88 FLak cannon Vs ISU 152 tank hunter. ISU two short kills 88

This is what happend. full health 88 cannon. Vs ISU tank hunter,

Tank hunter fired one short, taking 90% health of 88 flak cannon. 88 fired at ISU, took less then 10% off.

second short extreamly accurate of ISU , Dead 88 flak cannon.  dose this make the 88 flak cannon competly useless? .

you decide

I think the flak cannon has problems with any tank that gets close to it, you're supposed to spot for your Flak cannon.

Soul.j

seriously, stop calling it a tank hunter, it was a heavy mobile howitzer, will you never understand this?!

it's the same when i call the Puma a tank destroyer, even though it was only an armored reconnaissance vehicle...

Any immobile decrewable AT should have only a small incoming accuracy from any tank. Flak88 is a specialized Antitank gun (in the game), so brits, us and russians should use inf to decrew them and not a tank.

besides that the 88 needed 9 shots the last time i checked it. NINE!!! (my friend put the isu to attack ground)

^ Just another reason the 152 is broken.

The health needs a SIRIOUS nerf in comparison to the 88. If we were going by realism, then yes, the 152 WOULD kill the 88 in one or two shots, but the 88 would have killed the 152 a dozen times before it was even in range.

doomlord52 wrote:
^ Just another reason the 152 is broken.

The health needs a SIRIOUS nerf in comparison to the 88. If we were going by realism, then yes, the 152 WOULD kill the 88 in one or two shots, but the 88 would have killed the 152 a dozen times before it was even in range.

the ISU wasent even very heavily armored. a 90mm sloped plate would by NO means deflect 88's. i am consufsed why the game deisgners gave it more armor then the KT.


well, i suppose the Jadgpanther only has an 80mm sloped plate, yet it has MORE armor then the KT.

nope it has less.

Venoxxis wrote:
nope it has less.

If the Jagd goes tripple-defensive vet, it has like 320hp more. (cool fact).

Yea, regardless of the tank, the soviets didnt really have anything that wouldnt get eaten by the 88 or KWK 43 L/71. Just looking at the RL stats, the KT could take out an IS2 at around 1000m, while the IS2 would need to be at around 500m~ (1000m~ if it hits the lower front hull).

BlackDahliaMurder wrote:
Soul.j

seriously, stop calling it a tank hunter, it was a heavy mobile howitzer, will you never understand this?!

it's the same when i call the Puma a tank destroyer, even though it was only an armored reconnaissance vehicle...

First off, this is entirely irrelevant.

Second, the Russians themselves called it the "Animal killer" because it kills panthers, tigers, and elefants, which gives his label more than a good deal of credence.

Third, in this game the thing is ridiculously effective at destroying tanks to the point that it vastly overshadows the su-100 which is the "real" tank hunter.

Edit: back on topic, yes the ISU 152 is way too good against the 88. Really though, it's just way too good against EVERYTHING. The gun is far too powerful for this scale of game and its health and armor are frankly obscene. Worst part is, it's treated as a churchill rather than as a king tiger/jagdpanther or even a tiger as far as recallability goes: forget one time call in, you can have MULTIPLE ONES OUT AT THE SAME TIME!!!

Last edited January 23, 2010 at 10:40 PM by w00tm0ng3r

Last I checked you can call in 3 ISU-152s at one time before it told me action unavailable.

Last time i checked american at guns can take out a 88 in two hits aswell..88s are pointless and shouldnt even be used :|

ISU armour and stuff is fine as is, it's an end Doctrine unit, of course it has to be tough. It sucks as an offensive weapon and is very easy to circle strafe, use it in support of other units to kick the crap out of Tanks. It could be reclassified as a mobile howitzer with an AP shell ability, but we already have a howitzer Tank (the KV-2)... 2 doctrinal self propelled Howitzers just seems like a waste.

The ISU is getting a Tiger like limit of 1 in the patch (I think). Again, this was another balance issue I pointed out to our ex-lead developer a few days before release and it was ignored.

QuoteLast time i checked american at guns can take out a 88 in two hits aswell..88s are pointless and shouldnt even be used :|

Yes in two hits! but the isu kills it in 2 shots. thats a difference. An ATgun didn't always hit it and can be killed by mortar, snipers and if unprotected by pios.

But if an 88 can't kill the ISU what do you have to protect the 88?

well my 88 wasnt decrewed, i had infantry, mgs and bunker protecting, it . 2 shots from that ... dead.

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I know its not an tank hunter...
i know the history for it. but in this game right now is beyoned and tank hunter capablity.
its bigger better tank then a tiger, and its got no limits to it.
needs to be fixed..
which they said to fixed yestoday? with a patch, the patch still didnt come out..

also .. it should not be so accurate against AT guns.. ive never seen any Assult tank so accurate against AT guns, let along killing an Maned 88 cannon with 2 shots.

BlackDahliaMurder wrote:
Soul.j

seriously, stop calling it a tank hunter, it was a heavy mobile howitzer, will you never understand this?!

it's the same when i call the Puma a tank destroyer, even though it was only an armored reconnaissance vehicle...

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Love this mod, but love the balance even more.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 5:40 AM by Soul.j

BlackDahliaMurder wrote:
Soul.j

seriously, stop calling it a tank hunter, it was a heavy mobile howitzer, will you never understand this?!

it's the same when i call the Puma a tank destroyer, even though it was only an armored reconnaissance vehicle...

that mobile howitzer almost oneshot stuhs or stugs
it take a full health stug/stuh to 5%

I played a game the other day against a Russian Tank whore (surprised? I was... I expected Infantry) He built nothing but T34s and the ISU-152 (which even though the Russians had it classified as a Mobile Heavy Mortar they decided it worked better as a Tank Hunter because of the ability to kill the cats at range) I had two 88s up when I saw his force and they where supported by 3 PaKs and some G43 squads (Which are really nasty against Russian Inf) those two 88s had at least 6 Heavy Vehicle Kills by time the rush was over... INCLUDING the 152 which died right away because I knew how deadly they are so I focused fire on it with everything. This guy dropped shortly after because I defeated his "Game Ending Tank Rush" as he called it when it was on the way  :-\

one short a stuh to 5% amour?
lol..
errrrr a king tiger wouldnt be able to do that to an sherman!? and if it dose..
i would call that absolute Op...

its a fucking joke.

helloooo, KT 500MP, ISU-152 1000, bunker is faster then ISU-152, 15 sec reload+another 5 to aim, every unit makes damage on it (haven`t seen a bounce yet) Any cupola tank can kill it 1on1 by simple micro, and you say it`s OP? Ok, limit the number to 1, but everything else is a simple bitch crying "I wont my tanks to be the best - why can`t I bully Russians like Yaaank`s..." rally, get over it and start using your heads for once, THERE IS NO SOVIET UNIT THAT IS OP - JUST AXIS WHO ARE LAAZZZY.

Last edited January 26, 2010 at 4:15 PM by Capt. Malashenko

Soul.j wrote:
one short a stuh to 5% amour?
lol..
errrrr a king tiger wouldnt be able to do that to an sherman!? and if it dose..
i would call that absolute Op...

its a fucking joke.

same to stugs

its the ridiculess amount of 300dmg (sherman does 87.5) on that beast

stuh and stug have just 300HP if there wasnt the rule that a tank didnt go to wreck in green health it would oneshot stugs and stuhs

moonblood wrote:
stuh and stug have just 300HP if there wasnt the rule that a tank didnt go to wreck in green health it would oneshot stugs and stuhs

And you would actualy send a StuH or even a single StuG against Animal Killer? btw, ISU doesn`t make full damage on any vehicles, that`s why damage tables exist.

Capt. wrote:
And you would actualy send a StuH or even a single StuG against Animal Killer? btw, ISU doesn`t make full damage on any vehicles, that`s why damage tables exist.

since it shoots over half the map like fireflys its not difficult to get hit by isu152 from FOW

and no damage modifier against stug/stuh armor is 1 means the 300 dmg is untouched

and dont even try to tell me something about coh tables

Last edited January 26, 2010 at 4:26 PM by moonblood

Really?
Well it may be 1, but it`s not indestructible, and speed & reload make up for the range, or Marders and PaK`s would tear it to peaces.
...strange, I would swear that damage multiplier wasn`t 1 ... ohh well no one is perfect.

Imo its the KV2 that needs to be buffed. for an end doctrine unit its slow, bad armor, gun not much better then StuH with bad range, among other things.

ISU>heavy german armor.

Use/paks/gwagon/marder/schrecks and its dead.

Its 1000mp, thats right, MORE than KT/tiger/jagd to get out.  SAME as double PE panthers which beat it handily with micro.

Just dont throw KTs/stugs against it and expect them to win.  And why the fuck did you have a stuh anywhere near it?

Stop bitching and learn to counter.

xenotype wrote:
ISU>heavy german armor.

Use/paks/gwagon/marder/schrecks and its dead.

Its 1000mp, thats right, MORE than KT/tiger/jagd to get out.  SAME as double PE panthers which beat it handily with micro.

Just dont throw KTs/stugs against it and expect them to win.  And why the fuck did you have a stuh anywhere near it?

Stop bitching and learn to counter.

+1

If your complaining about the isu being op..I bet you have never used it..Its very very slow, the reload time is awful and you can circle strafe it like no tomorrow

I saw one killed by a Tetrarch! I lol'd when I saw that :P

guynumber7 wrote:
Imo its the KV2 that needs to be buffed. for an end doctrine unit its slow, bad armor, gun not much better then StuH with bad range, among other things.

Not better than the StuH XD? What are you trying to kill, infantry?

Shaq wrote:
If your complaining about the isu being op..I bet you have never used it..Its very very slow, the reload time is awful and you can circle strafe it like no tomorrow

Indeed.
I've only seen it used in 4v4 and whenever I see one it usually just feels like it's another 1000 manpower to take away from the enemy. Mostly because people seem to think it can do any sort of damage against tanks on it's own.

Another problem besides the slow reload, and the slow turning speed, seems to be the time it takes for it to fire after it's layed it's sight on the enemy. It's almost like you could circle strafe it with a Marder.

If it's gonna be effective at all you need to guard it with tanks and overwatch it with AT guns so that you cannot circle strafe it.

Shaq wrote:
If your complaining about the isu being op..I bet you have never used it..Its very very slow, the reload time is awful and you can circle strafe it like no tomorrow

You can only circle strafe it if you play a noob who charges it unsupported with no brains to back it up while shooting. 

If you play a decent player who supports that thing with another tank, even if you have the same skill level as him, you're screwed...there's no way you can circle strafe it if it has support, and there's no way you can win against it head-on.

I really doubt the people who are saying other Axis players "are noob and need to find more ways to cope" are that good themselves.  In fact, I'm willing to bet that a lot of them get their asses handed to them in vCoH, and are trying to make EF USSR their new noob haven.

imo atm, not much needs fixing after the last patch...just nerf the tanks and the mortar damage a tiny bit more and that's it.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 5:57 AM by Chancellor

Quotejust nerf the tanks

Yeah right, I bet you are bitching about the IS2 also.  If the tanks are nerfed more, wehr armor will be hands down better.  Not the point of the faction, and not historical either.

You are forgetting that Soviet tanks come in much greater numbers.  :o

I'm not saying nerf it a lot, just a tiny bit.  IMO the balance is already close to perfect as it is with the current patch.

guynumber7 wrote:
the ISU wasent even very heavily armored. a 90mm sloped plate would by NO means deflect 88's. i am consufsed why the game deisgners gave it more armor then the KT.

check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-152
The ISU-152 was developed further during 1944. A new hull front was added and the gun shielding was increased from 60 mm to 100 mm.

The vehicle's excellent armour protection finally provided the 152mm platform with good protection from most German AT guns, allowing it to advance into the face of direct AT fire, while the huge low-velocity HE rounds were excellent at blasting open even the most heavily fortified and reinforced enemy strongpoints.

The ISU-152 could also operate as an effective ersatz heavy tank destroyer. Though it was not designed for the role, the vehicle inherited the nickname Zveroboy ("animal killer") from its predecessor the SU-152 for its rare ability to reliably kill the heaviest German armored vehicles, the Tiger, Panther, and Elefant.

The weight of the 152mm shells made for an extremely low fire rate, only one or two shots per minute, and they were not as accurate at long range as high-velocity antitank guns, but the massive 98 lb HE charge was capable of blowing the turret completely off a Tiger from sheer blast force alone. No tank crew could expect to survive a direct impact from a 152mm round, though the chassis itself was sometimes salvageable. For anti-tank operations following the Battle of Kursk, the even-larger 102 lb. BR-540 solid-core armour-piercing round and charge was developed, with an eye towards giving the howitzer a more traditional AT capability.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM by SoccyBE

xenotype wrote:
ISU>heavy german armor.

Use/paks/gwagon/marder/schrecks and its dead.

Marders and Geschützwagen suck against the ISU because their penetration modifier lr is <0.24 that means less then every 4 shot will penetrate while the ISU 2 shots marders/gwagon

the penetration of pak38 is even more worse its 0.11256 lr
that means you can stand with your ISU in front of a pak and almost only every 10th hit will even penetrate

at least the first shoots while pak is cloacked have a bit better penetration possibility

eh and you need avg 11 penetrating hits of marder to kill the isu that means you need around 40 hits from a marder
pak is even more (14 penetrating hits so around 100-120 hits total because deflecting do 15% of the 115dmg)
at least a isu do not 2 shots paks in most cases and you can get some free cloacked hits with it

Quote
Its 1000mp, thats right, MORE than KT/tiger/jagd to get out.  SAME as double PE panthers which beat it handily with micro.

KTs and Jagd are around 1000MP too because you pay 500MP to call in and get a MP income draine for some time of avg around 500MP
and that are one time callins per game not call a new one when other is dead

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 10:37 AM by moonblood

moonblood wrote:

xenotype wrote:
ISU>heavy german armor.

Use/paks/gwagon/marder/schrecks and its dead.

Marders and Geschützwagen suck against the ISU because their penetration modifier lr is <0.24 that means less then every 4 shot will penetrate while the ISU 2 shots marders/gwagon

the penetration of pak38 is even more worse its 0.11256 lr
that means you can stand with your ISU in front of a pak and almost only every 10th hit will even penetrate

at least the first shoots while pak is cloacked have a bit better penetration possibility

eh and you need avg 11 penetrating hits of marder to kill the isu that means you need around 40 hits from a marder
pak is even more (14 penetrating hits so around 100-120 hits total because deflecting do 15% of the 115dmg)
at least a isu do not 2 shots paks in most cases and you can get some free cloacked hits with it

Quote
Its 1000mp, thats right, MORE than KT/tiger/jagd to get out.  SAME as double PE panthers which beat it handily with micro.

KTs and Jagd are around 1000MP too because you pay 500MP to call in and get a MP income draine for some time of avg around 500MP
and that are one time callins per game not call a new one when other is dead

All of you beta tester really seem to know where the balancing problems are. REALLY, something has gone completely wrong here.
The ISU is in fact to powerfull and to well armoed at the moment. there is nothing speaking against that 300dmg is just way to much for a vehicles with a that like armor and at least for that game.
And please dont try it again.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 4:49 PM by Venoxxis

well i TRUST THE BETA tester.. he beta TESTED IT... but tooo bad the last guy whos the apparently head of something didnt listen to any one lol..

SoccyBE wrote:

guynumber7 wrote:
the ISU wasent even very heavily armored. a 90mm sloped plate would by NO means deflect 88's. i am consufsed why the game deisgners gave it more armor then the KT.

check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-152
The ISU-152 was developed further during 1944. A new hull front was added and the gun shielding was increased from 60 mm to 100 mm.

The vehicle's excellent armour protection finally provided the 152mm platform with good protection from most German AT guns, allowing it to advance into the face of direct AT fire, while the huge low-velocity HE rounds were excellent at blasting open even the most heavily fortified and reinforced enemy strongpoints.

The ISU-152 could also operate as an effective ersatz heavy tank destroyer. Though it was not designed for the role, the vehicle inherited the nickname Zveroboy ("animal killer") from its predecessor the SU-152 for its rare ability to reliably kill the heaviest German armored vehicles, the Tiger, Panther, and Elefant.

The weight of the 152mm shells made for an extremely low fire rate, only one or two shots per minute, and they were not as accurate at long range as high-velocity antitank guns, but the massive 98 lb HE charge was capable of blowing the turret completely off a Tiger from sheer blast force alone. No tank crew could expect to survive a direct impact from a 152mm round, though the chassis itself was sometimes salvageable. For anti-tank operations following the Battle of Kursk, the even-larger 102 lb. BR-540 solid-core armour-piercing round and charge was developed, with an eye towards giving the howitzer a more traditional AT capability.

Not only that, but it was sloped armor (which western allies lacked). So a vertical shell hit has to go through at least 1.5x as much on sloped armor. So perhaps at least 120mm from the side view and a huge chance to deflect kinetic energy upwards. 

Soul.j wrote:
well i TRUST THE BETA tester.. he beta TESTED IT... but tooo bad the last guy whos the apparently head of something didnt listen to any one lol..

He's not the only one. It's just because I don't like to argue. I, too, feel the OP from the ISU, especially when you can have more than one with mechanic salvage with 8CP only.

Last edited January 28, 2010 at 6:07 PM by kitekaze

Jagged wrote:
[quote author=SoccyBE link=topic=2002.msg23773#msg23773 date=1264585545]
[quote author=guynumber7 link=topic=2002.msg21456#msg21456 date=1264278398]
the ISU wasent even very heavily armored. a 90mm sloped plate would by NO means deflect 88's. i am consufsed why the game deisgners gave it more armor then the KT.

Hmm i  dont remember them making the plate thicker. Oh well, i concde.

kitekaze wrote:
He's not the only one. It's just because I don't like to argue. I, too, feel the OP from the ISU, especially when you can have more than one with mechanic salvage with 8CP only.

I never really had trouble dealing with ISU-152, it`s cost will guarantee that it wont have any good support, it`s too slow to escape or even maneuver, has long reload time (but good dmg!) - all-in-all I think that`s a giant resource trap for Soviet players, that tank is good only if you have something to back him up with - otherwise... kaa-buuum

On a side note was playing a game as PE today with 2 wher allies when we ran into one isu152. 

The unsupported ISU stayed stationary in a head to head with a king tiger, while i strafed it with my 2 panthers (no vet).  It ate through the King Tiger before we got it to 1/2 health, and then proceded to turn around and kill both of my panthers. 

I sent in a second wave of panthers supported by a henschel strafing run.  It ate another panther and took half the health of the other before it was finally killed by the henschel.

Possible fixes:
1)  Lower the rear armor values all around.  Panther shells should not bounce off it almost every shoot in the rear.
2)  I dont think attack should be lowered, but fire rate should be dropped.
3)  It sould be a 1 time call in, not 1 on the field, then recall when dead.  Unless Attack and health is dropped.

Edit: looked over the vid.  didn't notice the fact that there was a at gun hitting the bak of the KT.  Still, shouldn't have killed that many panthers while surrounded.

Last edited January 29, 2010 at 11:10 PM by DaChief99

DaChief99 wrote:
On a side note was playing a game as PE today with 2 wher allies when we ran into one isu152. 


2)  I dont think attack should be lowered, but fire rate should be dropped.

Lower fire rate? you want it to fire once every minute?

QuoteThe unsupported ISU stayed stationary in a head to head with a king tiger, while i strafed it with my 2 panthers (no vet).  It ate through the King Tiger before we got it to 1/2 health, and then proceded to turn around and kill both of my panthers.

I sent in a second wave of panthers supported by a henschel strafing run.  It ate another panther and took half the health of the other before it was finally killed by the henschel.

I am having a lot of trouble believing that.  Replay?

I have a hard time believing that aswell. I remember sending an isu into a kt a friend of mine had in there spawn, the isu lost without much damage done to the kt.

i do not believe that "The unsupported ISU stayed stationary "

but with a microed ISU152 and some sight u can easy kill a KT without getting any damage at all because of the firefly range

i killed it with my little atht  tread shot it then just sat behind it  it was fun

moonblood wrote:
i do not believe that "The unsupported ISU stayed stationary "

but with a microed ISU152 and some sight u can easy kill a KT without getting any damage at all because of the firefly range

True, but honestly, how many Soviet tanks have firefly range, or any range bigger then 40 for that matter? Main problem here is not ISU but vanilla tanks, Tiger/King Tiger and Jagdpanther NEED bigger range, I hope Ostheer tanks will correct this, so at least Elephants will have a respectable range and better chance to counter spam.
As dogfighter778 said - there is always a way to trap a "beast"

The ISU 152 is not op.

It is an end game tank that cost 1000 mp and it is similar to the tiger.

A few points :

-It is very powerful
-It has a good front armor
BUT
-Very very slow
-Infantery can kill it easily by flanking it and if it is alone, it always dies before being able to get out.
-Has a very very bad rate of fire : 15 seconds! If you decrease its power, you have to increase its rate of fire or it becomes useless. It is actually not really useful right now.

It is more a support tank, this means that if he only has a ISU 152 don't worry but if he has many tanks and an ISU and you have nothing this don't mean that the ISU 152 is op but that you did shit before. Remember that it is an end game tank that cost 1000mp.
In 1vs1, any tank kill it even a panzer IV so I repeat it : it is a support tank. 

The flak comes in mid game. The only way to make the flak owning the ISU 152 is to have a spotter (then you see this tank coming at 1km/h) the canon will have the time to kill it. Moreover support your flak with paks extremely useful. And if you are PE, get marders.

Half of the posts I read on this Balance part are about ISU-152...
Everyone seams to have a problem with that tank - like they put Abrams in ww2 !?
As Iglooman said, ISU-152 is everything except superior,
and this is the last I`ll say about this.