Russian MOtars Op

The russian motars are firing too qucikly.
with so greater dammage, takes 5 short for defensive bunker to go down, Mgs with one or two shot, there is no way  you can MG mount an defensive, since building troops is an waste, motar kills volks and grendier squards just as quick,
i tryed axist motar to counter motar, yet the range of axist motar is not suppior as i thought it would be, but the russians could HIt from even more further.
Impossible to advance, since russians had soo many man siting next to their heavy motar, i try building fast t3.
by the time i have nerb. in a 2v2, one of them has already got an T-35. an joke fest.

we need to Tune down those motars, either fire slower, and also have shorter rannge, or just have it costing 20 - 30 minution. also those artierly from the russian commander squards.

Aw c'mon, I love those mortars! It feels good blowing entire squads of grenadiers. I actually blew up a whole squad of them with a Guard grenade.

the morter is OP, if you dont see that you havent played coh before.  It needs to be less accurate and fire slower if it has howie shell, otherwise just change the shell back to normal morter.

Another idea is to limit the number of heavy mortars the russain can control. Just played a 2v2 against the commies and they pretty much make axis infantry useless.

To be honest through out the mortar all together and replace it with the Bm-37 give it a high rate of fire but low range or vice versa that way it is a small caliber like all the other mortars.

Yes I agree that the mortars are OP. Feels more like a 25lb howitzer  ;D

Meh its not that bad. Just get up to the soviet inf and youll see. It kills them more than it kills you due to low soviet survivability.

Just keep your troops moving like you would with a regular mortar

Heh, more of my own troops died to my mortars than the Wehrmact did.  Get up close, and our troops catch friendly fire.  It makes defenses a nightmare.

It does need a longer time in between shots though.

Soviet Mortars aren't recrewable. Hit them once with... anything, and it's 325 manpower down the drain.

GermanSteel wrote:
Soviet Mortars aren't recrewable. Hit them once with... anything, and it's 325 manpower down the drain.

Hit a wehr/us sniper with anything and 340 mp down the drain... doesn't really makes sense what you say :)

More troops die from ur motars fair enough if u want to send your own troops into your own barrage . Who to balame . And nobody uses free artliery units that fires such great barrage . And still be used as an assult unit.  Ok let's compare Stuka . Good range weak against tanks . Nerbs good for pinging . And some dammage . Heroic charge means walking away from it then comes those massive off map free motar barrage. Any mg or motar units will die intantly. Worse then one second arty . But defensive arty cost 125 munitions for same effect but only to be used on resource points not any where u want and free. Have all tech from munitions dosent mean u deserve so much free powerful arty . That means axist officer deserve same treatment top? Or all axist upgrades cost fuel a lot of fuel . Dose it mean they get free oil barrels fly from the sky? To burn down any thing in it's way . Russian motars right now makes avre churchill tank a joke . Paying for every shot it fires with the same but slower Russian dammage . Russian motars aldo makes build stuh a joke . 

Maybe it would be a good idea to make mortars work as emplacements, British style? That way, they are powerful but not able to move everywhere to apply that power.

They already work like emplacements, they cant retreat so its not so hard to hunt them down, i think the issue is that they cost only 325 manpower, and they basically have the power of a 105 howitzer. ex 550 man and 30 ammo would be more fair, and they should have the same range as american mortars.

Katyusha should also be more expensive and maybe have higher command points.

I'd say increase the spread a lot and it will be a lot better.

increase the spread of what?
MGs or man
, i did
but the mOtar is so accurate, it shots one short kills 3 man, as axist you just cant simply recrew it again and agian, there is no other ways to defeat it either, you either have to charge your guys accross. AT light infantry or.. huge army squard. adn a reinforce base they have..
german motars no longer have range advatage, its dammage is no where close, and it dosent kill the russian motar, because that howie motar will destory everything in its path. in a short armound of time, with out having to recharge.

I don`t understand why changing Soviet mortars? Yes they are little overpowered but if you didn`t noticed, Soviets don`t have MG`s, retreat, they can`t secure OP points... they have to rely on something !?
Support Barracks are not cheap, so any German player can deploy fast moving units like Sdkfz 222 or 223 or 251 Halftrack before mortar even get`s a chance to enter battlefield.
Easy way to destroy a mortar are Motorcycles, Snipers and  light vehicles.
Honestly... mortar is one of few units (if not the only one) that are effective against Germans. If you nerf that, what`s left?

Edit: I just recorded a replay with my friend, Soviets spammed mortars but to no avail, so don`t tell me mortars or Soviet`s are OP.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IG7G7ZTF

Last edited January 22, 2010 at 5:03 PM by Capt. Malashenko

The accuracy compared to conventional mortars is quite frankly awful, and as mentioned earlier the low survivability of Russian infantry makes for a lot of friendly casualties.

However, the fire rate might be a bit too high considering it's sheer damage output.

kill the crew capture it and russians die fast !

It is not op, it is very easy to counter (ht mortar, mortar) because it has not a high range

I think he means the accuracy, if it were up to me I'd lower the accuracy and make them a little more expensive.

the Russian mortars are very powerful, HOWEVER, if you play as PE you can easily counter by rushing the hordes of russian troops with your superior infantry. I would just rush the mortar.

i think it would be more balanced if they increased the cost, or made you unlock them...

firefree wrote:
the Russian mortars are very powerful, HOWEVER, if you play as PE you can easily counter by rushing the hordes of russian troops with your superior infantry. I would just rush the mortar.

Brotip: Do NOT leave PE squads immobile ANYWHERE near a Russian mortar. A single hit will obliterate a perfectly healthy Panzer Grenadier squad.

Rushing the mortars is the best choice indeed.

I bet before this day ends Russian will be "under/powered"  :P

All german artilly is much better against the sowjets than against other Allies cause of the none retread they get the full load of the german artillery. So it is just fair to give the sowjets cheap artillery. And thats only one point u guys mentionet so many I just wanted to add that. yeah and it forces to micro cause u have to splitt your forces or your army get killed by one shoot^^ also operationla reserve could be great for manage/handle them... Its an improvement for the game

Did anyone else notice the mortar has no minimum distance to fire?  It can literally drop shells on top of itself.

Also, it's incredibly overpowered.  Nerf it all around...decrease rate of fire, decrease damage, increase spread.

QuoteHit a wehr/us sniper with anything and 340 mp down the drain... doesn't really makes sense what you say

Are you seriously trying to compare a sniper's survivability with a mortar's and then tell me I'M the one not making sense?

The sniper has cloak, the sniper can retreat, and the sniper can move regularly. The soviet mortar stays in place while firing, cannot avoid a threat, is fully visible, gives itself away from outside of LoS, as it fires... etc.

I liked, how it is made in game. Long to replace/prepare for shooting, but dreadly powerfull against enemy soldiers

and fortifications. Had a exellent range, and average (or even bad) accuracy (german infantry pack usually hit only by 3rd-4th shot).

Modellers - it need to add original model, because You use now a model of german GrW34? :) I was amazed, when saw a crew member, who pick up a 250 kg!!! mortar only with 1 hand!!! and run like rabbit :)

For whinners, who cry about overpowerness:

It is Strategy video game, but it supposed to be WW II RTS! :) Dont forget about it, when You are talking only about balance.

As You could see, PM-38 (DAMNED IT IS NOT M1938!!!) is UNDERMODELLED, because it has very bad accuracy in game.

Compare to Ordnance ML 3-inch mortar,81.2mm (UK)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 51kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 2,560m)
-PM-38 has much heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 3.5kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 20 rpm)

Compare to GrW 34, 81,4 mm (Germany)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 62kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 3.5 kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 15-25 rpm)
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 2,400m)

M2 Infantry Mortar, 60mm (US)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 19kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 1.33 kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 18 rpm)
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 1,815m)

Compare to M1 mortar, 81mm (USA)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 61.5 kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 3kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 18-30 rpm)
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 3,000m)

Compare to M2 4.2-Inch Mortar, 107mm (USA)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 151kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has BETTER rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 5 rpm)
-PM-38 has wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 4,050m)
-PM-38 has heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 11kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.

Compare to GrW 42, 120mm (Germany)
It was a 100% full copy of PM-38, and had all the same. But Appeared, when Soviet army already had  PM-43 improved

mortar.

Last edited January 23, 2010 at 5:54 AM by Zerstorerflieger

The russian mortar at the current version is insane. If you can get it to fire in the correct place, THEY ARE HARD COUNTERS TO PUMAS

Im sorry, but WHAT!? How is an indirect fire unit a HARD counter to anything. Especially a mortar that hard counters an armored scout car...

As Zers was saying, it would be totally fine for this to be an exmplacement or something along those lines, but it makes NO sense. For this kind of damage to exist, it NEEDS to have insane movement penatlies, if any movement at all.

Last edited January 23, 2010 at 6:03 AM by doomlord52

doomlord - I served in artillery, and very familiar directly with this PM-38 (now it calls PM-120 or 2B11 120mm mortar)

It is possible, and NOT HARD to fire and HIT THE MOVING TARGET with indirect fire (with mortars is in really it calles HALF-INDIRECT FIRE). It is just need to recognise a speed of moving target, thats all :)

And, sorry - but PUMA is not a Tiger armored, andits armor is not a problem to smash with even near miss of 16kg shell.

Trust me, I saw a results of firing to armored vechicles by my own eyes.

Also, it must have 2-wheels devise for move, wich is extremly simple to handle and use only with cre of 3 (not 5!!!) men. The time between "moving-on-wheels" and "ready-to-fire" is 30 seconds!!!!!!!!

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To DEVS:

I have a full documentation about PM-38, scale drawings, original service manuals e.t.c.

If You want them for a ingame model of PM-38 in game - sent me a PM and I'll sent You them by email. Of cource free :)

Cheers!

Last edited January 23, 2010 at 10:12 AM by Zerstorerflieger

The mortar is overpowered it hits like artillery and its pretty damn accurate.  Not that it needs to be inaccurate but it needs to do alot less damage, dunno what you guys were thinking about when you sent the mortars into the game live with that damage.

On defensive maps my base lasts about 1-2mins because of the OP strength of the mortar teams.

Surihtanil wrote:
..The mortar is overpowered it hits like artillery and its pretty damn accurate....

1. Do You ever saw a blasts of 3,5kg shell of 81mm mortar and 16kg shell of 120mm mortar to compare it with "artillery"? Blast of 120mm HE shell is almost near as huge as blast of 152mm Howitzer shell.

2. So, I must shot all aimers from my mortars in my last game, because they were an accurate as blindmen. :)

Either way Russian artillery is over powered in the game and this isn't real life, it needs balancing.

Artillerist wrote:

Surihtanil wrote:
..The mortar is overpowered it hits like artillery and its pretty damn accurate....

1. Do You ever saw a blasts of 3,5kg shell of 81mm mortar and 16kg shell of 120mm mortar to compare it with "artillery"? Blast of 120mm HE shell is almost near as huge as blast of 152mm Howitzer shell.

Do you know ?
Shell size is 1 thing. But the impact speed is more important !

yeah they're op, just try to capture them ;]

indu wrote:

Artillerist wrote:

Surihtanil wrote:
..The mortar is overpowered it hits like artillery and its pretty damn accurate....

1. Do You ever saw a blasts of 3,5kg shell of 81mm mortar and 16kg shell of 120mm mortar to compare it with "artillery"? Blast of 120mm HE shell is almost near as huge as blast of 152mm Howitzer shell.

Do you know ?
Shell size is 1 thing. But the impact speed is more important !

Is not important at all :) We are talkig about MORTAR SHELLS, dont You remember? Shell is not flying, it is falling almost vertically from the sky. ;) It never hit directly to soldier, but blast near them and hit very wide area with splinters...

Artillerist wrote:
doomlord - I served in artillery, and very familiar directly with this PM-38 (now it calls PM-120 or 2B11 120mm mortar)

It is possible, and NOT HARD to fire and HIT THE MOVING TARGET with indirect fire (with mortars is in really it calles HALF-INDIRECT FIRE). It is just need to recognise a speed of moving target, thats all :)

And, sorry - but PUMA is not a Tiger armored, andits armor is not a problem to smash with even near miss of 16kg shell.

Yes, but do you think you could kill an APC, WHILE its shooting at you, with a mortar? I have no problem that a mortar can kill vehichles, as the wehr mortar has killed M8s before, but it pretty much instantly looses if the M8 gets some shots at it.

I don't want to burst anyones bubble, but no serious CoH player gives two shits about historical accuracy in comparison to GAME BALANCE.  This thing is completely OP, especially when spammed.

To be honest, I don't see how it can be balanced in and I'm in favor of removing it completely and replacing it with  a light or medium mortar to be in line with what other factions get.

If you must insist on keeping this in the game, for the love of god change the model to show what it truly is:  a 600lb wheeled artillery piece.  There's no way it should fire so fast nor move so fast.

I wasn't familiar with this mod at all before the release the other day.  Were their any prerequisites for the beta testers?  As in, must be X rank to prove you have proficiency in the game?  Honestly, this type of requirement should exist in here.  This forum is already overflowing with useless noob posts advocating terrible balance decisions.

anyway if you want  realistic game then you should make Finnland 4 coh too ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

doomlord52

Agree.

dmastri
***If you must insist on keeping this in the game, for the love of god change the model to show what it truly is:  a 600lb wheeled artillery piece.  There's no way it should fire so fast nor move so fast.***

Thats what I was talking about!

I think a few things are over powered that the Russians have for the most part they can be beat in 1v1 but its tough.  My most concern is the mortars because I enjoy playing smaller maps and the Russians mortar teams destroy my base and everything else before I can even do anything.

They can keep them in the game just tone down how much damage they do verse buildings, tanks & infantry. 

Artillerist wrote:
I liked, how it is made in game. Long to replace/prepare for shooting, but dreadly powerfull against enemy soldiers

and fortifications. Had a exellent range, and average (or even bad) accuracy (german infantry pack usually hit only by 3rd-4th shot).

Modellers - it need to add original model, because You use now a model of german GrW34? :) I was amazed, when saw a crew member, who pick up a 250 kg!!! mortar only with 1 hand!!! and run like rabbit :)

For whinners, who cry about overpowerness:

It is Strategy video game, but it supposed to be WW II RTS! :) Dont forget about it, when You are talking only about balance.

As You could see, PM-38 (DAMNED IT IS NOT M1938!!!) is UNDERMODELLED, because it has very bad accuracy in game.

Compare to Ordnance ML 3-inch mortar,81.2mm (UK)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 51kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 2,560m)
-PM-38 has much heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 3.5kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 20 rpm)

Compare to GrW 34, 81,4 mm (Germany)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 62kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 3.5 kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 15-25 rpm)
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 2,400m)

M2 Infantry Mortar, 60mm (US)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 19kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 1.33 kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 18 rpm)
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 1,815m)

Compare to M1 mortar, 81mm (USA)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 61.5 kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has MUCH heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 3kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.
-PM-38 has lower rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 18-30 rpm)
-PM-38 has MUCH wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 3,000m)

Compare to M2 4.2-Inch Mortar, 107mm (USA)
-PM-38 is MUCH heavier (235kg vs 151kg), and because of this longer reload and prepare-for-shooting time.
-PM-38 has BETTER rate of fire (10-15 rpm vs 5 rpm)
-PM-38 has wider maximum range of fire (6,000m vs 4,050m)
-PM-38 has heavier and deadly HE shell (16kg vs 11kg), anti-personnel effecy was dreadly powerfull.

Compare to GrW 42, 120mm (Germany)
It was a 100% full copy of PM-38, and had all the same. But Appeared, when Soviet army already had  PM-43 improved

mortar.

Do you mean this PM-38 mortar?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM-38

Because if so, you are completely wrong on everything you are saying about it.

o man, mortar are overpower man. its like a Hummel, blows everything. and it has 5 people in a squad.

You're going in the wrong directions, yes you should made the weapons kind of a historical accurate but the gameplay and balance should be your priority.

About capture the mortar... well I was chasing it around the outpost with mp40 volks and 1 conscripts squad was inside and they can reinforce the crew faster than I was able to kill them lol

gameplay>realism

please keep such realism discussions out of balancing discussions

russin mortar fireing rate should be reduced and maybe its range too

508PIR:

You should say THX to translator, who made that article in WiKi :)

Mortars of Red Army/Soviet Army:


"Ротные миномёты - РМ" - "Company support mortars - RM"
50mm RM-38/40
50mm RM-41

"Батальонные миномёты - БМ" - "Batallion support mortars - BM"
82mm BM-37
82mm BM-41

"Полковые миномёты - ПМ" - "Regiment support mortars - PM"
107mm (Mountain) M-38
120mm PM-38/41/43

"Корпусные миномёты" - "Corps support mortars"
160mm  M-43

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moonblood wrote:
russin mortar fireing rate should be reduced and maybe its range too

120mm mortar should have
at least 1,5 or 2 longer fire range
near 1/2 fire rate
twice fire power
compare to 81mm, such as americans and germans have in game. Otherwise, it was useless to model "120mm mortar" - the unique feature of Sov's, and just add "another 82mm" to the game.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 8:52 AM by Artillerist

For the most part the Soviet faction is almost perfectly balanced vs the vanilla Axis factions, yet the only real exception to this rule is that bloody Soviet mortar. Seriously, with virtually every single shell it lobs an entire German infantry section is reduced to giblets! This mortar needs to be nerfed ASAP as i'm finding my entire anti soviet strategy is based around trying to (usually unsuccesfully) counter the mortar.

Well. Any sort of mortar reduces soviet infantry to giblets. Ive had a single mortar take out large chunks of 4 squads of conscripts and 1 command squad.

Now, without "Barrage", 120mortar is a piece of useless shit :), wich is able only for friendlyfire :)

You can barrage once it is upgraded.