pacific too, and T-90 might not be the most numerous Soviet AA/AI tank, but many people would hate to loose it (including me), as for the tent - it would be like copying SdKfz 222, really don`t see why so many hate towards this cute little unit with twin 12.7mm machine guns :))))))

Man, almost nothing will change, T-60 is almost the same (but fromduced in several thousands) and have 20mm cannon (with 600 rpm fire rate) and 7,62 LMG... It will stay "little cute scout tank" :)

Replacing T90 (And making it a reward unit) with the
T60 has definitively got my vote :)

... Not sure about 600 rpm 20mm gun though, lol

Maybe more similar to PE's armored car?

Loupblanc wrote:
... Not sure about 600 rpm 20mm gun though, lol

Maybe more similar to PE's armored car?

Actually, T-60 is a "Soviet Pz.II". Both had aviation 20mm cannon with high fore rate, and LMG in turm.

We should replace the T-70 and T-90 with the BA-64 and T-60!

I like the T-90. It is the closest thing Sovs have to a machinegun. And it is mobile, too...

nbeerbower wrote:
We should replace the T-70 and T-90 with the BA-64 and T-60!

If u do that, make the former reward units plz... Some things are too hard to let go of.  ;D

I think these light tanks are kinda out of character compared to  the rest of the mod. Alot of the mod seems to focuses on the early war period, for example no starting units because "the Russians were cough off guard" and half strength conscript squads needing to be upgraded to full rifles because of supply problems, etc etc.

I believe that both tanks should be replaced outright. The T-70 with say a T-26 (10,300 built between 1931-1945) or one of the BT series of tanks (8000+ built between 1932 -1945). These tanks, though older were produced in more numbers then the T-70, served longer then the T-70 and fit the same role.

As for the T-90, well its been said before that it never saw combat, and its only in game as an anti-aircraft vehicle. Which to be honest is kinda silly. From what I recall aircraft attacks were not too effective or really used that often by the German factions in game and well, the soviets didn't have an AA-tank in service. The axis air attacks are few and far between, I believe a stationary AA emplacement would be better suited in game. As for the T-90 the primary use of the tank in game is as a mobile pillbox. So in that case, I believe it should be replaced with one of the multitude of armored cars that the soviets fielded. Like an FAI armored car, or a BA-20 or even a BA-1.

Quote and its only in game as an anti-aircraft vehicle. Which to be honest is kinda silly.

I'm assuming you never bought the American M3 Halftrack upgrade?

Your right to assume that, I never have. In fact, I'm bold enough to say I have never had to use any antiaircraft weapons against German air strikes in the entire time I have owned and played this game.

The only faction I have ever had to worry about air-strike wise was the Airborn with there damn strafing runs. And in that case, yes, I have spammed German AA.


Though, you took my statement out of context. I described how the T-90 was put in game as an anti-aircraft vehicle, and put there because the soviets "needed" one, but in reality is just used as a mobile pillbox. Which again, should be replaced by an armored car.

How was that out of context? Your message was that having it there simply for the AA was silly, which it is not.

I enjoy the t-90 and would not want it replaced by an armored car. Perhaps a reward unit, but until then, your stuck with the t-90 unless you make your own mod

Woah calm down! I'm fine with the T-70 and T-90, in fact I use the T-90 sometimes. I just would prefer to see something else there.

IMO T70 should be replaced with BA10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA-10



Same gun as T70, 2 MG's. Fast but not as much armor. Dont replace T70 with BA64 cause BA64 had no cannon, only MG.

and im all for with T90 replaced with T60.

Or maybe BT7. BT7 was also fast with 45mm gun. and BT7A upgrade with upgrades it with 76mm howister, making it fast support artillery  ;D


T26 is too old imo..although it was used quite a bit.

Last edited January 26, 2010 at 3:31 AM by guynumber7

The BT series and the T-26 went into service a year apart...

Almost all BT-2/3/5/7 were lost in 41, as for T-26's, so take it amay from them.

Early BA's (like BA-10) were stopped in producing already in summer 41, because of uselessness in war conditions.

The only "scout armed car" was widely used in 42-45 is BA-64 (Sd.Kz.222 analogue in game).
The main light tanks was widely built and used - T-60 and T-70 ("Puma", Hotchkiss, T-17, Stewart analogue in game).