2nd reworked Ostheer by Lord Rommel

Stronger or weaker is a thing of balancing :-*
But you can see this on "paper"; u had to proof
it ingame  ::)

I like your concepts for the most part, Rommel, but your doctrines are pretty lackluster.  I like critiquing and designing doctrines the most when it comes to faction brainstorming, so I'll focus my review on how well you designed your doctrines.  I'll go through all of them critiquing the aspects of an idea concerning it's usefulness and uniqueness. 

Heeresunterstützungsverbände ( Army support troops )
7. Flieger-Division: It works, although they are already part of the PE.  It's hard to design new units when there are so little to choose from.  "Fanaticism!" is the same thing as Zeal for the Terror doctrine.  "Sprint" is very similar to Fire-up, but again, not much you can do as a creator when you need an ability to deter suppression.  That being said, is it really necessary for this unit to have an ability to be immune to pinning?

Luftversorgung ( Airsupport ): Pretty boring as it's the exact same ability as "Supply Drop" that the American Airborne Company Commander receives.  This should be changed to something more unique.

- StuKa Einsatz ( StuKa Attack ): Not a bad idea, but this could use some more explanation.  Is it like the Henschel PanzerKnacker Support ability, where multiple planes fly in a targeted area and attack all units in the reticle?  Or do the Stukas attack units all over the map?  If it's the latter, I dislike this ability because there are no abilities in the game where you click a single button and every enemy unit is attacked -- there's always the skill of aiming and running the course of luck.

- prioritized Support: Is there a drawback?  Is it all resources?  It's kinda boring but it works.

- prioritized weapons: It works, but again this is pretty boring.

- sHeeresPzAbtl 503 "Feldherrnhalle": I like Tigers and I like the "Fear" and "Terror" abilities for this unit. 

Overall Thoughts On Heeresunterstützungsverbände ( Army support troops )
Some of the ideas you presented are decent and some are good, but a couple of them are lacking uniqueness or usefulness.  The three abilities I dislike are Luftversorgung, prioritized support, and prioritized weapons.  I dislike Luftversorgung because it's the same thing as "Supply Drop."  If you want an ability that gives supplies, try and develop a more unique way of doing this.

Prioritized Support and Prioritized Weapons are both useful abilities, but they are just so boring for gameplay.  Yes, we can see why they would be good, but they aren't very exciting.  In execution, they are both similar to Resource Blitz for the Blitzkrieg doctrine for Wehrmacht; not only is Resource Blitz an underused ability, but how would players feel if they had two abilities like that for the Blitzkrieg doctrine?  I feel your Luftversorgung doctrine could either replace Prioritized Support or Prioritized Weapons or both.


Heereseliteverbände ( Army's elite troops)


- „Horrido, Hurra!“: Same thing as Red Tide.  Should be replaced for the sake of variety and uniqueness.

- Grenadiere "Großdeutschland": I like the theme and abilities, but I'm noticing you're taking preexisting doctrine-specific abilities and placing them on your call-in units (such as Grenade Shower, which is the Assault Grenadier ability for Blitzkrieg doctrine and your above Fanaticism! for the Flieger-Division).  I kinda like it because it's a unique twist of using preexisting abilities since it's only using them for your elite call-in units.


- Panzerartillerie "Großdeutschland":  Good and I like it.

- Panzervernichtungsschlacht: It's good and a nice way of making your faction represent training that excels in combating enemy armor.  Nice flavor, uniqueness, and usefulness.

- Minenschlacht! ( Minebattle! ):  Not quite sure how I feel about this.  It's okay to use some preexisting abilities, but it seems like you're pushing it now.  This is the same ability as Teller Mines for the Tank Destroyer Tactics for PE, but also with the addition of the anti-infantry mines.  It just seems overkill.  UNLESS, are anti-infantry mines just the regular mines that engineers and pioneers can place?  Or are they something different and more powerful against infantry?  If they're regular mines, then this ability is okay, except for it's the same thing as the doctrine-specific Teller Mine ability.

- sHeeresPzJgAbtl 654: I like it.  Elefant is awesome.

Overall Thoughts for Heereseliteverbände ( Army's elite troops)
I like the doctrine for the most part, it’s not perfect, but some abilities need to be reaplced.  “Horrido, Hurra!” should be replaced, and the “Mine Battle” is a bit redundant.  As you may have noticed, I like ideas that are mechanically different and unique.  When Relic created the PE and British, they did quite a good job at avoiding the use of preexisting ideas.  That’s why I think the Ostheer should do the same thing.

Festungsverbände ( Fortress troops )

- Festungsbau: Cool, I like it.  Hopefully the faction dynamic, the way the faction is played in battle (British are defensive, PE are offensive, etc), isn’t upset by this increase in defense.  Other than that, it’s good.

- Festungskampf ( Fortification battle ): I like this ability a lot.  Thematically cool and mechanically useful and unique.

- 10.5cm leFh 18/40: Good.  Who doesn’t like 105 artillery?

- Stadtkampf ( Towncombat ): I like it, I had an idea almost exactly like this.  Useful and unqiue.

- Durchbruch! ( Breakthrough! ):  Not bad, it’s a lot like “Blitzkrieg Assault!” for the Wehrmacht except a little different.  Now quite sure why your defensive-related faction should receive this type of offensive ability.

- Der Gigant! ( the Giant! ): Eh, least liked ability in this doctrine.  Again, why would a doctrine based on defense receive this type of offensive ability?  It seems out of place.

Overall Thoughts On Festungsverbände ( Fortress troops )
This doctrine has some cool abilities, but there seems to be a conflict of defense and offense.  This is a mostly defense-related doctrine, so I’m not sure why this doctrine should receive offensive-related abilities like Der Gigant! And Breakthrough!  It’s as if giving “Blitzkrieg Assault!” for the Defensive Doctrine for the Wehrmacht. 


So, those are my thoughts for all 3 of your doctrines.  I hope you don’t take it personally as I’m providing a genuine critique and I only want the Ostheer to be the best they can be.  Viel Glück mein deutscher Freund!


 

Thanks for this analyses.

About the Heeresunterstützungsverbände:
Its a mix of Luftwaffen-Ideas and Tank-ambush.
My problem was that airforce is relay problematic
in coh. Either you call in all the attacking runs or
you call a airattack which dominate a hole sector.
Dont know which new ways could be used for the
airforce and so i picked up some old ideas and tried
to give them a new sense ;) So other problem was
the Tank-side; in fact King Tiger is a monster on
battlefield so i had to find ideas which could support
this tank side and dont make it much stronger ;)

I think about all this doctrines but at the moment
i cant finde better ideas ^^

About the Heereseliteverbände:
Horrido Hurra was an old idea from me ;)
That was not my first concept and so i picked
this old idea and put it in here. That red army use
such an idea too is a problem but i had found
an idea to replace or change the "horrdio hurra"
ability.

About the mines: that should be a combination of
normal mines and special mines. It should destroy
infantry AND tanks ;)

About the Festungsverbände:
The idea of "offensive" units and gameplay was
born out of the fact that the Wehrmacht tried often
to break open pockets or surrounded fortresses and
so here you could use it in a offensive way ;)

But thanks a lot for your comments.
I will rework the doctrines but at the moment
i'm searching for ideas  ;)

Hi
Just read through the Ostheer suggestion and i think it is great.
Just one suggestion perhaps Tiger I's... I think the Eastern Front without Tigers is unimaginable  :) They played a huge part in the Wehrmachts plans, and were very effective (if you disregard all the mechanical failures etc.) in German strategy and of course when they arrived they caused a lot of fear in the Red Army and were present throughout the war in the East (more or less) and played an active role in the majority of conflicts, i.e Kursk then the splinter action at Prokhorovka, at Leningrad etc. Obviously you can easily ignore this but this is just what i think ^^

Yes. Tiger I is important but how to implement?
To build? Call in unit?

My problem is when u make Tiger I to built then Tiger I of the old Wehrmachtdoctrins is quiet suspect. When Tiger I is a call in unit it will be like the old Wehrmacht.
So; were can i find the agreement between this?

Perhaps link Tiger I as unit to build when u chose the Heeresunterstützungsverbände or replace King Tiger with Tiger I??? I dont know :-\

Yeah true that poses a problem, but i would say perhaps replace the King Tiger with the Tiger I as Tiger I's played a larger role, you could maybe make it like the Tiger Ace like they used to have but one that could be given veterancy to try improve it's abilities in comparison to the Tiger II, and this as a call in unit, just make the price 1000mp?

Sry. I will not think about price and costs of my abilities ;) Thats one of those balancing things which had to be tested in a alpha version of such a concept ;)

Info: I had made two significant changes at the doctrin of the Heereseliteverbände ( Army's elite troops).

Last edited February 1, 2010 at 10:47 AM by Lord Rommel

Nice idea rommel!  :o
kinda like it!

The Ostheer without a Tiger is just not imageable. But it should be limited to 2 at the same time. because its still a tiger, and no other german faction can built tigers.. thats the only problem  :-\ would make the Ostheer the most powerfull faction about tanks - by far if it doesnt get fixxed.

why are there not late ausf. like Panzer III with 7,5-cm-KwK L/24?
or why a panther ausf. A ? why not a G or F ausf. ?

Last edited February 3, 2010 at 10:05 PM by Rokossovski

Tigers may have to be manufactured in standard and panthers can be called. That would be new.

Rokossovski wrote:
why are there not late ausf. like Panzer III with 7,5-cm-KwK L/24?
or why a panther ausf. A ? why not a G or F ausf. ?

My concept:
- Panzer III Ausf. J L/42

1. Ability:

Panzergranate 40: Fire a Panzergrenade 40 which makes more damage then the normal tankgrenades.
Side armor: Upgrade Panzer III Ausf. J with Panzerschürzen.
7,5cm L/24 KwK: Upgrade Panzer III with 7,5cm KwK - better against "soft targets".
-> Panzer III with 7,5cm KwK is part of my concept ;)

@Bauer:
In my eyes Tiger is stronger than Panther ( think about the legend of the Tiger! ) and so i think Tiger should be the "special" unit ;)

But panther have better gun to destroying tanks. WH have ostwin+PZIV+Panther, ostherr can have Wiblewind+PZIII+Tiger

And give ostherr some normal artylery (no stukas, neberwerfer or hotkis) some hovitzer!

Last edited February 4, 2010 at 8:17 AM by Bauer

I don't think Tiger I should be buildable. That would take away from the Blitz-Doc of WH.
Also, why not leave the Tiger completly out of the Ostheer?
If you want to have a Tiger, play WH. It's the same as for the Bergetiger: If you want it, play PE.

In my opinion, the OH should be something new. Not just a collection of some old "must-have"-units and some new "look-at-this-super-bad-tank"-units.
There have to be a nice concept, Rommel did it really nice.

But if stretched to its max, how about leaving every "old" vehicle/tank models out of the OH? (Except one or two, at least either Panther or Tiger should be in.)

Last edited February 4, 2010 at 8:10 PM by Aouch

Why take it out of the Ostheer? Tigers where an integral part of the German's Tank battalions on the eastern front...just trying to see your reasoning other then "It takes away from Blitzkrieg"

Yeah, I know Tigers were part of the Ostfront. But then again, you can also play as WH vs USSR. Or WH/OH vs USSR/USSR.

And I think it could be fun playing such an Ostheer without Tiger or even Pz IV. (Look at my concept, hinthint  ;))
There's still the Elefant. And for gods sake either have Tiger or Panther, but not both of them.

However, I agree with you that Ostheer should have some decent artillery, not self-probelled like PE or Nebel like WH but instead a good old hovi. LeFH18 (18/40?) would be perfect, and I think it's already part of Rommel's concept, isn't it?

The leHF18 is part of mine as a mobile howie I only have the Tiger as a Doctrine specific unit,  but you found some flaws with my Idea which I had no idea where there... like 8 man squads that only appear as 5 man and 4 man squads :p Though I did take your suggestion for an Ammo Muncher for AGN into consideration but you'll have to go look at the updated version on page 2 to get it... this is his thread :p though I have to say I enjoy some of his concepts ;D

The problem of such a Ostheer concept is that the Ostheer represent the hole eastern front and for the hole eastern front there are some symbole which should be inclouded.
I tried do do this with my concept  ;)

maybe we should combine our ideas O_o

hgghg4 wrote:
maybe we should combine our ideas O_o

right. And include the tiger in a well thought way :)

And I think it could be fun playing such an Ostheer without Tiger or even Pz IV. (Look at my concept, hinthint  ;))
This should be fun for russians players  :'(

Two ideas:

Panzer II Ausf L "Luchs"
Light scouting tank built at Panzergrenadier Command post. Would be fairly expensive (thinking maybe 45 fuel)

It would be a pretty fast tank, like one of the fastest tanks in the game. It would be armed with a better version of the Wehr Sdfkz 234's 20mm gun, which would be more effective aganist vehicles. (it could also have coax MG)It would have okay armor, maybe slightly worse then Stuart level, but it would have good skirmishing abilities. I cant really think of any upgrades, except maybe a flamm upgrade or longer barreled gun.

37mm Pak 35/36
Cheap at gun buildable at Panzergren command post. It would be wheeled around very quickly, deploy very quickly and fire at a very rapid rate. However, it obviously would have average penetration and damage, and would need rear and side hits to be effective aganist more then armored cars and light tanks.

Ability: Pzgr 43 Hollow Charge rocket


you remember in band of brothers when they fired those shaped charged out of the front barrel of the pak 35/36, like a panzerfaust?

well after the panzer command base if built, this ability becomes aviable for 50 munis. It would basically be a slow aiming (have to put it ont he front barrel)single rocket shot fired out of the gun that would do MASSIVE damage to enemy tanks, however, at aneven shorter range then the standard gun.

also, maybe for an early doctrinal call in, Panzer 1. A fast tankw ith paper thin armor that cant eeen protect it from grenades, the PZ1 features 2 bunker equivilent MG42's, with all the supression that would apply from that.

Last edited February 5, 2010 at 3:13 AM by guynumber7

hgghg4 wrote:
maybe we should combine our ideas O_o

Maybe we really should do so...
Mine for example was once based upon Lord Rommel's. Unit-Pools are still there, I'm also fine with the "British" way of HQ-trucks.
However, I disagree with some of his Doctrins and veterancy-suggestion. Also I have a whole different theory of units that should be used and how the Ostheer should be in general.

I'll PM you to avoy spamming Rommel's Concept.

Last edited February 5, 2010 at 9:24 AM by Aouch

how bout we bring Lord Rommel into this as well???

i hawe an idea to make an thread which will be called like  Ostheer finalizing concept we all will be writing ideas and the most popular will go to first post as an edit and what we get at the end is a whole concept made by most people,because what we now have are concepts of one person and ideas of many people so we must get them all to gather,what do you think?

i thing that is it that reworked version is VERY GOOD:)

a well thought concept indeed, but were is the amazing Knüppeldamm ability gone???
i liked this idea a lot (full speed in own territory)
would be historical and useful for defense as well as offense (faster to the front) so plese bring it back, maybe inted of a more "boring" ability like the airdrop of fuel :)

I also think the 2.8 cm Spzb squeeze bore at gun could be included somehow. It would be like a heavy anti tank rifle that has to deploy, but would be great aganist light vehicles and tanks.

Lord Rommel, it's a really good work! It would be very nice, if we will have this Ostheer in game. My vote is for your doctrine. My congratiulations, Kamerad!  ;)

Great ideas, I think parts of yours work really well, but obvisouly some parts of others are better, i think yours should get mixed into the final piece though. For example your vetrancy system, thats a good idea.

Also many of your unit ideas are great, but i have seen just a good ideas elsewhere aswell.

Well; what for ideas u dont like/ u think arent good?
I already said that i think that my doctrins arent so good but the "body" is extreme good and "balanced" but that is just my opinion ;)

Very nice concept  ;)
But I think the doctrines, as already mentioned, are a bit "über"  ;D
For example that there will be more than one Tiger II per game or the infantry with its 3xStg. and the 42er.
With the Jagdtiger you are right, even if I would really like to shoot some sovjet tanks with its 128mm gun.

PS: "Panzergrenadiergefechtsstand" certainly was the "Unwort des Jahres" 1944  :o

I like this concept. My prediction is that the Ostheer will be this. Lord Rommel, your ostheer concept is great. I am for Tiger being in Ostheer, not against it. I hope Mr. Scruff's Jagdtiger will not be deleted or destroyed.

Good concept, but what about the recruing? I think the most popular doctrine will be the Heereseliteverbände doctrine, so you won't loose any equipment during the motorization... 2 Tigers on the field... My dreams would come true  ;D ;D

Lord wrote:
Info: Tiger I nearly so strong like JS II ( same level! ).

Does it mean the Tiger I in your concept will be differ from the Wehr Tiger?

Would be strange if you play as ostheer and your teamate as wehr has a stronger Tiger than you!  :P

Better the same tank but will cost fuel or other ressources....

Well. My wish is that there will be more then ONE Tiger at the same time on the battlefield. I mean Tiger-groups fought all the time in a closed group. A single Tiger is so
"stupid" because he couldnt use all the typical german
tank-tactics AND just one tank is nearly helpless on the battlefield.
So out of the historical view i want more Tigers on the battlefield ( e.g. two ^^ ) and when that mean that one Tiger had to be weaker in comparison with Wehrmacht "Ace-Tiger" so then it had to be. But when two Tigers are a little bit stronger ( Tiger-group ^^ ) then the single Wehrmacht Tiger then i had a cool new Tiger-battlegroup.

About recrewing; That is not possible by game mechanic and so Ostheer wont be able to recrew anything.

But thanks for all the feedback.
I'm happy that so much of you like my "Ostheer" ;D

It's be an off-topic, and you can delete this later, but why won't we do a petition, for Relic, to help you guys solving the recruing system? I'm sure, there is much better, to try it, than wait what's heapaning. I'm sure, there is a critical mass, when the company agrre to it. Lets write down, that every person, who sign the petiton won't buy any relic game in the future. Maybe they will afraid a bit, and do some tech support for you. The company leaders care about the profit and I'm sure they will consider this. It's time to we fans do something for you guys, I'm sure there be 300-400 people (or more) who sing it. What you guys think?

Lord wrote:
Well. My wish is that there will be more then ONE Tiger at the same time on the battlefield. I mean Tiger-groups fought all the time in a closed group. A single Tiger is so
"stupid" because he couldnt use all the typical german
tank-tactics AND just one tank is nearly helpless on the battlefield.
So out of the historical view i want more Tigers on the battlefield ( e.g. two ^^ ) and when that mean that one Tiger had to be weaker in comparison with Wehrmacht "Ace-Tiger" so then it had to be. But when two Tigers are a little bit stronger ( Tiger-group ^^ ) then the single Wehrmacht Tiger then i had a cool new Tiger-battlegroup.

You don´t need to make the tiger weaker, cause it will replace the panther. As i understand you have than only 2 tigers and the Ferdinand.
So 3 heavy tanks max on the battlefield for your doctrine.

With Wehr Biltz doctrine for example you can build a tiger AND you have no unit limit for the panther.
tiger has pop 14 and panther pop 12.
you could have a big battlegroup of 1 tiger and 4or5 panthers at the same time for blitz doc.

Your Doc has only 3 heavy tanks, so it wouldn´t be good to make the ost tigers weaker.

@TheReaper: The team is still in contact with RELIC ( u can this for example with the interview ;) ) and so we had to wait.
At the moment the recrewing is a problem and so at the moment i had "implement" this situation at the concept.

And with the Tiger-Limit; well. At the end such a point would be a problem for balancing and at the moment my concept is just one of a high number here at the forum ^^

Not sure how updated this posting by Herr Rommel is, but is this a good idea of how our boys in gray will look?

Whoops! This thread was buried a long ago... I'll lock this... If LordRommel wants he can unlock it ;).

@Griptonix
You should sent him a pm instead :-\.